When a player earns TKOS the only way out of it should be the timer, no forgiveness on death.

Yea I know, old suggestion.

Reason: A common exploit for attacking in a station sector NFZ is to swarm, let the SF kill you (removing TKOS), then come back in from a nearby station with no SF after you, swarm again, repeat. And when the attacker returns the defender can't shoot first.

The timer is not that much of a burden to people who get TKOS via a mistake.

After 3 times I think it's a 24 hour TKOS isn't it?

+1

As look no hands says, 3 kills of a non hated/kos player in a guarded sector results in a 24 hour tkos.
And violating the NFZ six times in 24 hours also results in a 24 hour tkos.

. And when the attacker returns the defender can't shoot first.

This is incorrect. You have 15 minutes from the last shot to defend yourself. So even though the tkos up for the attacker, the defender can still shoot and kill the attacker; even in the nfz, without experiencing a nfz violation. .

Right, you can shoot first, my mistake, unless you are in the NFZ and can't defend yourself at all. When they come after you again in the NFZ they can waltz right up to you because the SF is ignoring them, even though you've been swarmed by the same character multiple times in the last 5-10 minutes. The 3 kills in 24 hrs threshold doesn't help if they don't get any PKs.

Intentionally 'losing to win' seems like a bad game mechanic to support. What I mean is that currently the attacker gets a benefit from letting the SF kill him after his attack, or I get a benefit from letting the attacker kill me three times. It's immersion-breaking.

Right, you can shoot first, my mistake, unless you are in the NFZ and can't defend yourself at all.

As I said, this is incorrect. If they have attacked you already, you have 15 minutes to defend yourself. That 15 minutes doesn't go away until they die by your hands. (This of course is due to a suggestion you made a few years back). Everytime you shoot them, or they shoot you, the 15 minute timer is reset. Even in the No Fire Zone, you are can shoot them without repercussions.

You just can't shoot anyone else, including the SF. So make sure your attack is surgical.

Surgical can be tough when there are a group of attackers. Do you have an objection to the suggestion or just want to keep the discussion to my errors? I'd like you opinion on the suggestion.

I doubt that this would give you any meaningful protection. We can test this sometime if you want.

I'd bet that I could jump in, launch swarms, and the swarms would impact, or miss, before the SF would destroy me. I could probably even get out to jump distance before the swarms impact, and simply jump out before the SF kills me.

For the sake of testing, we could do this at a Corvus station.

Do you have an objection to the suggestion

I don't necessarily have an objection to it. I just wanted the thread to be fully factual. In fact, i have suggest in the past that I think Tkos's should be served in real played time. So logging off would stop the timer.

In fact, i have suggest in the past that I think Tkos's should be served in real played time. So logging off would stop the timer.

That would definitely be a significant change, and one that I wouldn't object to, as long as it didn't cause any other major problems.

When a player earns TKOS the only way out of it should be the timer, no forgiveness on death.

I'm generally in favor of making TKOS a stricter concept, and I don't have a problem with this in general, but I will bring up a couple of related points:

The Corvus issue comes up a bit. If a player is fully KoS, and achieves TKOS in Corvus, what is the result when they die? Do they hang in limbo, unable to respawn anywhere? That kind of sucks.

The other notable challenge, is that some players will likely exploit this to get newer people to kill them, the newbies are flagged with TKOS, then they're killed by the SF (or whatever), and then get bounced out of their home nation (as they'll be respawned while still locally KoS). This leaves a new player feeling pretty confused, as they've been suddenly flung across the galaxy for reasons they don't clearly understand.

Reason: A common exploit for attacking in a station sector NFZ is to swarm, let the SF kill you (removing TKOS), then come back in from a nearby station with no SF after you, swarm again, repeat. And when the attacker returns the defender can't shoot first.

^Is this the main reason for the suggestion?

If so it would seem your main concern revolves around capships having shields dropped and being nibbled on slowly by swarms in station sectors without capship docks. Because getting swarmed in any other ship in a station sector is 1) easy to avoid by docking and 2) if they kill you and you have decent standing, they have bigger problems than TKOS. If they kill you and you don't have decent standing, the onus is on you for not having that deterrent.

I think it's important to make this distinction because the requested "fix" affects several other very significant situations as Incarnate pointed out. I'm not sure it's worthwhile... perhaps there is some other way of addressing the problem, or perhaps it's not a problem.

Greenwall you have it right mostly. But it's not just capship defense. Basically any activity at a station can easily be disrupted if attacker death leads to instant faction forgiveness.

Regarding Corvus, different rules have always applied there, no change needed at Corvus. There also might be an argument for not making this change at nation stations but I see no problem with including them. If a noob screws up and shoots someone at a nation station in a non-capitol sector they already go to Corvus, so I don't think this change would unduly effect them, the timer will be exhausted before they get back.

Defending against the 3 to 9 attackers I sometimes get is a lot of fun and a good challenge. An earlier suggestion was to just keep track of who I can shoot because of them being tkos, but I can't read that fast during a battle and doubt I can retain who let the SF kill them, without error, for from 10 minutes to sometimes over an hour. I have to do that successfully every time, the attackers only have to get lucky once.

I see...well you raise another issue that bears consideration:

Keeping track of multiple targets' "penalty-free retribution" status. I agree it's really difficult (and shouldn't be).

I agree. Keeping track of who can be defended against is a chore. Especially in station furballs. There should be an option to list pilots/ and ships who can still be shot and the time left to shoot them. Likewise, attackers should see be able to see on their hud (if they choose) how much time is left as well.

The only current way to get this information is to log off and log back in.

I think the problem that really needs to be addressed is keeping track of the self defense flag. Maybe someone could come up with a suggestion to deal with that?

If a noob screws up and shoots someone at a nation station in a non-capitol sector they already go to Corvus, so I don't think this change would unduly effect them, the timer will be exhausted before they get back.

Actually.. they don't, do they? Because TKOS is reset on death, when they're killed they stilll respawn at their normal station. If the "TKOS cleared on-death" is removed, it's far more likely that they'll still be under TKOS when they get killed, and that will cause them to be bounced to Corvus.

I'm not really 100% sure about the current state of the above situation, although I know the above issue has come up before, and I thought it was a bit less prevalent currently.. more-so than it would be with the change being described.

In a non-capitol system the TKOS is reset at death but after the re-spawn location has been changed.

If I'm in Deneb (and homed there) and I damage a station guard and trigger TKOS, if I get blown up I re-spawn in Corvus.

If I'm homed at Orion and get into a dust up in the local NFZ, trigger TKOS, and get blown up, I don't re-spawn at that station.

Yes, if I'm in say Nyrius, and shoot a Bio-Com npc (and homed at that, or other Bio-Com stations) i will get sent to Crovus.
Corvus will send you back to Corvus, and Say shooting at a Inuebis (in Odia C2) or Tunguska (Odia H-6) it will send me back to Dau L-11 or Arta J-12 (mostly J-12)

If you're homed with the nation you violate the NFZ with, your home gets reset "Now", so when you die the TKoS gets cleared, however your home has already been changed.


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/390332362678075394/778422732819136512/unknown.png


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> Look... no hands
> I think the problem that really needs to be addressed is keeping track of the self defense flag. Maybe someone could come up with a suggestion to deal with that?

I think this might be use-full as well, players are already marked local hate, but without a plugin to identify this it can be a little tricky while in the midst of things.

I think the timer for ending TKOS is a simpler solution, tracking self-defense flag in a NFZ is dicey.

Yes. That's why it was added in 1.8.536:

- All TempKoS timers are now operating on game-time (time spent logged-in, not wall-clock time) and do not end upon death.