Forums » Suggestions
You can't see heat. You can only see light that warm objects produce. The problem is that the stars in the background and in the forground if there is a "sun" in the sector produce far greater quantities of infrared light than any warm body will come close to. It would be far easier to find a candle flame in a forest fire than the infrared light produced by a room tempature object against the background radiation of all the stars unfiltered by an atmosphere.
CT, any way of "compromising" vision can be used to "compromise" any reasonably quick meathod of heat detection (ie infrared light).
FM, any heat created by direct light from a star would make you show up the same as all the asteroids, planets, moons, etc in the sector. Also CT was talking about was to detect a ship that had all its systems other than life support powered down, so there would be no need to deal with heat generated by the engine, only the body heat and the heat used to keep the cockpit at room tempature.
All of the science aside a long range uber detection system with one minor weakness would nerf the idea of stealth.
CT, any way of "compromising" vision can be used to "compromise" any reasonably quick meathod of heat detection (ie infrared light).
FM, any heat created by direct light from a star would make you show up the same as all the asteroids, planets, moons, etc in the sector. Also CT was talking about was to detect a ship that had all its systems other than life support powered down, so there would be no need to deal with heat generated by the engine, only the body heat and the heat used to keep the cockpit at room tempature.
All of the science aside a long range uber detection system with one minor weakness would nerf the idea of stealth.
All stealth needs to do is mask your radar and shift the ship's colors out of our spectrum range. Now, some ships should be able to have really powerful infrared 'flashlights', these would make it slightly easier to see ships and objects depending on the distance. The down side being of course, a ship searching in the infrared spectrum would be able to spot you from much much farther away, a double edged sword.
Here is where all this wierd scientific 'babble' that I occasionaly mention comes in.
If a spaceship doesn't find a way to radiate heat, it melts. Literally. Of course, it cooks the inhabitants before hand, but it will literally melt. The more powerful the energy source in a spaceship, the more quickly that will happen. Our spaceships have generators. Powerful ones.
On the earth, when we want to keep something from getting to hot, we use a radiator. In space, that doesn't work. There is no air to radiate heat too. You can't exchange heat with anything. The only way to cool down is to radiate electromagnetic energy.
You see all that bright light coming out of the back of our space ships? That isn't 'just' to make it go. That's to keep it from turning into a ball of molten slag.
To be stealthy a space ship has to do two things. First, it has to minimize the ammount of extra heat it produces. That means turning off the generators and consuming a minimal ammount of power. You store the energy to restart the generator (presumably a fusion plant) in a superconducting coil (your battery). You turn your lifesupport down to the minumum, and you get comfortable in the cold. You get as much of the surface of your ship as possible down to the temperature of the universe, or close to it.
Of course, that's not always possible and you are still consuming enough power at all times to keep your personal (biologicals and computers) alive. So you find a way to dump your heat discretely. One of the best ways to do this is channel your heat into a heatsink on the ship, and then use the heat sink to power a highly efficient laser. You then convery your heat into a very narrow beam of some sort of discrete radiation that wouldn't look all that suspicious on a sensor (maybe you pretend to be a pulsar). Because there is no atmospheric scaterring, you are only detectable on the direct line of your laser 'radiators'. And even if they do get detected, it might just look like a brief flash of background radiation.
As you can imagine, ships could be built to be more or less efficient at all this.
As you power up, you get brighter and brighter, but you do your best to channel all of your EM out behind you, so that whatever you are looking at can't see you.
I keep telling people that bright thing on the back of the ship isn't an engine (or rather, it isn't _only_ an engine), but they always think I'm goofy. Sooner are later someone is going to believe me.
If a spaceship doesn't find a way to radiate heat, it melts. Literally. Of course, it cooks the inhabitants before hand, but it will literally melt. The more powerful the energy source in a spaceship, the more quickly that will happen. Our spaceships have generators. Powerful ones.
On the earth, when we want to keep something from getting to hot, we use a radiator. In space, that doesn't work. There is no air to radiate heat too. You can't exchange heat with anything. The only way to cool down is to radiate electromagnetic energy.
You see all that bright light coming out of the back of our space ships? That isn't 'just' to make it go. That's to keep it from turning into a ball of molten slag.
To be stealthy a space ship has to do two things. First, it has to minimize the ammount of extra heat it produces. That means turning off the generators and consuming a minimal ammount of power. You store the energy to restart the generator (presumably a fusion plant) in a superconducting coil (your battery). You turn your lifesupport down to the minumum, and you get comfortable in the cold. You get as much of the surface of your ship as possible down to the temperature of the universe, or close to it.
Of course, that's not always possible and you are still consuming enough power at all times to keep your personal (biologicals and computers) alive. So you find a way to dump your heat discretely. One of the best ways to do this is channel your heat into a heatsink on the ship, and then use the heat sink to power a highly efficient laser. You then convery your heat into a very narrow beam of some sort of discrete radiation that wouldn't look all that suspicious on a sensor (maybe you pretend to be a pulsar). Because there is no atmospheric scaterring, you are only detectable on the direct line of your laser 'radiators'. And even if they do get detected, it might just look like a brief flash of background radiation.
As you can imagine, ships could be built to be more or less efficient at all this.
As you power up, you get brighter and brighter, but you do your best to channel all of your EM out behind you, so that whatever you are looking at can't see you.
I keep telling people that bright thing on the back of the ship isn't an engine (or rather, it isn't _only_ an engine), but they always think I'm goofy. Sooner are later someone is going to believe me.
Heh.. great explenation :) I love it :) I never think about what is happening to all that heat from cell :)
So.. since we have almost all theory about snike&hide.. when can we expect first implementations ? :D
So.. since we have almost all theory about snike&hide.. when can we expect first implementations ? :D
4.x.x(.x)
Hm.. almost 2000 years.. quite long.. but im patient :)
Okay, 2 things
1) I can't beleive some of you guys think your ideas through this well before posting...you are true Vendetta addicts and I salute you
2) Of the suggestions I have magaed to read, namely the original post. The ideas sound good to me but I would like to see them be used for both good&evil, not just one...
1) I can't beleive some of you guys think your ideas through this well before posting...you are true Vendetta addicts and I salute you
2) Of the suggestions I have magaed to read, namely the original post. The ideas sound good to me but I would like to see them be used for both good&evil, not just one...
I wonder what all this will look like when implemented
does that mean we can switch our HUD into different "modes" of perception?
or will we only see the changes in the radar, regarding what we can sense/not sense
does that mean we can switch our HUD into different "modes" of perception?
or will we only see the changes in the radar, regarding what we can sense/not sense
bump up for newcomers
*bump*bump*bump* (couldn't resist ;P)
I like the idea of more stealth in game, when I played EnB I was a Jenquai Explorer(as my main char), the most stealthy of the 6 classes, would love to be able to use stealth in this game. Would have applications not only on offense, but in getting away from enemies too.
This sounds very good.
I think that part of this game's charm is that it's a mix of arcade gameplay with semi-realistic physics. I think that too much concentration on how the sensors work and/or don't, is losing sight of the game. Certainly some things could be included, but no so much that it severely changes the game.
My suggestions (do what you want with them):
Jamming systems: Increasing levels increase the power of the jammer. Instead of a red target dot, the jammer projects fuzz on your radar screen so you know an enemy's there, but not now many or how far. Jammers suck energy from the battery, but have an area effect, so closely grouped ships are all hidden. Jammers reduce the effectiveness of auto-targeting systems, so players skilled at non-auto-targeted guns are less affected. The jamming player's radar is not degraded, while his auto-targeting is.
Cloaking systems: Player's ship is rendered invisible and targeting is spotty, while radar dot still remains. Cloaking devices use power very quickly, so possible tactics could include a final approach to a target, or a quick disorientation to change course. A cloaked player cannot target another without firming up his target box on the opposing player's HUD.
Additional sensor systems: These systems degrade the effectiveness of jammers and cloaks. Sensors lower than a jammer or cloak's level do not give any noticeable effect. Sensors equal to a jammer or cloak's level gives a small reduction in effectiveness. Sensors higher than a jammer or cloak's level gives increasingly larger reductions in effectiveness. Jamming fields become smaller as effectiveness is reduced (maybe a 5th gen sensor removes a level 1 jamming field completely), and cloaking devices become less effective (a ship isn't any more visible, but the ability to target the ship is increased). At a low level, the targeting box intermittantly blips on and off. At a high level sensor, the targeting box (and associated auto-targeting) is solid. These sensors, however, take power as well, and also increase an enemy's auto-targeting ability (perhaps increase the accuracy of radar-guided missiles?).
The way I see it, all three of these pieces of equipment take up a weapon slot. More powerful - higher level sensors/jammers/cloaks take up large weapon slots, low level sensors/jammers/cloaks take up small weapon spaces. All of them use up energy, so the use of turbo in conjunction reduces the duration of both. A player could technically load a jammer and a cloaker at the same time, but they drain a lot of power, and they lose two weapon slots. Cloaks would probably be preferred by solo players, and jammers would be effective for groups. Imagine a flight of 10 Serco swooping into an Itani system with two jammers producing a massive field of fuzz that hides the attackers. A trader could use a cloak with a quick turbo to try to disengage from a pirate. I think that given equal levels, the balance is still slightly on the side of the jammer/cloaker, but with varying levels and sizes, the balance can go widely from one side to another. As I mentioned earlier, this could promote team play because obviously the heavy ships can carry higher level jammers, and the lighter ships could hide under their cover to get into range.
What do you guys think about that?
My suggestions (do what you want with them):
Jamming systems: Increasing levels increase the power of the jammer. Instead of a red target dot, the jammer projects fuzz on your radar screen so you know an enemy's there, but not now many or how far. Jammers suck energy from the battery, but have an area effect, so closely grouped ships are all hidden. Jammers reduce the effectiveness of auto-targeting systems, so players skilled at non-auto-targeted guns are less affected. The jamming player's radar is not degraded, while his auto-targeting is.
Cloaking systems: Player's ship is rendered invisible and targeting is spotty, while radar dot still remains. Cloaking devices use power very quickly, so possible tactics could include a final approach to a target, or a quick disorientation to change course. A cloaked player cannot target another without firming up his target box on the opposing player's HUD.
Additional sensor systems: These systems degrade the effectiveness of jammers and cloaks. Sensors lower than a jammer or cloak's level do not give any noticeable effect. Sensors equal to a jammer or cloak's level gives a small reduction in effectiveness. Sensors higher than a jammer or cloak's level gives increasingly larger reductions in effectiveness. Jamming fields become smaller as effectiveness is reduced (maybe a 5th gen sensor removes a level 1 jamming field completely), and cloaking devices become less effective (a ship isn't any more visible, but the ability to target the ship is increased). At a low level, the targeting box intermittantly blips on and off. At a high level sensor, the targeting box (and associated auto-targeting) is solid. These sensors, however, take power as well, and also increase an enemy's auto-targeting ability (perhaps increase the accuracy of radar-guided missiles?).
The way I see it, all three of these pieces of equipment take up a weapon slot. More powerful - higher level sensors/jammers/cloaks take up large weapon slots, low level sensors/jammers/cloaks take up small weapon spaces. All of them use up energy, so the use of turbo in conjunction reduces the duration of both. A player could technically load a jammer and a cloaker at the same time, but they drain a lot of power, and they lose two weapon slots. Cloaks would probably be preferred by solo players, and jammers would be effective for groups. Imagine a flight of 10 Serco swooping into an Itani system with two jammers producing a massive field of fuzz that hides the attackers. A trader could use a cloak with a quick turbo to try to disengage from a pirate. I think that given equal levels, the balance is still slightly on the side of the jammer/cloaker, but with varying levels and sizes, the balance can go widely from one side to another. As I mentioned earlier, this could promote team play because obviously the heavy ships can carry higher level jammers, and the lighter ships could hide under their cover to get into range.
What do you guys think about that?
is it coming in 1.2.1???
i've heard rumours!!!
i've heard rumours!!!
Another stealthy idea.. (btw, I'm a n00b)
Could you have unmanned drones or probes (carried in cargo space) that a ship could launch, that are under remote control? You could switch views to the drone view and back, as a way of keeping an eye on a particular place, getting info about what ships are passing through, etc. It would be like having a smart security camera. Even cooler if you could have a drone latch onto someone's ship so you know where they are (they'd be found during a repair, though).
Could you have unmanned drones or probes (carried in cargo space) that a ship could launch, that are under remote control? You could switch views to the drone view and back, as a way of keeping an eye on a particular place, getting info about what ships are passing through, etc. It would be like having a smart security camera. Even cooler if you could have a drone latch onto someone's ship so you know where they are (they'd be found during a repair, though).
great ideas.
BUMP bump BuMp bUmP
BUMP bump BuMp bUmP
A thread necromancer! Don't forget that to cast [raise thread], you need 50 [BBmana] each time you do, which could quickly expend your [BBmana] reserves.
-- tosh, the wannabe thread cleric
-- tosh, the wannabe thread cleric
I apprecaite Celebrim's original post da' most. Although not a theif (rogue) kinda' guy myself, I do like to play with mining every so often. This often doesn't bode well, because I'm not the most attentive miner, and quickly grow tired of pressing "U" to check for nearby hostile ships every minute. I can't get /verbose to work for some reason, and to top it all off, I like to mine in Sedina D-14, a most trecheraus and popular station of Corvus.
Well, one fateful eve' while I was mining some good ore, and eating a bowl of delicious cheerios, a Tumble Monster of unknown origins descended from behind me, and blew my little Atlas to bits with one well aimed volley of rockets. I was both infuriated, and overjoyed!
I was infuriated because of the frustrating to use detection system VO has to offer. Atleast in my opinion.
But I was ecstatic, because I *SO* deserved to be snuck up and backstabbed, and someone took advantage of that.
So I think stealth/detection has two great things to offer VO. The first being that delicious theif in the darkness feel for pirates, and the adrenaline it confers to traders in their midst. The second for long range detection, in bounty hunting, capture the cargo, or what have you. Tracer bugs would be neat.
Excellent thinking, everyone. I appreciate the ideas because they relate directly to my experience on VO.
Well, one fateful eve' while I was mining some good ore, and eating a bowl of delicious cheerios, a Tumble Monster of unknown origins descended from behind me, and blew my little Atlas to bits with one well aimed volley of rockets. I was both infuriated, and overjoyed!
I was infuriated because of the frustrating to use detection system VO has to offer. Atleast in my opinion.
But I was ecstatic, because I *SO* deserved to be snuck up and backstabbed, and someone took advantage of that.
So I think stealth/detection has two great things to offer VO. The first being that delicious theif in the darkness feel for pirates, and the adrenaline it confers to traders in their midst. The second for long range detection, in bounty hunting, capture the cargo, or what have you. Tracer bugs would be neat.
Excellent thinking, everyone. I appreciate the ideas because they relate directly to my experience on VO.
There is a 'scanner' bind that periodically searches for nearby enemies. Maybe you should go take a look at it?
Will it run on my Mac, do you know? Seems right up my alley anyways, thanks. =)