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joyless, your concern about the invulnerability of cargo during transit belongs in another suggestion thread.
Lol kenny. I wasn't complaining about that in itself. I was challenging YOUR argument. It's your argument in favor of OP so if you don't want to expand on it, that basically delegitimizes it. Thanks, I guess?
Again, those are red herrings distracting from the real issue at hand.
I'm all for bulk trading made easier, there just needs to be a way to keep it vulnerable to not ruin pirate gameplay.
Again, those are red herrings distracting from the real issue at hand.
I'm all for bulk trading made easier, there just needs to be a way to keep it vulnerable to not ruin pirate gameplay.
I mostly agree with Dr. Lecter's arguments, but you guys are blowing the safety thing way out of proportion. Yes, trading in the station is safer than trading outside. When it comes to the actual transaction itself, it's even completely safe. But trading outside is not absolutely risky. In fact, it's only slightly risky. Yes, there are people who get robbed mid-transaction. There are even people who take the money and run. But generally speaking, a person is only at risk of losing a mothload or two unless they are monumentally stupid.
For example, I've bought a lot of Consumer Robotics and Gauss Cannon MkIII from other players, and I usually try to get them to deliver at least a few loads of the stuff. Since I'm a pirate and they're a trader, we're both worried that the other one might try to pull something. Instead of paying everything up front or at the end, we break it down into pieces. They drop a mothload, I pay for that load and deposit it into the station, and we repeat until finished. Only one mothload of cargo/credits is ever at risk.
Similarly, if you're trading a few thousand cu of material and a pirate attacks, they might steal a few hundred cu if they're lucky, but that's about it. There's only so much cargo floating free at any given moment, and once the pirate starts interfering, you close up shop and finish the transaction later on, probably being more careful this next time as well.
It's also important to remember that most bulk trading does not involve items with high value density. Mostly it either involves high value items with large volumes, or low/medium value items with small volumes. Either way, that's mediocre value-density. Charging 100k/cu would be completely inappropriate for nearly everything that is traded in bulk and would, to use Dr. Lecter's words, kill the underlying transaction.
Ideally, the station would appraise the goods and choose an appropriate fee based on their value, but that's not going to happen. But it doesn't need to. That's where requiring in-station trades to involve 1000cu+ comes in. Since high value density items are mainly traded in small quantities, limiting in-station trades to bulk trading rules them out. That said, the rule would probably need to be amended to require 1000cu+ of every item involved in the trade; no bundling 10cu of Samo with 1000cu of Carbonic, for example.
I do agree that 500/cu may be a bit low; I'd support anything up to 10k/cu. Any more than that as a general price for bulk transactions would be silly. (Non-bulk in-station transfers would, on the other hand, require much larger fees; 100k/cu might be reasonable then.)
@Joyless: Yes, people who are too dumb to live exist and get rightly exploited. But, being that stupid, they're sure to make plenty of other mistakes we can exploit. We should not punish everybody else for those people's stupidity.
For example, I've bought a lot of Consumer Robotics and Gauss Cannon MkIII from other players, and I usually try to get them to deliver at least a few loads of the stuff. Since I'm a pirate and they're a trader, we're both worried that the other one might try to pull something. Instead of paying everything up front or at the end, we break it down into pieces. They drop a mothload, I pay for that load and deposit it into the station, and we repeat until finished. Only one mothload of cargo/credits is ever at risk.
Similarly, if you're trading a few thousand cu of material and a pirate attacks, they might steal a few hundred cu if they're lucky, but that's about it. There's only so much cargo floating free at any given moment, and once the pirate starts interfering, you close up shop and finish the transaction later on, probably being more careful this next time as well.
It's also important to remember that most bulk trading does not involve items with high value density. Mostly it either involves high value items with large volumes, or low/medium value items with small volumes. Either way, that's mediocre value-density. Charging 100k/cu would be completely inappropriate for nearly everything that is traded in bulk and would, to use Dr. Lecter's words, kill the underlying transaction.
Ideally, the station would appraise the goods and choose an appropriate fee based on their value, but that's not going to happen. But it doesn't need to. That's where requiring in-station trades to involve 1000cu+ comes in. Since high value density items are mainly traded in small quantities, limiting in-station trades to bulk trading rules them out. That said, the rule would probably need to be amended to require 1000cu+ of every item involved in the trade; no bundling 10cu of Samo with 1000cu of Carbonic, for example.
I do agree that 500/cu may be a bit low; I'd support anything up to 10k/cu. Any more than that as a general price for bulk transactions would be silly. (Non-bulk in-station transfers would, on the other hand, require much larger fees; 100k/cu might be reasonable then.)
@Joyless: Yes, people who are too dumb to live exist and get rightly exploited. But, being that stupid, they're sure to make plenty of other mistakes we can exploit. We should not punish everybody else for those people's stupidity.
+10
Similarly, if you're trading a few thousand cu of material and a pirate attacks, they might steal a few hundred cu if they're lucky, but that's about it. There's only so much cargo floating free at any given moment, and once the pirate starts interfering, you close up shop and finish the transaction later on, probably being more careful this next time as well.
I think you're grossly minifying the gains that pirates have made by stealing a single XC load. It only takes a single stolen XC load of a completed dent part to completely, utterly ruin a trader's day. Depending on part, as much as 100m could be lost to a pirate in blink of eye.
I think you're grossly minifying the gains that pirates have made by stealing a single XC load. It only takes a single stolen XC load of a completed dent part to completely, utterly ruin a trader's day. Depending on part, as much as 100m could be lost to a pirate in blink of eye.
Hmm, a right wing lawyer arguing for greater state taxation? You should put that on your CV Dr L .....
I notice you didn't attempt to refute the bases for imposing such a tax:
RP-wise, people who provide secure markets tend to charge for access to them. The more of a secure oasis in a Mad Max desert the market is, the more they're apt to charge. Even the UIT are a rapacious and greedy lot of swine...and the Greyspace corps make them look positively charitable.
Gameplay-wise, the OP is suggesting something that (outside training sectors) has never been possible in VO before: substantively interacting with another player in complete safety and utter assurance as to the trade being on pre-agreed terms. I understand why that's appealing nonetheless because practicalities, but that's hardly the end of the discussion. Indeed, the more impractically large the trade the longer it takes to execute right now, and thus the greater the chance for player interaction (e.g., pirate stumbles into your little XC conga line)...so the exact thing this is designed to most fix, is the thing most likely to trigger our objections that your lot dismisses as rarely occurring.
If implemented at all (and the number of tridents in-game right now suggests it's just not that big a deal), what the OP is suggesting should be severely limited. It should have costs associated with it (at least 10k per cu) that make engaging in trade outside the station, where safety is not assured, appealing. And it should be limited to only bulk trades of a single item type - nobody should be swapping a master computer, few cus of samo, or a reactor in complete safety...ever.
RP-wise, people who provide secure markets tend to charge for access to them. The more of a secure oasis in a Mad Max desert the market is, the more they're apt to charge. Even the UIT are a rapacious and greedy lot of swine...and the Greyspace corps make them look positively charitable.
Gameplay-wise, the OP is suggesting something that (outside training sectors) has never been possible in VO before: substantively interacting with another player in complete safety and utter assurance as to the trade being on pre-agreed terms. I understand why that's appealing nonetheless because practicalities, but that's hardly the end of the discussion. Indeed, the more impractically large the trade the longer it takes to execute right now, and thus the greater the chance for player interaction (e.g., pirate stumbles into your little XC conga line)...so the exact thing this is designed to most fix, is the thing most likely to trigger our objections that your lot dismisses as rarely occurring.
If implemented at all (and the number of tridents in-game right now suggests it's just not that big a deal), what the OP is suggesting should be severely limited. It should have costs associated with it (at least 10k per cu) that make engaging in trade outside the station, where safety is not assured, appealing. And it should be limited to only bulk trades of a single item type - nobody should be swapping a master computer, few cus of samo, or a reactor in complete safety...ever.
"I think you're grossly minifying the gains that pirates have made by stealing a single XC load. It only takes a single stolen XC load of a completed dent part to completely, utterly ruin a trader's day. Depending on part, as much as 100m could be lost to a pirate in blink of eye."
I'm not. That tier of parts is not traded in bulk in the first place, and therefor would not be protected if the bulk trade system required a minimum of 1000cu of each item being traded. For example, they would have to be trading at least six reactors at once to qualify for trading the reactors in-station. And if that's too low, further protection against abuse can be added by also requiring a minimum quantity of 50 items in addition to the minimum volume of 1000cu. That would make it even more difficult to use for trading high tier capship parts, while not negatively impacting its ability to be used when trading large amounts of ore, SSS, and such.
I'm not. That tier of parts is not traded in bulk in the first place, and therefor would not be protected if the bulk trade system required a minimum of 1000cu of each item being traded. For example, they would have to be trading at least six reactors at once to qualify for trading the reactors in-station. And if that's too low, further protection against abuse can be added by also requiring a minimum quantity of 50 items in addition to the minimum volume of 1000cu. That would make it even more difficult to use for trading high tier capship parts, while not negatively impacting its ability to be used when trading large amounts of ore, SSS, and such.
I like the idea that it can only be done if trading in bulk. I'd be willing to say as high as 2000cu should be the limit. Making 10 XC exchanges is not fun, but big deals feel awesome for both parties.
This would make one of the drags a little more fun.
This should not implemented as a way of safe transactions. That's not fun. If you are selling a handful of parts, it is more fun to do it the old fashioned way.
No fun to transfer 4000 SSS to a person, amiright Faille?
This would make one of the drags a little more fun.
This should not implemented as a way of safe transactions. That's not fun. If you are selling a handful of parts, it is more fun to do it the old fashioned way.
No fun to transfer 4000 SSS to a person, amiright Faille?
+1 to amended; I wouldn't mind paying for transfers. How much I would be willing to pay? I think 30% of the good's worth would work, or more. smart traders would then move to different sectors to lower the cost of the trade (more time for a pirate to open up their ship). conq stations should do it for free, provided both parties have the appropriate key. I also think each station should limit transactions to ???kg every ??? hours. limits like these should help pirates continue to interrupt some transactions, while providing some safety for the traders of VO. preventing ANY kind of in-station transactions doesn't appeal to the traders, but giving unlimited transactions would hurt pirates. we need to find a good balance.
limits like these should help pirates continue to interrupt some transactions, while providing some safety for the traders of VO.
There is no valid basis for implementing this to provide anyone with added safety. The sole legitimate reason to do this is for convenience, and in that case it is the addition of perfect safety that most strongly weighs against implementation even granting that convenience would be good.
There is no valid basis for implementing this to provide anyone with added safety. The sole legitimate reason to do this is for convenience, and in that case it is the addition of perfect safety that most strongly weighs against implementation even granting that convenience would be good.
Even as a pirate, I am not in favor of holding back on game-play improvements just for a minor benefit to my play-style.
Every modern MMO has a method of buying/selling that in independent of the need for both parties to be there. VO needs to implement something similar. This does not negate the risk of travel or transportation. But to say that the only method of player trade is to drop items in space is a bit ridiculous.
+1
Every modern MMO has a method of buying/selling that in independent of the need for both parties to be there. VO needs to implement something similar. This does not negate the risk of travel or transportation. But to say that the only method of player trade is to drop items in space is a bit ridiculous.
+1
+1
BUT, no GUI popup, or make the GUI popup optinal...
BUT, no GUI popup, or make the GUI popup optinal...
I do not like the idea of even large quantities of insta-safe-trades simply because it takes an element of the game away. Sure it is boring, but so is mining. Doesn't mean they should remove mining and just give you the ores though does it? Yes, the element is not just about piracy, or trying to force the way I play on other players either. If someone doesn't want to grind 4000cu of SSS because they either cannot, or simply find that boring then that grind should not be eliminated just because someone else wants to grind. You having to circle the station is the easy way out for both the buyer and the seller; this is not a battlenet game.
And drop the argument with "every other MMO" too, this is not every other MMO and it never will be! It will always be a small game with a tight-nit community simply because of the subject matter at hand (not to mention the small dev team in the catch 22 situation - ie, we need more money to get more devs, but we need more players to get more money). If you think we will ever have more than 2000 people online at any one time you are simply dreaming. Stop smoking that DMT and wake the hell up!
And drop the argument with "every other MMO" too, this is not every other MMO and it never will be! It will always be a small game with a tight-nit community simply because of the subject matter at hand (not to mention the small dev team in the catch 22 situation - ie, we need more money to get more devs, but we need more players to get more money). If you think we will ever have more than 2000 people online at any one time you are simply dreaming. Stop smoking that DMT and wake the hell up!
Yoda, we should also drop the inventory functionality too then, because all the other mmos have done it, and we're small time, so a player should only be allowed to have one item, and they have to carry, sell it, or get it stolen.
Doesn't mean they should remove mining and just give you the ores though does it?
Actually they did just that. You can buy most the ores you need at Latos N2 right now. Mining is pretty pointless these days.
Actually they did just that. You can buy most the ores you need at Latos N2 right now. Mining is pretty pointless these days.
+1 to the OP
Having a cu limit like 1000cu is a great way to make sure the pirates can still grab small amounts of things, and a fee makes sense too, RP wise. Having worked in places that handle a lot of stuff, I have to say that they don't really care what they're handling, as long as they get paid by the agreed metric, eg. weight, volume, whatever. Charging an amount per X unit is reasonable to expect, for instance 1c per kg or 10c per cu with a minimum limit on the volume of the traded items.
Having a cu limit like 1000cu is a great way to make sure the pirates can still grab small amounts of things, and a fee makes sense too, RP wise. Having worked in places that handle a lot of stuff, I have to say that they don't really care what they're handling, as long as they get paid by the agreed metric, eg. weight, volume, whatever. Charging an amount per X unit is reasonable to expect, for instance 1c per kg or 10c per cu with a minimum limit on the volume of the traded items.
I'm going to have to agree with the op. I used to take the other stance, but I see how ridiculous that is. Spending soo much time drop trading hinders the experience. NO ONE has fun doing it. And when you do a bunch of large transactions the game starts losing its appeal. It burns you out and that can turn into lapses of subscribing. I know it did for me. And this doesn't make trading safe, someone has to haul the stuff and then from there it usually is hauled again.
Nobody said it made it "safe." It indisputably makes it safer by removing the need to spend a large amount of time at a single location in a fucking XC, in addition to all the hauling to/from said location.
Now, maybe with the advent of tridents there's a need to make extremely large transactions more convenient (even though the number of tridents floating around strongly suggests we're still not there yet). But if we're going to implement the OP it should:
1) only work for those rare bulk trades where things are just insanely inconvenient...trades that involve a dozen undock/drop/redock cycles aren't even remotely close to inconvenient enough to justify giving anyone involved perfect safety that VO has never before had in P2P interactions of this kind; and
2) have significant costs imposed to balance the fact that even if it's implemented for convenience reasons, it necessarily has the incredibly perverse effect of making the biggest, riskiest transactions of all into the safest and easiest transactions to do.
Now, maybe with the advent of tridents there's a need to make extremely large transactions more convenient (even though the number of tridents floating around strongly suggests we're still not there yet). But if we're going to implement the OP it should:
1) only work for those rare bulk trades where things are just insanely inconvenient...trades that involve a dozen undock/drop/redock cycles aren't even remotely close to inconvenient enough to justify giving anyone involved perfect safety that VO has never before had in P2P interactions of this kind; and
2) have significant costs imposed to balance the fact that even if it's implemented for convenience reasons, it necessarily has the incredibly perverse effect of making the biggest, riskiest transactions of all into the safest and easiest transactions to do.
It doesn't make it that much safer. Most people are smart enough to drop the amount of cu that is about to be picked up anyway. And whether it's am xc or greyhound size cargo doesn't matter.
You cannot honestly say that it makes sense from a monetizing dev or a paying player stance that having stations based p2p trades is a bad idea . And neither do the devs they are already prototyping with n2. It's not perfect but it's a start. Can't wait til 2.0
You cannot honestly say that it makes sense from a monetizing dev or a paying player stance that having stations based p2p trades is a bad idea . And neither do the devs they are already prototyping with n2. It's not perfect but it's a start. Can't wait til 2.0