Forums » Suggestions
Every now and then, somebody gets bend out of shape over the faction exploit. Unfortunately, they nearly always miss the real problem and get hung up on trying to figure out foolproof ways to identify the "real" aggressor and such. The real problem is not the fact that you can get in trouble for self defense if you don't pay attention. (Indeed, the faction system should be exploitable in that way.)
Closer to the mark is the observation that villains are admired in the first place. Unfortunately, this still is not quite the root problem. Therefor, harsher penalties and more difficult reparation are not the full solution. They are part of the solution, but they won't address the real issue.
The real problem is that villains have no motivation to let their standings reflect their villainy.
The solution to that is to add content that requires poor standings with the three nations. This criminal element would include black markets, player-set bounties, contraband, piratical missions, etc.
All grey stations (besides the TPG one) should have some assortment of these shady activities going on that are only accessible to people with poor national standings in conjunction with good local standings. The factions themselves wouldn't be mutually exclusive (except Corvus, which should me mutually exclusive to the UIT in particular, and to a lesser extent to the Itani and Serco). They just wouldn't expose their criminal elements to people who are in good standing with nations.
So for example, a trader could still be in good standing with both the UIT and Xang Xi, and have access to both faction's lawful goodies. But he wouldn't have access to the shadier stuff Xang Xi offers unless he gives up the good UIT standing.
It wouldn't have to require being hated by the three nations, but it should require being at most neutral if not disliked.
This, in conjunction with more balanced faction building process, tracking of crimes, and escalating penalties, would result in fewer situations where longtime criminals have and abuse good standings. They'll have motivation to let their national standings drop, and the improved faction handling would discourage flip-flopping. Yes, some people would still do it, but that is a good thing. We are, after all, villains.
Closer to the mark is the observation that villains are admired in the first place. Unfortunately, this still is not quite the root problem. Therefor, harsher penalties and more difficult reparation are not the full solution. They are part of the solution, but they won't address the real issue.
The real problem is that villains have no motivation to let their standings reflect their villainy.
The solution to that is to add content that requires poor standings with the three nations. This criminal element would include black markets, player-set bounties, contraband, piratical missions, etc.
All grey stations (besides the TPG one) should have some assortment of these shady activities going on that are only accessible to people with poor national standings in conjunction with good local standings. The factions themselves wouldn't be mutually exclusive (except Corvus, which should me mutually exclusive to the UIT in particular, and to a lesser extent to the Itani and Serco). They just wouldn't expose their criminal elements to people who are in good standing with nations.
So for example, a trader could still be in good standing with both the UIT and Xang Xi, and have access to both faction's lawful goodies. But he wouldn't have access to the shadier stuff Xang Xi offers unless he gives up the good UIT standing.
It wouldn't have to require being hated by the three nations, but it should require being at most neutral if not disliked.
This, in conjunction with more balanced faction building process, tracking of crimes, and escalating penalties, would result in fewer situations where longtime criminals have and abuse good standings. They'll have motivation to let their national standings drop, and the improved faction handling would discourage flip-flopping. Yes, some people would still do it, but that is a good thing. We are, after all, villains.
The real problem is that villains have no motivation to let their standings reflect their villainy.
+1
+1
+50
Likewise, incentivize poor Serco and Itani standings for opposite militaries.
Likewise, incentivize poor Serco and Itani standings for opposite militaries.
+1 I agree with everything except the idea that villains need a motivation to drop their faction standings. The fact that they have scored a kill in monitored space is ample motivation.
+1 and file it in the bin.
Not quite, Death Fluffy - that is motivation to drop the standings temporarily and get them back since they are really easy to do, but there needs to be an upside or a motivation to own the standings proudly so that people are proud to be KOS with some faction X or Y like we are proud to be KOS Itani as serco nationalists
It's nice to see a sensible post on this topic.
1+ to Rin and 1+ to ARF
It's nice to see a sensible post on this topic.
1+ to Rin and 1+ to ARF
yarr i am already tri-POS with villainy!
+1 a ton! I have one alt that I play seriously... he is hated or KoS by every faction short of Serco and Corvus. The only motivation I have for him, is rp (he is a logistics support officer turned revenge driven psychopath bent on the extermination of all life). The game literally provides nomotivation forme tolog in with him.
+1 to make villainy official...
Best way to do so? The same old outlaw faction, the banned ones, or the villains.... a step deeper to the dark side that started with Corvus and native KoS.
I don't like the 3KoS PreReq, as it excludes the Privateer role. Instead, we can have "tiers" or levels with: Native KoS ; 2KoS (native+1) ; 3KoS. It excludes "other nations KoS" as it is a nationalist, so must be native KoS to wear black hats.
Maybe integrate TRS idea on abolish levels for this new outlaw "faction", homed on a capship, ARK-class... you embrace the dark side and get homed there. There you can have missions as "intercept this voy, bonus for PKs" or "We need itemX from factionF, go intercept some". Availability tied to x.KoS above.
Corvus<-----TPG----->UIT = Cv/Uit should be mutually exclusive, and TPG must be the neutral one. So no shady missions from TPG. But UIT should issue Privateer missions against this new faction's ships, and villain faction should prefer UIT as target, trying to not piss off the major nations.
Best way to do so? The same old outlaw faction, the banned ones, or the villains.... a step deeper to the dark side that started with Corvus and native KoS.
I don't like the 3KoS PreReq, as it excludes the Privateer role. Instead, we can have "tiers" or levels with: Native KoS ; 2KoS (native+1) ; 3KoS. It excludes "other nations KoS" as it is a nationalist, so must be native KoS to wear black hats.
Maybe integrate TRS idea on abolish levels for this new outlaw "faction", homed on a capship, ARK-class... you embrace the dark side and get homed there. There you can have missions as "intercept this voy, bonus for PKs" or "We need itemX from factionF, go intercept some". Availability tied to x.KoS above.
Corvus<-----TPG----->UIT = Cv/Uit should be mutually exclusive, and TPG must be the neutral one. So no shady missions from TPG. But UIT should issue Privateer missions against this new faction's ships, and villain faction should prefer UIT as target, trying to not piss off the major nations.
No Alloh, there is no need for a new faction. That would be completely stupid anyway.
You could allow for privateer-types by having the non-Corvus stations only expose their shadier aspects to people who are in poor standing with the two nearest nations, without any particular concern for the third. So in Aeolus, you'd have to be unfriendly with the Serco and the UIT. In Tunguska, you'd have to be unfriendly with the Itani and the UIT.
Corvus, however, should have actual mutual exclusivity with the three nations, even if the shady stuff only required outright poor standings with any two. Why? If you're in good standing with people like Corvus, nobody is going to admire you.
Yes, that means that privateers who want to fly Corvus ships would need to give up any high national standing they have in order to do so. They'd still be able to dock and such, but they have to choose between Corvus ships or National ships. Can't have both, sorry.
You could allow for privateer-types by having the non-Corvus stations only expose their shadier aspects to people who are in poor standing with the two nearest nations, without any particular concern for the third. So in Aeolus, you'd have to be unfriendly with the Serco and the UIT. In Tunguska, you'd have to be unfriendly with the Itani and the UIT.
Corvus, however, should have actual mutual exclusivity with the three nations, even if the shady stuff only required outright poor standings with any two. Why? If you're in good standing with people like Corvus, nobody is going to admire you.
Yes, that means that privateers who want to fly Corvus ships would need to give up any high national standing they have in order to do so. They'd still be able to dock and such, but they have to choose between Corvus ships or National ships. Can't have both, sorry.
Not gunna happened Rin, traders want to fly 'em greyhound : )
PS: let us all remember that the game is biased
in favor of itani
in favor of pirates
in favor of traders
in favor of serco
in favor of newbs
in favor of n00bs
in favor of trolls
in favor of miners
in favor of to be continued...
All statements above bein' correct dependin' on da observer.
PS: let us all remember that the game is biased
in favor of itani
in favor of pirates
in favor of traders
in favor of serco
in favor of newbs
in favor of n00bs
in favor of trolls
in favor of miners
in favor of to be continued...
All statements above bein' correct dependin' on da observer.
+1
+1
The solution to that is to add content that requires poor standings with the three nations.
start writing PCC missions, my friend. You can specify standing minimums and maximums.
start writing PCC missions, my friend. You can specify standing minimums and maximums.
It's on my todo list. I can only tolerate the mission editor in small doses.
start writing PCC missions, my friend.
There's already some in there. The thing is, nobody gets their standing up (or down) to do missions.
Why do people work on TPG standing? Because they want the Behemoth XC. (or noobs: the Raptor)
Why do people work on Corvus standing? Because they want Corvults and Greyhounds.
Why do people work on Itani standing? Because they want Valkyries.
Why do people work on Serco standing? Because they want Proms.
...etc.
Missions you don't know about and can't see aren't an incentive to change your standing.
There's already some in there. The thing is, nobody gets their standing up (or down) to do missions.
Why do people work on TPG standing? Because they want the Behemoth XC. (or noobs: the Raptor)
Why do people work on Corvus standing? Because they want Corvults and Greyhounds.
Why do people work on Itani standing? Because they want Valkyries.
Why do people work on Serco standing? Because they want Proms.
...etc.
Missions you don't know about and can't see aren't an incentive to change your standing.
Why would someone tank their native +1 nation standing? (n2KoS)
To be able to find and dock to the Pirate capship, hereby nicknamed Black Ark, to purchase pirate items and take some of its shady missions.
Native KoS required, or it's a nationalist pilot, thus local KoS!
Why n2KoS instead of simply 3KoS?
To have separated content for different gameplays, including privateering for 2KoS, for a sort of "Treason&Immigration". Someone was born as X, but adopts nation Y and start hunting Z+X for Y.
Example: Itani pays Itani to kill Serco in Itani space, but hire Serco and UIT privateers with good Itani standing to hunt Serco pilots and supporting convoys. Same from Itani.
3KoS is another gameplay, they are tipped when/where the convoys will be and other similar missions.
How people will know about it?
A simple PCC mission from Corvus can do the trick, as you pay a few beers to a NPC hear about the Black Ark... (And thru the grapevine)
What about the other players who don't want to betray their homeland, can't they dock and use pirate stuff?
Go back home and use your nation's resources. Or create an ALT and try...
Anyone approaching the Ark with good native standing becomes a prize, can't dock and regular guards will chase him near stations.
With native KoS he can dock, purchase and sell, but very limited missions explaining the "operation".
There would be some sort of "Single-Use Docking Permit", sold from Corvus, to allow a player to dock the Black Ark and see its missions... before getting caught and face a deathly challenge...
To be able to find and dock to the Pirate capship, hereby nicknamed Black Ark, to purchase pirate items and take some of its shady missions.
Native KoS required, or it's a nationalist pilot, thus local KoS!
Why n2KoS instead of simply 3KoS?
To have separated content for different gameplays, including privateering for 2KoS, for a sort of "Treason&Immigration". Someone was born as X, but adopts nation Y and start hunting Z+X for Y.
Example: Itani pays Itani to kill Serco in Itani space, but hire Serco and UIT privateers with good Itani standing to hunt Serco pilots and supporting convoys. Same from Itani.
3KoS is another gameplay, they are tipped when/where the convoys will be and other similar missions.
How people will know about it?
A simple PCC mission from Corvus can do the trick, as you pay a few beers to a NPC hear about the Black Ark... (And thru the grapevine)
What about the other players who don't want to betray their homeland, can't they dock and use pirate stuff?
Go back home and use your nation's resources. Or create an ALT and try...
Anyone approaching the Ark with good native standing becomes a prize, can't dock and regular guards will chase him near stations.
With native KoS he can dock, purchase and sell, but very limited missions explaining the "operation".
There would be some sort of "Single-Use Docking Permit", sold from Corvus, to allow a player to dock the Black Ark and see its missions... before getting caught and face a deathly challenge...
I don't believe this, yet I actually agree somewhat with the ideas presented here. It does seem as the faction mechanism is broken, and only serves to frustrate people that would like to see it work.
I have seen people team up, use a Trident, and go from Hated to Admire with a faction in an hour's time. I have seen one pirate advise another to stockpile the station's favorite item, i.e. 3k plasteel, and then grief their favorite target, as the target's standing won't matter. Or take the 20mil minor faction mission and repair your standing. So, even if you are Admired or Pillar of Society in your current sector it doesn't matter, as the person attacking you can repair their standing within minutes. Lets just say faction standing is a good idea, yet broken how it is.
Lets take a look at real life. Some governments run black ops, such as the CIA and the Bay of Pigs. Or the military, where the Army or whoever says here is the equipment, and target, yet if you get caught we will disown you. Or even when the US was at war with the UK, and the UK issued letters of Marques to the private sector who would fly the Union Jack. The USA saw it as an act by pirates, as people where being kidnapped off of ships, and forced in work gangs on the other ships flying the Union Jack. All a matter of a point of view. And lets not forget that there is other lawful military that the rest of the world feels is just a terrorist front (Iraq and Iran come to mind).
So, how can real life be reflected in the game, and still have it remain fun? Just something that comes to mind, and that is RED and the IRA of Ireland. Both are pretending to be nationalist, yet their methods and actions screams otherwise. If you where truly a nationalist your government would not be ashamed of you, or have you on their own KoS list on a regular basis, instead they would be providing the missions, funds, and equipment to carry out a proper and lawful operation.
So, Serco and Itani can have CtC, boarder wars, and other recognized nationalistic actions/wars, and also have black ops. Then with Corvus, it should be an outlaw nation, and accepted as such. Large corporations do develop weapons and stuff that might find their way onto the black market, at a price. Yet to have access to that you have be a bit shady. And it would not be out of the question that their would be a fence to sell ill-begotten goods to in gray space, as you could not sell the pirated items in a regular faction station.
So, for me ITAN is more of a nationalist guild than some others, and could do all of the regular military missions, such as CtC without problems. Then a guild like BR1, that has been known to attack guilds that are neutral, yet don't make a habit of it, would qualify for the black ops, just not the officially sanctioned missions like the boarder wars. Then you have a guild such as RED that claims one thing and proves to be something else, attacking neutral guilds all of the time, would just be outlaws, and would only be able to take missions in Corvus, and be hated by their own nation for bringing such shame to them.
Make it easy to become an outlaw, yet hard to become that local hero. If you are new to the game then you should not have the same problems of building faction standing as someone that had it and then went bad. If you do find your standings tanking then it should take weeks, maybe even months, to build it back up, not mere minutes or hours. That is fine if you are going to be dealing in the black market, and with the Corvus stations as your main home station. It would also give true nationalist a reason to stop and consider their actions before engaging in terrorist activities.
This could effect guilds in unexpected ways as well. If a guild member engages in questionable actions in monitored space then the guild as a whole could become outlaw, which could effect it's docking privileges, and trading prices. This most likely would not have any effect on EMS or ORE, yet it could effect guilds such as TGFT and FAMY. FAMY may have the hardest, yet most fun, of it, as they would most likely be considered hated by most nations. FAMY could only operate in gray space, and even then, gray space may not care for them, due to the mafia-style of the guild, and Corvus would not want to be the focus of a police action by the three other nations. This could also effect TGFT as they believe in free trade, even with the enemy. This means a couple members could make unlawful trades, and effect the guild's faction standing as well, and hurt the whole guild, unless the transactions take place in a totally unmonitored sector. It may even give raise to another guild, such as the gray traders, that practice toeing the line a lot, and are able to help launder the goods obtained in questionable manners, for a fee of course.
As the game stands right now I don't think Letters of Marque (state sponsored privacy) is a good idea. Yet when it is introduced I think a major reworking of faction standing would be proper. And there is some real potential for the ideas listed in this thread.
I have seen people team up, use a Trident, and go from Hated to Admire with a faction in an hour's time. I have seen one pirate advise another to stockpile the station's favorite item, i.e. 3k plasteel, and then grief their favorite target, as the target's standing won't matter. Or take the 20mil minor faction mission and repair your standing. So, even if you are Admired or Pillar of Society in your current sector it doesn't matter, as the person attacking you can repair their standing within minutes. Lets just say faction standing is a good idea, yet broken how it is.
Lets take a look at real life. Some governments run black ops, such as the CIA and the Bay of Pigs. Or the military, where the Army or whoever says here is the equipment, and target, yet if you get caught we will disown you. Or even when the US was at war with the UK, and the UK issued letters of Marques to the private sector who would fly the Union Jack. The USA saw it as an act by pirates, as people where being kidnapped off of ships, and forced in work gangs on the other ships flying the Union Jack. All a matter of a point of view. And lets not forget that there is other lawful military that the rest of the world feels is just a terrorist front (Iraq and Iran come to mind).
So, how can real life be reflected in the game, and still have it remain fun? Just something that comes to mind, and that is RED and the IRA of Ireland. Both are pretending to be nationalist, yet their methods and actions screams otherwise. If you where truly a nationalist your government would not be ashamed of you, or have you on their own KoS list on a regular basis, instead they would be providing the missions, funds, and equipment to carry out a proper and lawful operation.
So, Serco and Itani can have CtC, boarder wars, and other recognized nationalistic actions/wars, and also have black ops. Then with Corvus, it should be an outlaw nation, and accepted as such. Large corporations do develop weapons and stuff that might find their way onto the black market, at a price. Yet to have access to that you have be a bit shady. And it would not be out of the question that their would be a fence to sell ill-begotten goods to in gray space, as you could not sell the pirated items in a regular faction station.
So, for me ITAN is more of a nationalist guild than some others, and could do all of the regular military missions, such as CtC without problems. Then a guild like BR1, that has been known to attack guilds that are neutral, yet don't make a habit of it, would qualify for the black ops, just not the officially sanctioned missions like the boarder wars. Then you have a guild such as RED that claims one thing and proves to be something else, attacking neutral guilds all of the time, would just be outlaws, and would only be able to take missions in Corvus, and be hated by their own nation for bringing such shame to them.
Make it easy to become an outlaw, yet hard to become that local hero. If you are new to the game then you should not have the same problems of building faction standing as someone that had it and then went bad. If you do find your standings tanking then it should take weeks, maybe even months, to build it back up, not mere minutes or hours. That is fine if you are going to be dealing in the black market, and with the Corvus stations as your main home station. It would also give true nationalist a reason to stop and consider their actions before engaging in terrorist activities.
This could effect guilds in unexpected ways as well. If a guild member engages in questionable actions in monitored space then the guild as a whole could become outlaw, which could effect it's docking privileges, and trading prices. This most likely would not have any effect on EMS or ORE, yet it could effect guilds such as TGFT and FAMY. FAMY may have the hardest, yet most fun, of it, as they would most likely be considered hated by most nations. FAMY could only operate in gray space, and even then, gray space may not care for them, due to the mafia-style of the guild, and Corvus would not want to be the focus of a police action by the three other nations. This could also effect TGFT as they believe in free trade, even with the enemy. This means a couple members could make unlawful trades, and effect the guild's faction standing as well, and hurt the whole guild, unless the transactions take place in a totally unmonitored sector. It may even give raise to another guild, such as the gray traders, that practice toeing the line a lot, and are able to help launder the goods obtained in questionable manners, for a fee of course.
As the game stands right now I don't think Letters of Marque (state sponsored privacy) is a good idea. Yet when it is introduced I think a major reworking of faction standing would be proper. And there is some real potential for the ideas listed in this thread.
"If you where truly a nationalist your government would not be ashamed of you"
Our government is not ashamed of us, please provide a basis for this claim.
"Then you have a guild such as RED that claims one thing and proves to be something else, attacking neutral guilds all of the time"
There are two universally recognized neutral guild in Vendetta Online: ORE and EMS. Please provide a basis on which you assert that TGFT is in any way a neutral guild. And if you do not assert that TGFT is a neutral guild, please provide a basis on which you assert that RED attacks neutral guilds.
One can see evidence of TGFT support of [Itan] in abundance, have a look at this freeze frame (http://youtu.be/3kJhsm9zHJM?t=2m30s) of the latest Coalition of Itan PvP video where you can clearly see TGFT's TCFT2 plugin tech being provided as a service exclusively to members of Itan.
You can also hop over to my channel youtube.com/redeternaldominion and see videos of you personally attacking Serco forces in Latos H-2 alongside members of Itan.
No members of ORE or EMS were present, and rightly so.
So I repeat, please provide a basis for your ridiculous claims that TGFT is not the secret underground trading, trident development and support wing of the Coalition of Itan.
Or, in the alternative, keep your trashy TGFT propaganda off the suggestions forum so I don't have to respond in kind.
Our government is not ashamed of us, please provide a basis for this claim.
"Then you have a guild such as RED that claims one thing and proves to be something else, attacking neutral guilds all of the time"
There are two universally recognized neutral guild in Vendetta Online: ORE and EMS. Please provide a basis on which you assert that TGFT is in any way a neutral guild. And if you do not assert that TGFT is a neutral guild, please provide a basis on which you assert that RED attacks neutral guilds.
One can see evidence of TGFT support of [Itan] in abundance, have a look at this freeze frame (http://youtu.be/3kJhsm9zHJM?t=2m30s) of the latest Coalition of Itan PvP video where you can clearly see TGFT's TCFT2 plugin tech being provided as a service exclusively to members of Itan.
You can also hop over to my channel youtube.com/redeternaldominion and see videos of you personally attacking Serco forces in Latos H-2 alongside members of Itan.
No members of ORE or EMS were present, and rightly so.
So I repeat, please provide a basis for your ridiculous claims that TGFT is not the secret underground trading, trident development and support wing of the Coalition of Itan.
Or, in the alternative, keep your trashy TGFT propaganda off the suggestions forum so I don't have to respond in kind.
TGFT is only supporting Itan because RED attacked Surb in Bractus first. He even had higher Serco standing, I believe.