How about "alternative methods of upgrading ships/guns from f2p"? Or is that too much of a mouthful.

@Keller:
No, I did not ignore that part of his argument. I mentioned it at least once (I think twice). The point is, I'm still going to try to flesh out the details for when the dev team can get around to doing this.

Hey everyone, I've added some "microtransactions" (for lack of a better term) to the OP. Here is what I added in case you don't want to delve into the monolithic wall of text:

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$1.99/mo 4/4/1/1/1 Basic Combat Package
$1.99/mo 1/1/1/8/2 Basic Trade Package
$1.99/mo 1/1/U/3/U Heavy Equipment Package
$1.99/mo U/U/1/1/1 Advanced Combat Package : Requires Basic Combat Package
$1.99/mo 4/1/3/U/2 Advanced Trade Package: Requires Basic Trade Package
$1.00/mo 3/3/3/3/3 "Lite" Package

Please note here "microtransactions" means "things f2p players can pay for to get similar content to subscribers, but never more than subs" and also note that these could add up to more than $10/mo if the f2p player is stupid or just wants to support the game more.
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If you have any suggestions on similar thing to this (maybe involving certain ships or weapons for cheaper prices?) and how these packages would interact, please feel free to comment. Or if you have an entirely new paradigm.

I read a good bit of the OP but I couldn't understand a lot of it so ill just give a lecture about f2p.

The best way to implement f2p is the carrot on a stick model. You have a game that is cool, fun and gives hours of enjoyment.

You should give players more reasons to spend time in the game and get more friends to try the game. Trials are a good deal different than f2p too. Trials are all well and good but there is something a lot more grabbing and worthy of my time when someone tells me this is free, entirely free, they don't ask you for money but you can spend money on it if you wish.

So there should be no barrier to playing, no pay X and you get a huge advantage that a player who is playing the game a lot can't get. Then and only then will you get a lot of people trying out the game and hopefully a good proportion who like it staying around.

Now the problem with f2p is the risk involved and a lot of people would argue that "if they won't spend money on a subscription or a 1 time fee why would they ever spend money on things in game?". That is a huge question and actually there is a big example I can draw from.

LoL vs HoN and the rise of mobas and f2p. 3 years ago there were 2 games both were clones or took huge inspiration from an old game called Dota. Dota had a huge following but was old and people saw the potential open market from an already tried game. A startup and a small studio both did seperate business models.

1. HoN did a 1 time only 20 dollar fee for everything in game and a promise that they will never charge their players for anything else other than that fee.
2. LoL was f2p, they gave a hero rotation and to keep a hero you pay or play enough to earn that hero with points. Also there is a skin system for money but no earning of them.

HoN was by far the better game. It had amazing graphics, gameplay and by far people spent less than on LoL. People spent $150 ish in a lot of cases on a game that was free and for HoN max you were spending was 20. LoL was a raging success now it has 40 million active accounts and HoN is dead and is still the better game even though its completely free to play now and doesn't even ask for paying to unlock heroes.

The difference was LoL gave the players the taste of the genre, they offered things to the player with no pressure but was good enough that players still spent money on it.

Subscription models have been on the decline for a long time and the reason is knowing someone is taking 10 dollars out of your account every month pressures the player to spend that time in game. You feel bad if you don't spend the value/time you think. It gives you a pain unless you are a hard core player. For casuals not having that pressure, being able to jump in spend a bit of time and learn the game get better eventually gets you hooked and doesn't make you feel bad about it. Level caps and trials are all the same thing they work the exact same way as subscription models they put pressure on you to choose if you like the game or not and if not get the hell out. If you want people coming and staying for longer to go for he carrot on the string you have to give them more time with it without pressure.

Its all about models, if you hit them right when they start with a screen saying buy X now and we will love you forever it just wont work. It should be a small thing that should be hinted heavily but not pushed directly. Only then will f2p work and that has to be integral to the model. It should also be entirely simple and not use jargon in the brand messaging, something that a 12 year old could figure out. Like 10 dollars buys me 1 million in game dollars and that can get me a whole load of stuff that would be worth that money.

You can do a hybrid model where players can subscribe and get benefits and have f2p as well too. You don't need to choose 1 way to do it. The only thing you have to do is be consistant. It would be huge if the game went f2p. I myself would play the game and depending on the model buy things in game or maybe eventually buy a subscription depending on how much I put time in or how much added value that brings.

At the moment I don't want to buy a subscription, there are a few things that I disliked, they money is completely out of whack and the game itself needs to be deeper but you guys are fixing that with the ideas you said on the kickstarter which are all pretty much making me happy as a potential customer. The only thing I don't like is paying how ever much it costs a month regularly when I definitely won't use it as regularly to justify that subscription and that is why it would catch me in particular if I didn't have to pay for it at least initially.

What is it with noobs and text walls lately?

He answered that question preemptively, Doc:

"I read a good bit of the OP but I couldn't understand a lot of it so ill just give a lecture about f2p. "

At which point I stopped reading.

@Crusader8389

NOTE: Everything I am going to say below doesn't matter as most of people here (probably including you, don't remember) hate me, think I'm idiot and that i suck. Like I care...
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1. I support you
2. The improvements you proposed are a step in good direction and would bring influx of new players into the game... for SOME TIME (shorter or longer).
To make it PERMANENT some other changes are needed, and they are needed NOW. PRIORITY 0.

Sorry to say this guys, but this is a harsh truth. VO is a dull game, where there is almost nothing to do (comparing to other MMO's) if you are not good at twich combat. And there unfortunately is relatively small amount of people who excel at twich combat & are not bored by doing it for too long.

The basic things that all popular MMO's - even the older ones like Diablo II - have and Vendetta doesn't are
A) GRINDING FACTOR
B) RANDOMNESS FACTOR
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A) We cannot do very much about GRINDING factor, since VO is not very grindable by design. The only things that can be done is giving user items that are *NOT* much more powerful in terms of firepower/speed/cargo hold, but instead they only LOOK better while the rest of the stats are almost the same. Of course, users get these items at random for killing different enemies (the stronger the enemy, the bigger chance of getting some cool stuff).
This is what i call "BLING-BLING FACTOR" and it also is enough to make developers earn solid cash in many games, by selling better looking items for cash.
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B) While we cannot do about the previous one, B) is where there is a lot to improve. Let's just name a few possible improvements:

I) Eleminate the "space boredom" coming from its emptyness. Huge idea.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/23854

II) Ion storm jump engine random interference (random sectors / uncharted sectors)
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/23194

II) "More weather systems" v 1.7 beta
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/23806

IV) Different colors of dust storms & roids
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/23193

Another thing that would probably solve the randomness issue completely would be FULLY RANDOM, PROCEDURAL UNIVERSE, but that is so much programming work(actually it is a complete engine rewrite) that it is actually not even worth mentioning as a valid point.
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C) = A) + B) Actually, by joining A + B you get random grindable items/ships which have different look and slightly better stats than normal items, like in most of popular MMOs.

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Judging from the current MMO market it seems that creating a successfull/popular MMO without the BASICS i pointed out above is impossible. All of popular MMO's have either A), B) or both.

@shanefagan:

I've read your comments on both of our threads, and I'm glad you agree with me that f2p should be implemented. Also, the HoN vs LoL is just another example we can add to the list of f2p successes vs subscription model failures, especially in recent times. However, a lot of the ideas you are suggested either won't work in game or will give a non-cosmetic in game advantage to players who pay for them, which is a dangerous road, which inc has clearly stated in this thread the devs will not go down. I'm sorry the OP is so technical, I was aiming it at vets and the devs rather than new players. Anyway, I hope I'll see you in game; if you play for a while you will be hooked as VO is a great game! If you can't afford a $10/mo sub maybe try a "lite" sub for $1/mo or ask around for a friend key to get you started (free 2 weeks).

Sorry guys, this is gonna be another wall of text.

@PoL

While its true I disagree with how you go about trying to get your ideas implemented, I certainly don't hate you. I've mentioned this before so I won't go into much detail, but when you make a suggestion you should be more open to changing your initial idea based on feedback; not the basis of the idea but little things that other people pick up. Often times the people who disagree with you are the ones most likely to give you great additions to your ideas or make sure you avoid fatal errors: for example, in this thread, Nahin disagreed with the OP and mentioned to me that it was partly because at 2/2/2/2/2 you can use an IBG or SVG, so I changed the cap to 1/1/1/1/1.

As for your ideas to make the game better, I agree with most of the ones I've read; that being said, they are mostly either

A: Already in the process of being implemented; get used to this term: soon(tm)

B: Would take too long to implement. Even seemingly simple ideas can take huge amounts of time to implement, debug, and test; especially in a 3D mmo where no mistakes can be made, or there will be major consequences. (example: trade buoys. Thats player-owned-capship-length development time there, maybe even longer because capships were already in the game to begin with)

Your right; VO needs more content, but its best to rely on the dev's strengths and stick with the procedurally generated content coming soon(tm) to spice things up. And as you mentioned earlier, we can't do much about the grind aspect without totally changing the way the game works.

Now, onto my point: the "lite" subscription model is implemented in a very, VERY similar fashion to the f2p model I am proposing. This f2p model would not only be fun to play for free, but also provide large incentives to become a subscriber. It should be easier to implement because the code for the "lite" model is already there. The only snag I've ran into is that the devs want to add microtransactions to the picture, which increases the development time exponentially, however if we can work it out they should be able to do it in a reasonable amount of time.

However, I also believe that the lack of an f2p option is the main barrier to the game having more players. With more players, an open ended game like this with less content can actually be very fun for sustained periods of time. But I guess its like asking which should go first, the chicken or the egg. While the game needs both (more content and more players), its hard to get more content without more players to pay for more devs, and its hard to get more players without more content from a small amount of devs. It's essentially a catch 22, but since the game is so good to begin with and they've spent a great deal of time getting it to where it is now, I think it can work out to where this will be the biggest space mmo out there.

Ok finally I will make a point for real this time; basically what I've been trying to say these past few paragraphs is that if we want to help the devs make this game better, we (the suggesters on the forums) need to give them as much detail as possible, list the potential glitches, take player feedback into account, and minimize the development time all in one, prepackaged deal which they can either take in at a glance or delve into for more detail as needed. Which is what I'm trying to do with this thread.

But in order to do that I need more feedback on the "microtransactions"; can you give me some ideas or comment on the existing ones?

Well, that problem solved itself. Keep on posting your text walls at eachother, keep yourselves busy. ;)

^ indeed

Lol, walls of text are very fun to write if it is a good subject.

@Crusader8389

### I've been trying to say these past few paragraphs is that if we want to help the devs make this game better, ###

Well, i guess the devs (all THE 2 OF THEM - i seriously doubt there still is more than 2 of devs maintaining VO) do not want our help for some reason.

I mean people offered to work on the C/C++ engine for free, i have offered to install a proper PHP forum for free. Probably more people offered more things in the past (also for free), but they refused.

This thread is a solid example of the primary reason that I, at least, will be making my return to VO a brief one. Crusader presented his ideas earnestly and politely and has been treated like complete shit in this thread in return. You may not like his ideas, be completely opposed to F2P, or just wish the topic would stop coming up, but that's no excuse for the insults.

Some of you don't want to deal with the behavior you think that F2P players will bring to the game. Well guess what, you've already got it. The existing core player base is insular and fairly hostile towards new players. And no, I'm not talking about PvP. The insults and general disdain hurled about not just on channel 100 but on channel 1 as well match anything I've seen in F2P games.

The devs already have to deal with the almost impossible situation of needing a fully developed and polished game to get paying players but also needing paying players in order to be able to fully develop and polish the game. Having a segment of the core player base act like complete shits to the new players they're trying to draw in certainly doesn't make their task easier.

It's a shame because VO has so much potential. As it stands though the game really hasn't progressed very much since I last played and certainly not enough to put up with the elitist attitudes exemplified by many of the posts in this thread. Any asshole can subscribe to a game, but it takes a special effort to actively harm the game that you're trying to support with that subscription.

"Crusader presented his ideas earnestly and politely"

But not succinctly, which is what is giving everybody the shits.

F2P threads have been done to death. There should be a sticky of F2P threads so they don't have to be done again and again. The arguments are all recycled, everybody knows why F2P is good, everybody KNOWS it's the market standard for MMO's today, EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT VENDETTA WOULD BE BETTER WITH MORE GOOD PLAYERS and finally...

...Everybody should know that nothing is going to be done about it in the interim at least until the kickstarter is completed.

Not that me saying it will in any way stop the onslaught of discussion.

I will insult back when I'm insulted.

RedSpy's right, F2P has been discussed to death and there's no point anyway, as the devs are tied up in too much to spend six months on implementing any form of F2P.

"almost nothing to do (comparing to other MMO's) if you are not good at twich[sic] combat."

Are you high? I am terrible at combat in VO, that makes boomin an enemy even more enjoyable for me. I know a ton of folk (actually, given the average size if a lot of gamer types... probably several tons of folk) who suck at twitch and still love VOs combat system.

@ryan reign

### Are you high? I am terrible at combat in VO, that makes boomin an enemy even more enjoyable for me. ###

In my suggestions I made multiple points why Vendetta is so dull (and you know them while pretending you do not). I will not be repeating myself again.

Check out these:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/23854
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/23194

One thread doesn't give a cross-section of VO's playerbase, and channel 100 does not represent the zeitgeist of the in-game population. Taking it to be such would be a mistake. If we're civil to each other, there may be a thoughtful discussion waiting to take place here. Arguments do not need to be re-stated; "brevity is the soul of wit".

Losers too stupid to rub two pennies together can bugger off.
Losers who want official methods by which to cheat can bugger off.
Losers who want their ship to wear a funny hat can bugger off.
Losers who want to simply conform can bugger off.

I do not care that they would increase the size of the playerbase. I do not care if they would increase the profit the devs make. I do not care if it turns out to be the only way to "save the game". I do not care.

Why?

Because I want a game that is fun. Not a shopping experience. I can surround myself with idiots simply by walking outside. Loading the game with freeloaders would not make it more fun, end of story.

If we piss those people off and scare them away... so what?

They can ramble on with their messianic delusions in some other locale. The game has survived without them and will likely continue that way. If it doesn't, then it doesn't deserve to live anyway. If it became the crapheap that all these f2p morons want it to become, I'd stop playing.

Seriously. Go play one of those other oh so successful games that use f2p and microtransactions and are filled with plenty of society's dregs and have all that "depth" and "stuff to do". You want to play in the muck, then go do it. There is no need to drag this game down with you.

@Pizzasgood

###I do not care that they would increase the size of the playerbase. I do not care if they would increase the profit the devs make. I do not care if it turns out to be the only way to "save the game". I do not care.
(...)
If we piss those people off and scare them away... so what?
They can ramble on with their messianic delusions in some other locale. The game has survived without them and will likely continue that way. If it doesn't, then it doesn't deserve to live anyway. ###

I wonder if the devs agree with your view.

Anyway, another approach is to attract the freeloaders and THEN convert them to "our ways" instead of outright scaring them off.

Anyway, outside world is evolving faster and faster and this game seems to have stopped evolving about 10 years ago, together with its community.
EVOLVE OR DIE - that is the way of the nature and that is the way of the free market.

From your post i would assume that your answer is "i would rather die". Be careful what you wish for.
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### Because I want a game that is fun. Not a shopping experience. I can surround myself with idiots simply by walking outside. Loading the game with freeloaders would not make it more fun, end of story. ###

Contrary to your belief, the game can be fun even with freeloaders if the system is well-balanced and thought out.