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@ nahin:
Like I said, bumps. Can you honestly tell me we have more players now then we had more towards the beginning of vo? You and I both know the current rise in population is due to the fundraiser.
Like I said, bumps. Can you honestly tell me we have more players now then we had more towards the beginning of vo? You and I both know the current rise in population is due to the fundraiser.
You and I both know that neither of us can tell anything about activity other than what we roughly perceive; we don't have an active players list anymore. Dev stats would be nice but I doubt they'll post them.
I have perceived more activity than previously. Maybe it's a timezone difference. Maybe you don't play enough. You weren't here at the beginning of VO so I have no idea why you're even commenting on that.
I have perceived more activity than previously. Maybe it's a timezone difference. Maybe you don't play enough. You weren't here at the beginning of VO so I have no idea why you're even commenting on that.
We can speculate from our experiences and from 100 chatter. Went on today and there was 4 people talking. Joy. Went to b8, no one there. Again. Compare that to a few years back when there was at least 5 people there at all times!
There was not at least 5 people in B-8 at all times; you're completely delusional. Combat has moved away from B-8 because people got bored with duel etiquette and now people roam all over.
According to Crazy's bot, there are 12 people chatting on public, monitored channels (that IRC monitors) as of this post.
According to Crazy's bot, there are 12 people chatting on public, monitored channels (that IRC monitors) as of this post.
Okay, Cru. Here's a counter argument. Let's assume for a minute that f2p would dramatically increase the player base. (not a gimme to be honest - many of the former p2p games built a reputation before going f2p, so they had historical momentum on their side) Nevertheless, let's further accept the premise that 95% of the player base would be these very low level f2p players. There's no psychological impetus for them to want to advance beyond 2/2/2/2/2. Yes, they don't have all the toys the paying players have, but they have the same toys that 95% of the player base has, and while it's a kindergarten playground to the rest of us, most f2p players will see the opportunity to rule that playground, even though they get killed occasionally by those with better toys. Now some will indeed get annoyed enough that they will go ahead and subscribe to gain access to those toys, but most won't. Why should they? They can have all the fun they need with the free stuff. Yes, the cargo bays are smaller, and they won't earn as much money trading. So what, the smaller ships allow for more than sufficient income to maintain the ships available at that level. The same goes with PvP ships. Without a game reason for subscribing (and bigger, faster ships and bigger, nastier weapons I'm afraid won't cut it), that 95% of the player base doing f2p just won't be subscribing.
Now, someone will argue that again "so what" since the player base is bigger and presumably gives VO greater visibility. This gets to the other half of my counterargument. It costs money to manage bandwidth. A dramatic increase in the player base requires a similar increase in the supported bandwidth, and this f2p scheme just massively increased the server bandwidth required without having any additional income. It quickly becomes a losing proposition, as Guild Software may not be able to afford that greater bandwidth over so short a period of its increase. That would lead to higher ping times and ultimately start driving away the player base as f2p player notoriously have less patience than paying players. (odd, isn't it?)
Now this doesn't mean the f2p doesn't have merit. (just like microtransactions) It DOES mean however there needs to a game reason for a player to want (actually be compelled) to subscribe. It comes down to content, which is something we really need more of. The current content model would not support thousands new players, because the most likely thing they'll all start doing is to start fragging each other (even in nation space); it wouldn't take long for them to wonder "Is this all there is?" Once that riveting new content is provided, players will naturally want to pay for playing, so then introducing an f2p model (or even microtransactions model) will make sense.
Now, someone will argue that again "so what" since the player base is bigger and presumably gives VO greater visibility. This gets to the other half of my counterargument. It costs money to manage bandwidth. A dramatic increase in the player base requires a similar increase in the supported bandwidth, and this f2p scheme just massively increased the server bandwidth required without having any additional income. It quickly becomes a losing proposition, as Guild Software may not be able to afford that greater bandwidth over so short a period of its increase. That would lead to higher ping times and ultimately start driving away the player base as f2p player notoriously have less patience than paying players. (odd, isn't it?)
Now this doesn't mean the f2p doesn't have merit. (just like microtransactions) It DOES mean however there needs to a game reason for a player to want (actually be compelled) to subscribe. It comes down to content, which is something we really need more of. The current content model would not support thousands new players, because the most likely thing they'll all start doing is to start fragging each other (even in nation space); it wouldn't take long for them to wonder "Is this all there is?" Once that riveting new content is provided, players will naturally want to pay for playing, so then introducing an f2p model (or even microtransactions model) will make sense.
@ Keller:
First off, thanks for providing a real argument against f2p. I cannot thank you enough for actually providing something for me to work with.
The first part of your post mentions there is no impetus to go from f2p to a subscriber. However, I'd have to disagree with you there. Since there will be about 20 f2p players to 1 subscriber, in a given sector of about 5-10 players on average, a subscriber, properly equipped, could wipe the floor with those 5-10 players of the same combat calibre and the f2p players weren't rich or lucky enough to get their hands on the rarer weapons. Like you said, the f2p player base general isn't the patient type; they will see the benefits of being a member and desire that power. I mean, doesn't almost everyone want more power? There are few exceptions to this rule.
Consider also that grey would be a great area to pick up some rarer ship setups for f2p, and that they will most likely get slaughtered in mass numbers there as well, and because of their inferior ship setups they won't be able to fight back very well at all, even in numbers. The f2p player's goal to either become a great trader, miner, pvper, capship maker, etc would be then nearly dependent upon that f2p player becoming a subscriber, otherwise he is one of the mediocre crowd who doesn't get noticed. Also, I mentioned earlier the peer pressure aspect pushing the f2p players to subscribe; once one of their friends gets enough spare cash together to subscribe, said friend will peer pressure the f2p player to become a subscriber because it is so much better. As for more content, think of all the things that unlock past 1/1/1/1/1 (leaning towards that atm b/c of some stuff nahin informed me of); hive missions, border skirms, many pcc created mission trees, new ships, weapons, bounty hunting, soloing queens, and many more things than I could possibly list here. Although there is a slight lack in content as a whole, there is enough for now for the system to work.
Now for the next part of your discussion, I must say it has a lot of merit. You mentioned that bandwidth is a problem with an increased number of players which I hadn't really considered before. However, if a dev is reading this thread, a comment on this particular point would be appreciated. (e.g. whether or not the current servers could handle that huge an increase in bandwidth, and whether they have the means to increase the bandwidth if needed).
First off, thanks for providing a real argument against f2p. I cannot thank you enough for actually providing something for me to work with.
The first part of your post mentions there is no impetus to go from f2p to a subscriber. However, I'd have to disagree with you there. Since there will be about 20 f2p players to 1 subscriber, in a given sector of about 5-10 players on average, a subscriber, properly equipped, could wipe the floor with those 5-10 players of the same combat calibre and the f2p players weren't rich or lucky enough to get their hands on the rarer weapons. Like you said, the f2p player base general isn't the patient type; they will see the benefits of being a member and desire that power. I mean, doesn't almost everyone want more power? There are few exceptions to this rule.
Consider also that grey would be a great area to pick up some rarer ship setups for f2p, and that they will most likely get slaughtered in mass numbers there as well, and because of their inferior ship setups they won't be able to fight back very well at all, even in numbers. The f2p player's goal to either become a great trader, miner, pvper, capship maker, etc would be then nearly dependent upon that f2p player becoming a subscriber, otherwise he is one of the mediocre crowd who doesn't get noticed. Also, I mentioned earlier the peer pressure aspect pushing the f2p players to subscribe; once one of their friends gets enough spare cash together to subscribe, said friend will peer pressure the f2p player to become a subscriber because it is so much better. As for more content, think of all the things that unlock past 1/1/1/1/1 (leaning towards that atm b/c of some stuff nahin informed me of); hive missions, border skirms, many pcc created mission trees, new ships, weapons, bounty hunting, soloing queens, and many more things than I could possibly list here. Although there is a slight lack in content as a whole, there is enough for now for the system to work.
Now for the next part of your discussion, I must say it has a lot of merit. You mentioned that bandwidth is a problem with an increased number of players which I hadn't really considered before. However, if a dev is reading this thread, a comment on this particular point would be appreciated. (e.g. whether or not the current servers could handle that huge an increase in bandwidth, and whether they have the means to increase the bandwidth if needed).
@ nahin
Lets assume for a moment that you are correct and the player base has not been steadily decreasing over the years (which I am not entirely convinced of). The fact still remains that it is indeed not increasing enough to fill all the space in vo (e.g. have chokepoints at least sometimes have more than 1 person in them). This leads to having to actively seek out other players in order to get player-player interaction.
An example is the best way for me to illustrate this. Queens are a "boss" that players can fight for some decent rewards ("loot"). The last 15 times I've gone to hunt a queen, there was no one else there. Now imagine if the number of players increased, how that would change. If I go into a queen and someone else is already fighting said queen, it could lead to all kinds of crazy scenarios including a race for the loot similar to what happens at levis (which once again is hard to find players to do with), or a crazy furball with several factions trying to pick each other off before killing the queen themselves. That kind of accidental player player interaction is what makes most games and mmos worth sticking around for longer. At least imho.
Lets assume for a moment that you are correct and the player base has not been steadily decreasing over the years (which I am not entirely convinced of). The fact still remains that it is indeed not increasing enough to fill all the space in vo (e.g. have chokepoints at least sometimes have more than 1 person in them). This leads to having to actively seek out other players in order to get player-player interaction.
An example is the best way for me to illustrate this. Queens are a "boss" that players can fight for some decent rewards ("loot"). The last 15 times I've gone to hunt a queen, there was no one else there. Now imagine if the number of players increased, how that would change. If I go into a queen and someone else is already fighting said queen, it could lead to all kinds of crazy scenarios including a race for the loot similar to what happens at levis (which once again is hard to find players to do with), or a crazy furball with several factions trying to pick each other off before killing the queen themselves. That kind of accidental player player interaction is what makes most games and mmos worth sticking around for longer. At least imho.
This is another reason why we're doing a Kickstarter. More people, more publicity, etc.
At least we agree on something nahin :p
Just curious crusader what would get you to sub? honest answer pls. Then maybe we can talk about other people subbing also. NOT a flame really just curious
Actually, the reason I am not subbed currently isn't to do with game content, its because I am a poor college student who is literally flat broke. I have about 70 cents in my bank account atm. Once I finish this semester and get a job, I'll definitely get back to subbing. But like I said, I'm not the only one in this kind of situation; a lot of the younger crowd can't even get access to a bank account, which is why the $1 thing just won't do.
If the parents of the younger crowd do not support them playing the game, then there is no reason they should be on here. There are plenty of ways for children to earn a little money to pay back their parents, too.
@nahin:
While I appreciate your sentiment, a lot of the people who play mmos are children. This is one of the reasons the f2p player base is usually much larger than the paying one. Idk about what morals are involved, I'd rather have this game have a massive number of players so it is more fun to play.
While I appreciate your sentiment, a lot of the people who play mmos are children. This is one of the reasons the f2p player base is usually much larger than the paying one. Idk about what morals are involved, I'd rather have this game have a massive number of players so it is more fun to play.
and thank you for being honest in your situation about being broke, can understand that well.
I have seen when young kids get on and the filth that spews from their mouths their farther would die. and the nice names they make up to play with or the racist chants, spam anything to get our attention, no thanks would rather have more mature players than more asswipes that want attention from mommy, daddy and us players in game.
and I have to side with Nahin in that I started about 1 month ago and have seen more players online now than I did then.
I have seen when young kids get on and the filth that spews from their mouths their farther would die. and the nice names they make up to play with or the racist chants, spam anything to get our attention, no thanks would rather have more mature players than more asswipes that want attention from mommy, daddy and us players in game.
and I have to side with Nahin in that I started about 1 month ago and have seen more players online now than I did then.
@ sleepy:
I've seen more mature adults spew the same filth on vo.
I've seen more mature adults spew the same filth on vo.
"I'll be forced to assume my logic is completely and totally correct, and you guys are just trolling the OP because of some unknown hatred for the game as a whole."
If you are forced to assume that we're just trolling you because of some unknown hatred for the game as a whole... the majority of us will be forced to assume that you area monumental idiot of PoL proportions.
Know how you can tell we don't hate the game? We all pay for it.
If you are forced to assume that we're just trolling you because of some unknown hatred for the game as a whole... the majority of us will be forced to assume that you area monumental idiot of PoL proportions.
Know how you can tell we don't hate the game? We all pay for it.
You do not need a bank account at all to play this game. Just tag along when the rents are grocery shopping and buy yourself a general purpose gift card, and use that to pay the sub.
As for money, you can scrounge more than $1/mo just from checking the vending machines at school for loose change. (One of the schools I went to sold really good fresh macadamia nut cookies in the hallways on tuesday and thursday afternoons for $0.35, so I'd save any loose change I came across for buying those.)
And of course, you can make way more by actually doing stuff.
People who can't figure out how to pay the lite sub really don't need to be playing at all. An increased population would be nice, sure, but not if they're dumber than the NPCs.
As for money, you can scrounge more than $1/mo just from checking the vending machines at school for loose change. (One of the schools I went to sold really good fresh macadamia nut cookies in the hallways on tuesday and thursday afternoons for $0.35, so I'd save any loose change I came across for buying those.)
And of course, you can make way more by actually doing stuff.
People who can't figure out how to pay the lite sub really don't need to be playing at all. An increased population would be nice, sure, but not if they're dumber than the NPCs.
@rin:
It's not that I can't get the cash, its that I don't have the time to get it. I'm a full time student and I need all A's this semester to graduate, which means dealing with all the busy work they give me for my courses. In particular, one course's group project practically requires me to spend all of my free time tuesday,wednesday, thursday, friday working on it to even get a C! The other ones are a lot easier but still give out HW. Also, I've already used all the leftover change I have. And I'd rather not go scrounging for change anywhere else. And I think I've given out enough info on my real life for this thread...
EDIT:
I'd rather have an increased pop, even if they are dumber than NPCs. Any player-player interaction is better than none; even someone dumb can blow up your moth in nation space while you weren't expecting it, or a few of em could even turn the tide of a furball. If you don't want to talk to them "/ignore" or "/vote mute" or just talk on your guild/another channel (there are a lot of channels unused on vo!). Then you have the benefits of an increased population, and also talking only to people you want to (boring).
Also, people from 10-18 in age are on vo all the time; are you forgetting trial accounts? For the first 8 hours they can chat on 100 all they want, but do they? Most of the time, the answer is either
A. no
B. yes, but they just are on to ask questions.
It's not that I can't get the cash, its that I don't have the time to get it. I'm a full time student and I need all A's this semester to graduate, which means dealing with all the busy work they give me for my courses. In particular, one course's group project practically requires me to spend all of my free time tuesday,wednesday, thursday, friday working on it to even get a C! The other ones are a lot easier but still give out HW. Also, I've already used all the leftover change I have. And I'd rather not go scrounging for change anywhere else. And I think I've given out enough info on my real life for this thread...
EDIT:
I'd rather have an increased pop, even if they are dumber than NPCs. Any player-player interaction is better than none; even someone dumb can blow up your moth in nation space while you weren't expecting it, or a few of em could even turn the tide of a furball. If you don't want to talk to them "/ignore" or "/vote mute" or just talk on your guild/another channel (there are a lot of channels unused on vo!). Then you have the benefits of an increased population, and also talking only to people you want to (boring).
Also, people from 10-18 in age are on vo all the time; are you forgetting trial accounts? For the first 8 hours they can chat on 100 all they want, but do they? Most of the time, the answer is either
A. no
B. yes, but they just are on to ask questions.
You have, we have concluded that you are in far to dire straits to worry about a game. Go and get help.
@ ryan:
Heh, while I appreciate the sentiment, I've played this game for a loooong time and really want it to go further than it is. It's always been pretty empty, and I'd like it if it wasn't so much. I can take care of myself. And I was just saying "I'll be forced to assume..." to provoke a reaction out of you guys, and it worked because thats when people actually started trying to help by critiquing my idea.
Heh, while I appreciate the sentiment, I've played this game for a loooong time and really want it to go further than it is. It's always been pretty empty, and I'd like it if it wasn't so much. I can take care of myself. And I was just saying "I'll be forced to assume..." to provoke a reaction out of you guys, and it worked because thats when people actually started trying to help by critiquing my idea.