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Bitcoin payment method

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Mar 29, 2012 PhoenixVoice link
aka

"a herp derp guys this bank got robbed last night, WE BETTER SELL ALL OF OUR USD AND NEVER USE IT AGAIN"

or, aka

"I cannot read a single post in this thread, and certainly not one of the several posts where Gary dismisses this as the bs that it is"


Actually, there are many things in place to help protect banks and secure money in banks as well as things to insure the money you have in a bank. There are enough protections and incentives , as well as tracking possiblities and identifcations, that even if a bank gets robbed it has little to no effect on USD. However, based on some of the possible numbers of BTC available and the way the system is set up it is actually possible that it could have a significant impact. However, that was not my point in saying that. My point is that BitCoin is not "safe" for consumer and buisness alike. It is still new and still has many problems to work out before it can ever be considered "safe."


This just furthers the evidence that you cannot read ANY posts. Especially not the very first post of this entire thread, where I've stated the reason I want to use Bitcoins is because I do not want to use a CC or PayPal. C'mon now, reading is *not that difficult*.


There is also PayByCash and Zeevex.

This was in your first post that you claim I cannot read:

Zeevex is a great option, I can even pay by cash simply by going to any GameStop.

So then what is the problem?

You state:


I also don't entirely feel safe entering my CC info into a random website, despite how big and how old the website is.


Ok, and so then they are supposed to trust you? They are supposed to trust Bitcoin which has a factual proven track record of not being trustworthy?

EDIT: This random website which has been around longer than bitcoin actually has a much much much better track record and has been proven to be more trustworthy than bitcoin. Just thought I would throw that little bit of info out there for you to think about.
Mar 29, 2012 Gary13579 link
"Funny how you tell people not to "resort to hostile or argumentative posts" and then insult and argue with everyone who is against the idea you present."

Because I've given up. Everyone on these forums appears to either be moronic, a troll, or just sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU, MY PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS ON A SUBJECT I KNOW LITTLE ABOUT ARE 100% CORRECT". Why should I bother continuing debating about it? If the developers read this thread, I'd be amazed if they did anything but shake their heads at the state of the community, let alone actually implement Bitcoin.

"If I ignored all the problems with your suggestion, I'd rather bitcoin not be a payment option simply because I don't think your attitude would be healthy for the community, and it seems you don't want to play the game without being able to use bitcoin."

Please point out the so called "problems" in my "COLD HARD FACTS" statement. It is funny how not a single person has been able to refute anything I stated there yet.

Regardless, I am still playing the game even without Bitcoin. That does not make Bitcoin any less viable or any less of a great idea for the game, just as the rest of the statements in this thread do not make it any less of a great idea.

"Actually, there are many things in place to help protect banks and secure money in banks as well as things to insure the money you have in a bank. There are enough protections and incentives , as well as tracking possiblities and identifcations, that even if a bank gets robbed it has little to no effect on USD. However, based on some of the possible numbers of BTC available and the way the system is set up it is actually possible that it could have a significant impact. However, that was not my point in saying that. My point is that BitCoin is not "safe" for consumer and buisness alike. It is still new and still has many problems to work out before it can ever be considered "safe.""

Cool story bro. You should actually read the article you linked, especially the part where no consumers lost any BTC. And especially the part where VO wouldn't hold onto any BTC. Well gee, if the users don't lose BTC, and the business doesn't lose BTC, where's the problem? Besides, any consumer who keeps more than a minimal amount of BTC in any cloud storage service, or in another persons hands, is a moron. The money is not FDIC insured, and they know it. It's just giving your money to someone else and hoping they keep it safe for you. Common sense. Regardless, implementing Bitcoins is not, I repeat, NOT an attempt at convincing VO users to use it. Don't want to? FINE, DON'T. THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE WHO WOULD USE IT. People that know of Bitcoin's so called "security problems". So please, if a Bitcoin user wants to spend some Bitcoins on VO, please tell me how that is *anyones* problem. VO profits, the end user profits, it's a smooth and flawless transaction. You cannot refute it, nor can anyone in this entire damn thread, so instead you run around in circles trying to attack Bitcoin itself. I'm fucking tired of it.

"This random website which has been around longer than bitcoin actually has a much much much better track record and has been proven to be more trustworthy than bitcoin."

Wait, what? Are you comparing VO to Bitcoin, or comparing VO to Bitcoin related websites that have been hacked? There is a huge difference, bro. C'mon now, don't be a moron. Bitcoin *itself* has never been hacked in a manner that anyone gained or lost money. Implying that because, say, Linode got hacked (which, btw, is older and generally faaaaar more secure than VO could ever hope to be) that Bitcoin is less secure is like saying that because Amazon got hacked, VISA sucks. It makes no sense. How do you people even see logic in this argument...?
Mar 29, 2012 PhoenixVoice link
Ok, so then when the article states that a significant amount of BTC was stolen (enough to amount to thousands of USD) then no money was lost? Does that mean that BTC isn't really currency and thus has no real value?

Also, how are you not "sticking your fingers in your ears and going LALALALALA" when we try to point things out to you that could/should be major concerns when choosing to accept a method of payment?

I understand that you may not see many risks with BTC, but there are obviously things about it that are sketchy and are cause for concern before someone just starts accepting that they want to accept your made up money that many people don't accept has any monetary value yet.

Like you said, if something were to happen to BTC then there is nothing set up to protect you or reimburse you for your loss. In your example, if someone hacked Amazon and gathered customers info and credit card numbers then there are at least a few things that could be done and ways of tracing it.

I understand that if VO did start to accept BTC then they could go through all the trouble to take the BTC, transfer it via some service into cash, and then deposit said cash into their account. They could also monitor and make sure the proper transfer rates are displayed and if any changes are made inbetween you submitting your BTC and the money actually making it to the account then they could then reply that it wasn't enough and they need more BTC from you until they have exactly enough actually in an account to accept it. Or if it went in the other direction then there would be required a way to pay you back the small difference because they could only take the amount they stated. However, that really is a huge pain in the ass for such a small amount of people that would actually be using the service. Especially when it's easier for the customer to just get their hands on an acceptable method of payment.

Now, even if that isn't enough, then lets go into the reputation. BTC has been noted as being a way to "launder money." There are sketchy people that use BTC and they do so anonymously. So, by using that service and "associating" with it, then it is actually possible to have your companys reputation messed up because it has been known to accept this payment and thus "supports" anything that someone who uses this service does. I know you may not understand how that works but this is not something that VO needs to risk especially now that they are trying to expand into larger markets. The wrong people get the wrong idea and start spreading negativity and then all your hard work just gets flushed down the toilet.
Mar 29, 2012 Gary13579 link
"Ok, so then when the article states that a significant amount of BTC was stolen (enough to amount to thousands of USD) then no money was lost? Does that mean that BTC isn't really currency and thus has no real value?"

The money that was lost was the pool owners. No consumers lost money. Again, this isn't a flaw in Bitcoin, this is a flaw in Linode. If you are going to say Linode sucks, I must repeat, they have higher secuity than VO.

"Also, how are you not "sticking your fingers in your ears and going LALALALALA" when we try to point things out to you that could/should be major concerns when choosing to accept a method of payment?"

Because you have not made a single argument against Bitcoin that is legitimate besides popularity. And that doesn't really matter as long as people are willing to give BTC to VO.

"I understand that you may not see many risks with BTC, but there are obviously things about it that are sketchy and are cause for concern before someone just starts accepting that they want to accept your made up money that many people don't accept has any monetary value yet."

Uh, again, HAVE YOU EVEN READ MY POSTS? AT ALL DUDE? Jesus... VO does not take Bitcoins. They accept them as payment then sell them immediately. This would all be automated. VO would get the money, in real, digital United States Dollars within 10 minutes of the user sending the BTC to MtGox. They get exactly $10/month, no volatility. There is ZERO RISK to VO because of this. I don't know how to explain this any simpler, but VO will not be making or accepting "made up money", they get REAL US DOLLARS IMMEDIATELY.

I'm having a hard time even reading the rest of your post, because you obviously have chosen not to read mine.
Mar 29, 2012 blood.thirsty link
Mar 29, 2012 PhoenixVoice link
I'm having a hard time even reading your posts because you have obviously decided not to read mine.

I understand you think that just because this seems like a good idea that it should automatically be fully accepted everywhere just because you all go and troll forums to try and get people to think that you are right. Sadly, we aren't as easy as a 2BitCoin hooker (see what I did there?). We actually research things and think about them and require more proof then "that could never even happen and I mean it could never even be a problem and everything is fine so just trust me I'm right and you're wrong and until you accept that I will just call you names and act like everything you say is stupid." I mean that probably works with your parents or something but it takes a whole lot more than that to actually make something look worth it especially if there is alot of negativity surrounding it.
Mar 29, 2012 Gary13579 link
'We actually research things and think about them and require more proof then "that could never even happen and I mean it could never even be a problem and everything is fine so just trust me I'm right and you're wrong and until you accept that I will just call you names and act like everything you say is stupid."'

Damn, you are daft. When have I ever done this? When have you shown a vulnerability or an issue in my COLD HARD FACTS statement? No one has. I have asked people to at LEAST a damn dozen times now. You won't, because you cannot. It is a risk free, acceptable method of getting USD and allowing people to pay with Bitcoins.

I am still waiting. Refute it. Prove me wrong. Because as of yet, YOU HAVE NOT. So do it already, if you think that you are so correct and that Bitcoins are so flawed.

I repeat, because everyone seems to ignore my challenge: DO IT.
Mar 29, 2012 PhoenixVoice link
You can cry fowl (caw caw!) all you want on BTC, but the cold, hard facts are that this is incredibly low risk for VO, they will never have to deal with chargebacks, the fees are a tiny fraction of what PayPal charges, and players will be able to play the game and support the developers for FREE. No amount of evidence or counter claims issued so far in this thread has disproved any of these facts. If I have missed a rebuttal that you feel counters them, please point it out to me.

I'm assuming that this is what you mean by COLD HARD FACTS statement.

1. We are stating and have made valid points to prove that this is not incredibily low risk for VO

2. If there ever was something to happen where a chargeback was needed then yes, there COULD be a time when they would have to deal with chargebacks.

3. The fees might be a tiny fraction of what paypal charges, however there are more things to consider in a BitCoin vs. PayPal debate other than fees

4. I don't see how players could play VO and support the developers for "FREE." Everything costs money in one way or another. From what I can tell alot of BitCoin users use real money to buy bitcoins. If that is the case then they have paid money to buy bitcoins and spent money by spending bitcoins. That is not free. If they aquired the bitcoins by bitcoin mining or walking around in some game looking at crap then they have had to do something in exchange for the bitcoins so also not free. Even data mining costs the money of running the computer to mine the data. So...not FREE.

EDIT: I now know more than I ever wanted to about bitcoin. Ugh...the things one will do when bored...
Mar 29, 2012 Gary13579 link
You actually had me mildly concerned that you would discover a flaw in it, until that post. You're basically grasping at straws -- either that, or your basic logic circuits are so fundamentally flawed that you cannot see how that post is utter bs. Let me line it out for you, but I don't want to waste too much time, because you will not listen to logic anyway. Anything to win an internet fight!

"1. We are stating and have made valid points to prove that this is not incredibily low risk for VO"

No, you have not. What could happen? Honestly, tell me. VO gets hacked? Why would they get hacked? They have 0 Bitcoins on their servers, there is NO incentive to hack them as there is nothing to steal. Notice how EVERY website that has been hacked, hasn't been hacked for the lulz. They've been hacked with the intention of stealing Bitcoins. MtGox sells their BTC immediately. The coins never touch VO's servers, not even for a millisecond. You keep repeating "BITCOIN RELATED SITES HAVE BEEN HACKED, THEREFORE USING BITCOIN = U GETTING HACKED LOLOL" as if it were a mantra without seeming to understand that with 0 bitcoins, there is 0 incentive to hack. Basic logic.

"2. If there ever was something to happen where a chargeback was needed then yes, there COULD be a time when they would have to deal with chargebacks. "

Chargebacks are simply not possible in Bitcoin.

"3. The fees might be a tiny fraction of what paypal charges, however there are more things to consider in a BitCoin vs. PayPal debate other than fees"

Funny, you take one of Bitcoin's strongest points, then counter it with "WELL, THERE ARE *THINGS* YOU NEED TO CONSIDER!" then do not list them. As I said at the start of my post, grasping at straws.

"4. I don't see how players could play VO and support the developers for "FREE." Everything costs money in one way or another. From what I can tell alot of BitCoin users use real money to buy bitcoins. If that is the case then they have paid money to buy bitcoins and spent money by spending bitcoins. That is not free. If they aquired the bitcoins by bitcoin mining or walking around in some game looking at crap then they have had to do something in exchange for the bitcoins so also not free. Even data mining costs the money of running the computer to mine the data. So...not FREE."

k so apparently you both misunderstand logic AND math. Let's say you mine $30 worth of Bitcoin in a month. It cost you $15 to run your computer for that month. That means, a total net gain of $15. If you pay for VO with that $15, you just got a month (and a half!) for FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. Basic math. Really, really, really basic math. Either you honestly cannot do simple calculations that I have already laid out in this thread, or you are just making stuff up (grasping at straws!) to try to disprove my COLD HARD FACTS in a rather weak manner.

Once again, I shall raise you the challenge to disprove my COLD HARD FACTS. If you can do that, I will concede that Bitcoin is not for VO.
Mar 29, 2012 TerranAmbassador link
I am still waiting. Refute it. Prove me wrong. Because as of yet, YOU HAVE NOT. So do it already, if you think that you are so correct and that Bitcoins are so flawed.

I repeat, because everyone seems to ignore my challenge: DO IT.


I'd just like to toss a couple credits in and point out that Gary13579 is committing a logical fallacy:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html

Put simply: The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, not the other guy. You have to prove yourself right, not the other way around.
Mar 29, 2012 Whistler link
Okay I've locked this because I think we're done here.

The purported aim of the thread was to suggest to the devs that they adopt the use of Bitcoin. The suggestion has been made. I'm sure that they were already well aware of Bitcoin before this, but you can consider them reminded. If the devs wish to respond, they know how to contact you.
Mar 30, 2012 incarnate link
I've heard of bitcoin, and I'm not inherently against supporting new commerce models. In general though, our biggest issue is whether the value in the form of new or requesting users will match up to the development investment. We still haven't implemented a couple of big cellphone-based commerce systems that are very widely used in Europe and Asia (and by widely, I mean millions and millions of transactions per day). Bitcoin is a pretty fascinating experiment, but it hasn't yet reached the kind of critical mass we need to spend the time in both supporting and maintaining it (and there is a whole ongoing maintenance and customer-service hassle with any commerce mechanic).

So, I'm not ruling it out in the future, I'm just currently allocating our time to game development.