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Suggestion thread about minor factions

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Feb 01, 2011 astib link
Ryan, you misunderstood me since I put it slightly unclear, sorry. I am for playable minor factions. I am against new, flat PIRATE faction, as you can play Secro Corsair, or Corvus Pirate .

Thats a big difference. So I generally agree with you.
If you say $pirate_faction="Corvus", then ok, even if all Corvus characters are not pirates.
Feb 01, 2011 Pizzasgood link
Heh, I don't have any KOS yet either, though I am hated pretty badly by Serco at this point, mainly due to their CTC flying through Sedina-B8. I should spend some time in Deneb or Toaster-space to finish the deed.

If I could change my faction to Corvus, Ineubis, or just plain Grey, I would consider it. Though I do like my name being yellow for aesthetic reasons, and I do still think of myself as a UIT, even if I'm an outlaw. I may not live there anymore, and I may steal from and murder their citizens outside (and occasionally inside) their borders, but I was still born and raised there, and certainly bear no ill-will toward them.

I disagree with the idea that pirates should be easily recognizable (unless they choose to be). It's not the IFF that's broken (well, it is in other ways), it's the inability to sail under a false flag that is broken. In real life you don't necessarily know that somebody is a pirate until they pirate you, and even then you may not know who they are to report them. I see no reason why we shouldn't be able to at least hide our identities in-game, if not use forged and stolen IDs. Unless you want to argue that all ships are fitted with an Itani monk who is skilled at long-distance mind reading.

Anyway, that's way off topic. My point is that an inability to automatically say, "That's a pirate!" is not a deficiency, it's a realism. The fact that you the player realize I am a pirate is the deficiency.
Feb 01, 2011 astib link
You got my point completely, Pizzasgood, thank you.
Feb 01, 2011 Alloh link
I guess you have been watching too much old pirate movies... Spaceships are not Sailboats. Technology evolves

Post-WWII warfare started including advanced IFF systems. Exactly as airplanes transponders. But military ones uses encrypted challenge-response, similar to SSL, as of today standarts it remains unbreakable under combat conditions. The best supercomputers would break the code, but not in real time...

What if he steals a trader's transponder? He will be able to use it until the previous owner, or a victim, complies. Then that code is blacklisted as compromissed. OR it becomes useless in next periodic password update.

Modern day pirates must be small and fast. And they are not homed in US, Iran or China, instead, they are based where WAS a country named Somalia, or discrete islands near China.
Even they want a home, and they know the consequences if they return to their native country. But none use their native country's flag!. Not even the classic pirates did, only Privateers used nation's flags.

It would be quite trivial to identify someone as pirate in a RL situation as VO is. Exactly as CtC attackers and those with a bounty on their heads, they are quickly tagged as pirate/KoS. Then It makes all sense that a Pirate would have another faction.

Since Inc stated so many times that Corvus is NOT a pirate faction itself, despite close relations with rats, the next logical step is to have another "nation", where pirates call home. It doesn't even require a name, they can be simply "the rat pack".

This would solve the major IFF problem in VO, that is why someone in my own nation would predate me inside nation space.

I was never against piracy. But since my 1st day in VO that I really hate pirates inside nations. They must be ban. Either to a new faction, that I think would be easier to implement without changing a line in backstory, or "No Nation".

Why not gray? Gray is the "Hive Nation" for game engine. And Devs. So pirates goes black or any color left unused.
Feb 01, 2011 Whytee link
Shankie:

You completely left out the option, Whytee, to focus on extending the Serco/Itani conflict to more than just Deneb. Also, I'm pretty sure that rainbow nation conflicts having a complete monopoly over anything going on in grey space would draw players away from the Itani/Serco conflict and not keep it a "hot" war. Besides, the minor faction conflicts are supposed to be covert and behind the scenes rivalries; and while I think there should be options similar to Itani/Serco faction level exclusivity for rivaling corporations, it would simply make no sense to focus on total faction changes for those factions when instead we can be promoting more needed roleplay rivalry and gameplay for Red vs. Blue.

See, I can make it ALL italics...
Yes, I left that option out. Until the war spreads to more than Deneb (and the odd fleet in front of a wormhole that does practibly nothing), the Itani/Serco conflict is at best background. Semi-irrelevant and boring. You do not have to agree, that is how I see it.
You don't have to make full faction changes, just start with fixing the borken thing. And if ppl wanna be Axia instead of (insert nation), more power to them. I am trying to enable stuff, not limit it.

To put this in terms of an Occam's Razor approach, Itani vs. Serco is the basic conflict in this game, the one that a huge majority of the backstory is centered around, and with simplistic, persistent, and fun gameplay it should always provide roleplay and combat where a dynamic prototype may or may not. To think that we can start with fixing a complex system and then focus on the game's basic conflict, without doing it the other way around, is simply naive.

Yes. The backstory that has been unchanged for the last... forever! Which creates a static universe, a static story of stagnation and repetition. The opportunities for RP are very limited unless you want to play a nationalist (any shade thereoff) or disregard the conflict all together. Let me once again state how I see that particular situation: boring and limiting. Again, why not enable more options that, lets face it, really doesn't matter on anything BUT the estethics and eventual possible RP? I am not trying to advocate more Itani/Serco conflict, I simply doesn't care about them.

Oh, and an unaligned tag is a simple gameplay fix, not a roleplay dimension... as a UIT player with Tri-KoS is likely not to be too friendly with a regular UIT newbie. Unless you think otherwise...?

What gameplay? Where I agree that we should have unaligned tags, as well as Axia, Corvus, etc., I do not see it in any way reflecting upon the tri-KOS thingy. How can the tag be anything but RP, or at least RP enabling? See, if a person is tre-KOS (Itani, Serco, UIT), I'd expect him to shoot first and scoop my cargo later. As would most sane individuals as well. What I do NOT see is the coupling that the tri-KOS status should be awarded with a new and "fancy" unaligned/grey tag. Fuck that. The unaligned/grey should be up for grabs as every other tag, maybe as part of a mission or the like. No free candy for the tri-KOS.

Now, I'd like to hear what the Almighty has to say about all this. 'Caus unless they are listening, we are all barking up the wrong tree...... woof woof:)
Feb 01, 2011 tarenty link
I don't think you've ever had a tri-KOS character Whytee. There is no candy at all for them, free or otherwise, especially those with no or little minor faction standing.

Alloh I think is right on track, though instead of another nation or faction, simply unaligned. I don't see why unaligned even needs a mission, just renounce ties with your home nation and take a standing hit. Anyone might do this.
Feb 01, 2011 Pizzasgood link
This post is off topic, just explaining to Alloh why he's wrong about false flags in the future.

Actually Alloh, despite my use of a somewhat archaic term, I'm well aware of the advances in authentication provided by crypto. I just didn't want to get into a bunch of details that were so far off topic (I originally wrote a lot more than I posted and then deleted most of it for that reason).

I realize that in VO's era, ships would have to be registered, and would probably carry transponders with a code that would allow any other ship to look them up in the database to see make, model, and basic faction information. Crypto would be used to prevent blatant lying. This would allow people to have basic IFF.

However, even if the system is secure enough to prevent people from forging their identification code, that does nothing to address the issue of whether the actual identity is real to begin with. If I can somehow gain access to the database itself, I can insert fabricated records for "Johnathan Doe". Then I can use perfectly legitimate identification codes to tell people that I am he. They would look me up, and it would check out.

The trick of course is inserting those records. But that is where trickery, bribery, blackmail, inside men, cracking skills, design oversights, lax security policies, weak links, and general human errors come into play. Doing it all yourself could be a big hassle, but that's what crime syndicates like Corvus are for. You pay them, and they put their specialists to work.

And as for stealing a person's ID, yeah, it would be temporary at best (you may not even be able to use it if it requires a passcode that you didn't manage to obtain). However, temporary is all you need - it will be ruined anyway as soon as you commit a crime using it. If you want a long term identity, you need to create one.

And consider political and social issues as well. In the UIT we are very decentralized. We really dislike the idea of a central authority and value independence highly. With a fragmented factionized society, each faction will have their own systems with their own security policies and their own standards of quality. They will have different willingness to share information with the other factions, and different willingnesses to believe information coming from other factions. These are all factors that make it easier to fabricate identities. They could make it much harder if they all standardized and cracked down, but that's going against the grain of our society. UIT citizens don't want to be tracked like cattle in the first place, and they certainly don't want other factions telling them to do so.

The Itani and Serco may be entirely different lumps of wax. Sucks to be them. :) More seriously: I don't know about the Itani, but I imagine the Serco would be more careful about tracking people. So perhaps a fake Serco identity would be harder to obtain (and therefor more valuable as people will be less likely to suspect it), whereas a UIT identity could be considered somewhat lower quality.

.

Those are a lot of details, and it would be neat if VO followed an accurate procedure for creating a false identity. However, since it's a game, I don't expect it to get into all those details. "Flying under a false flag", while overly simplistic, sounds a lot cooler, and would still be more accurate than our physics model.

/me mumbles about speed limits and begins singing this song.
Feb 02, 2011 pirren link
Well, I don't say changing faction to Corvus should be a "must". If some of you, pilots, like to be red/yellow/blue -- that's up to you, no one forces you to leave safe tag where you wanna stay, just give an option for other pilots to join the faction they want.

yarr
Feb 02, 2011 Whytee link
I don't think you've ever had a tri-KOS character Whytee. There is no candy at all for them, free or otherwise, especially those with no or little minor faction standing.

okay. let us assume that I have had/has that and move on anyway:)

It all depends on what you wanna play. So you can't have the nation specific ships, big deal. You learn to fly corvult, biocom vult, tung aggressor, orion revision c, the list goes on. Yes, that means you have to have one standing that is good (600+ or so I believe is the limit) with a minor faction but won't pirates have at least that with Corvus almost to a fault?

Being the BADDEST kid on the block, the tri-KOS alfa-male, the deathdealing MoFo surely is candy in itself. I know it limits you to grey and so you can't work nation missions etc, but wasn't that why you chose tri-KOS to start with?

Again, I would LOVE to have grey/unaligned/rainbow/minor faction tags. I just do not see that we should reward the tri-KOS players in particular. Let everyone have their chance at whatever faction they please.

Woof woof:)
Feb 02, 2011 Alloh link
Trying to integrate ideas:

-Some factions would HIRE people (Orion, Biocom, etc). You must have good standing and take a mission, and you become ZZZ. This is a temporary measure, and once you decline the job OR is kicked for bad behaviour, you resume your home nation. Increases pay for convoy escorts.

-Other factions (RatPack*, Corvus) require native KoS for joining. Maybe 3KoS, but native KoS seems enough.

-Some factions would have special requirements, as Axia//Valent requiring hated or worst with its enemy, or Tung/Orion requires mining 10.

-Many factions would welcome immigrants. One must have good standing, take a mission, sing the anthem and then joins a minor facion, In this case it drops to "dislike" with home nation and neutral with all other factions (never raise if it was negative).

-Serco and Itani does not accept immigrants. Probably UIT accepts, while they all hire people.

*Ratpack "nation" does not have to be a 'full nation', with territory and stations, but a faction in-game, with its own color. Good names would be "no IFF", "unaligned", "unregistered" or even "unknown". I.e., it does not prove someone IS a pirate, but avoids that "my teammate shot me" feeling.

* edits
Feb 02, 2011 astib link
Alloh, that sounds better. +1
Feb 02, 2011 pirren link
Serco and Itani does not accept immigrants.

holla don't try to implement your RL immigrant status into 'verse
Feb 02, 2011 ryan reign link
"-Many factions would welcome immigrants. One must have good standing, take a mission, sing the anthem and then joins a minor facion, In this case it drops to "dislike" with home nation..."

+1

" and neutral with all other factions (never raise)."

-100

"-Serco and Itani does not accept immigrants."

Military nations have always known the value of immigrants. The French Foreign Legion, the Ancient Greeks, The Persain Empire, Al Queada, The British... there is a long list of nations that has used immigrant/foreign soldiers. So it makes sense that a military government like the Serco would embrace foreign fighters if they proved themselves.

The Itani makes sense to a degree as they seem to have an elitist nature and non-military based government. On the other hand, as a society of intellectuals and artists... one can make an argument for them accepting immigrants (but probably in a condescending fashion, I base this on my years of experience with poets, writers, actors and other various artists.).

"Probably UIT also don't, while they could hire people."

-10000000000. From an RP perspective, the UIT seems to be based on the USA which (despite the current political rhetoric) knows the value of immigrants which helped the US grow.

"The hell's the matter with you? Stupid! We're all very different people. We're not Watusi. We're not Spartans. We're Americans, with a capital 'A', huh? You know what that means? Do ya? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts! Here's proof: his nose is cold! But there's no animal that's more faithful, that's more loyal, more loveable than the mutt. Who saw "Old Yeller?" Who cried when Old Yeller got shot at the end? I cried my eyes out. So we're all dogfaces, we're all very, very different, but there is one thing that we all have in common: we were all stupid enough to enlist in the Army. We're mutants. There's something wrong with us, something very, very wrong with us. Something seriously wrong with us - we're soldiers. But we're American soldiers! We've been kicking ass for 200 years! We're 10 and 1! Now we don't have to worry about whether or not we practiced. We don't have to worry about whether Captain Stillman wants to have us hung. All we have to do is to be the great American fighting soldier that is inside each one of us. Now do what I do, and say what I say. And make me proud."
Feb 03, 2011 pirren link
Well, let us have an option.
Mar 27, 2011 ryan reign link
+100000000000000000000000
Nov 16, 2011 pirren link
Bump
Nov 16, 2011 abortretryfail link
FYI: you can already play as a "Serco Corsair" - That's what CtC is. Corsairs have the blessing of their country's government and a letter of marque.
Nov 16, 2011 Dr. Lecter link
I would LOVE to have grey/unaligned/rainbow/minor faction tags. I just do not see that we should reward the tri-KOS players in particular. Let everyone have their chance at whatever faction they please

Sure thing, carebear. So we'll do this: Grey tag/unaligned status will require a mission string completion

And, because having quad POS traders is fucking retarded, Grey tag/unaligned status also will be mutually exclusive with having Serco, Itani, or UIT standing >-999. See how easy and sensible that was?
Nov 17, 2011 pirren link
So we'll do this: Grey tag/unaligned status will require a mission string completion

+1 to PvP mission, but still traders will cheat and just kill each other in buses.
Nov 19, 2011 PaKettle link
As I have suggested elsewhere the hive needs to be under its own faction and the unaligned faction should be given to those who wish it such as pirates and ex-pats.

Any major change of faction should result in a moderate to sever hit in all other factons. Faction level should never go up due to a faction change.

IFF in the modern world is actually easy to fake with the right money ,intel and skills. In reality spoofing an identity is very common and a lack of reliable long range communication would make checking an id almost impossible. I doubt many Pirates would be bothered about opening his IFF transmitter and changing out a chip or two either......