Maybe boosting SHOULDN'T be able to avoid rockets/missiles. Plus you have larger ships that A) Won't be able to maneuver very well and B) Might not have boost at all. Take that into consideration and make ECM cap-ship only.

"But even then it already takes like twenty avalons to bring one down... and that's for a stationary target!"

I read a statement like that and my thought is 'only twenty'?

"I would rather not see missiles where it's not possible to outrun 'em while boosting."

Agreed.

With regards to your point #3, I do agree that something like the X-Wing model of superfast and agile homers and a simple button you can peck to avoid them makes for boring gameplay. But I don't see your particular suggestions as necessarily practical, and I don't see how that takes more or less skill and awareness than the proper use of something like ECM.

"If the devs are in fact planning ECMs, I'd like to request that they be L-port only."

I never intended to suggest that most countermeasures should occupy weapons ports. Rather, countermeasures should occupy some sort of 'equipment port' for non-weapons. The larger the ship the more of these ports they should have. Centurians, Valks, Vultures, and Warthogs might have three, while Wraiths and Hornets might have four, and big ships like Centaurs, Proms, and Ragnaroks might have five. This would greatly increase the configurability of ships, as well as give more reason for flying a big ship. You could put ECM on a Warthog or Centurian, but personally I think that would be a sub-optimal build. In a light fighter, I think you'd be better off relying on your agility to dodge rocket type weapons, as the ECM would cause you to 'catch' alot more rockets than you otherwise would. If you must use a counter-measure in the light fighter, the counter-measure dispencer is probably better, but really counter-measures are basically designed with big unmanueverable ships in mind because they otherwise would basically automatically be hit by every incoming rocket, homing weapon, etc. fired at them.

Okay, so the only defensive tools available at the moment are mines. The scanner can be used defensively, but only forwards. It'd be neat to see some kind of weapons/addons that could perhaps hide a ship on radar for a short time, or make it untargetable for a limited duration. Presently, the only weapons existing are offensive. If a person in a slower ship is running from someone in a much faster ship, it's only a question of how far ahead they are. Something to at least give a slight chance would be nice. And since the target would still be visible, it would be as simple as manually aiming at them until the effect wore off. And maybe something like chaff could be used to make a missile/rocket prematurely detonate or lose lock. And these could have very low ammo counts so that someone couldn't just use them over and over again. If you have any suggestions on how this could be abused or made more realistic, by all means post them. I'm up for some civil debate and discussion. As I see it, this would be useful to all sides in different circumstances, and would add a new level to tactics. And please, let's try to keep this polite; things have been much too edgy around here lately. Thanks :-)

-Aurelius

(I dug up this thread after Whistler pointed me to it. It's a discussion that I think could be beneficial. I'd be interested to see if anyone has suggestions, since this thread last saw action about this time in 2003.)

We can assume that given an infinite period of time, anything that can happen will. In terms of game development, 6 years can be assumed to be infinite. Therefore we can reasonably draw the conclusion that ECM can not or at least will not happen in Vendetta Online.

I think ECM systems would add a degree of depth to VO that it is currently lacking. However, there are several problems with implementing them.

Pursuing a running craft is already nearly impossible. Anything smaller than a Behemoth XC can get away from any other ship given a 1 km head start. Any introduced ECM should certainly not exacerbate this problem, which precludes just about anything which is primarily defensive.

Vendetta is a skill-based game, and so there should not be any point-and-click counters to skill-based mechanics. This precludes anything which would make rockets detonate prematurely (though breaking the lock on guided missiles would be fine)

A system that breaks a target lock would be pretty annoying, and not much else.

One type of ECM that may have a legitimate role in VO is a jump blocker. Such a device could prevent any ship within 1 km or so from warping out of the sector or activating a wormhole, at the cost of a few energy per second. This still wouldn't be incredibly useful, though, as the running craft could simply keep infiniboosting for a few additional seconds while the pursuing craft drains its battery on the jump blocker.

Your logic is faulty. Just because it has not happened hitherto does not mean it can't ever happen. By the same logic, we would never ever be able to fly capital ships.

Breaking the lock-on of missiles is... pointless for a chase, and you know that, ladron. If you don't, I overestimated your aquaintance with the game. I whole-heartedly agree with you on that it should not be able to avoid skilled opponents by clicking a button. Instead, why not make it skill-based, too? It would take more intricate development, I'm sure, and require some inexplicable gameplay to be added, but why not make it (skill-based) mini-games?

Also, pirates (and other players with the obejctive of chasing ships) might receive similar gadgets to allow them to perhaps slow down their target, equally based on skill, of course. And they should not be available for trade ships...

Generally, something requiring a lock-on would heavily favor the fleeing traders if they had it, thus it should be exclusive for the hunters. Energy-leeching rockets spring to mind, ripping off the Wing Commander series.

Traders would perhaps need something like a puzzle game that requires actual skill to complete, with obvious pressure regarding time. Or simply allow rocket-firing turrets with concussion-only rockets, but I'm unsure as to its efficiency.

By the same logic, we would never ever be able to fly capital ships.

Let's get real: we're all going to die of old age before anyone is flying capital ships in VO.

Optimism improves one's quality of life >_>

I agree ladron and toshiro; I'm not only talking about countermeasures that could assist fleeing ships, but pursuing ones as well.

However, I don't think the mini games would be the best bet; I think for anything without an ammunition count, a medium-to-high battery drain/activation cost would help to ensure that it couldn't be used over and over ad infinitum. For the ones with ammo, the ammo count could inversely reflect how strong/useful they are, again to prevent someone from just spamming the ECM.

As for the energy-drain rockets, I think that sounds like a great idea; solves the problem of someone with infiniboost just running until they're either far enough away or the pursuer loses interest. I think they would need to have a significant delay between shots, again to prevent spamming.

why not make it (skill-based) mini-games?

You're kidding right?

If not, you should probably check out puzzle pirates

...you should probably check out puzzle pirates

Fuck me that looks amazing! Finally a game that "gets" us pirate-types.

ladron:

I have heard of (though not played) Puzzle Pirates, and that is not what I propose. To clarify, I propose a CM system that requires the player(s) to prove a level of skill, part twitch, part combinatory logic, or whatever (many other things come to mind, like prioritization, micro-management, prediction), to actually use the technology, and levels of achievement are linked to levels of effect. That is not to say that the player should enter a game that totally breaks immersion and has him play tetris, instead, it might for instance be incorporated in the normal turret HUD (which would need unique elements compared to normal ship HUDs), in the form of energy level bars, a targetting reticule that sways around and a lock-on indicator which shows the efficiency of the ECM you are going to employ, based on how well you're doing (e.g. balancing the energy levels while keeping the reticule on the pursuing ship) and the base efficiency of the weapon.

I currently haven't been able to think of many variants for this, perhaps this means that there aren't that many, and that the idea is not as good as I thought it to be initially. Still, I'd appreciate constructive input.

On a sidenote, though not unrelated: I perceive and acknowledge the fact that this would mean increased dev time required, and that it would add something that was not actually needed to the game. However, that is not necessarily a bad thing. Mining was added to the game, and it was not actually *necessary*. Neither was racing. They proved to be fun additions (for some more than for others) to the game, and I wouldn't just throw an idea out the window out of wilful ignorance.

We can't have tetris breaks? Aww... :-p

Anyways, while I think that this idea has merit, I don't know how well it would work in practical application. As you'd said, this would require increased dev time to develop and test this interface. While I still don't want to rule out this solution, I think that our best bet of getting something like this (at present) is devices that would both serve their purpose and require minimal dev work.

Let's get real: we're all going to die of old age before anyone is flying capital ships in VO.

Lecter, it was only a couple of months ago when you claimed we would never see asteroid occlusion. Maybe you and Ladron should stop grousing about what we're "never going to see", and focus on what we want to see.

inc, while I don't doubt my hyperbole is exactly that, it's one of the least baseless critiques about VO.

But since you mention it, how about making the rapidly implemented occlusion meaningful in some small way by having occluded players "leave" the sector, both for plug-ins and for sector list.

Hey, if you've got so many complaints about the game, how about taking a break and seeing if the results in one year's time please you? That way we could give constructive feedback and have useful discussions on how things can be improved; and not just things that benefit an individual or group, but the player base as a whole.

I hate to have to resort to late 60's rock philosophers, but...

"You can't always get what you want; But if you try sometime you find you get what you need."

And please; phrasing suggestions as attacks directly towards devs doesn't do anyone any good.

Okay, now it's your turn to attempt to rip my post to pieces. But while you do that, I'll make an effort to do something constructive.

I've been watching cap ships fly around VO for 5 years now. Others have done so for years longer. That's really all I need to say to you, skel.

Congrats. Cap ships present all kinds of logistical issues. Addressing them as well as meshing them with existing elements can't be easy. Other things have taken priority; things break, other smaller more readily producible things get bumped to the front, because everyone demands immediate content. There are four people that make this game. Four. This isn't CCP. When you have the skills required to do their work, and can do it better and faster, then we'll talk. Until that time, either quit or stop whining. Up to you.

inc, while I don't doubt my hyperbole is exactly that, it's one of the least baseless critiques about VO.

Hyperbole it may be (although it can be hard to tell), it is entirely unhelpful to the creative and forward-looking intent of the suggestions forum. It's also annoying to the developers, who spend long hours trying to implement the stuff you claim will never happen.

But regardless of its periodic veracity over the last many years, it serves no constructive purpose whatsoever. And reasonably constructive discussion is the whole point of Suggestions.

But since you mention it, how about making the rapidly implemented occlusion meaningful in some small way by having occluded players "leave" the sector, both for plug-ins and for sector list.

The occlusion is meaningful, as implemented. We will be making it more meaningful at a future point, hopefully after Ray finishes the PayPal system.

ANYway.. back to countermeasures discussion..

Until that time, either quit or stop whining. Up to you.

My, my, my . . . are those really my only two choices, skel? Guess they must be.

Inc, as a practical manner, occlusion is meaningful in only two really silly ways right now: first, it helps miners hide without running way the Hell out into the middle of nowhere (as an aside, this doesn't work in the one instance it would be really helpful, which is with bots); second, in a large and intense furball in a dense roid field, it could be relevant to combat... but how often do we have that many people on?

I've said it many times, and you'll do something about it when you've got time: there is nothing more game-breaking than sector list.

In any event, it sounds like y'all aren't having the best time right now, so I've probably taken this about two posts further than is right. 'night.

I see some approaches on that, will try to compare:

Shields:
*> Should provide total protection against ONE type of weapon, and small or none against others. Name it Frequency tunning. Like, i can tune it to protect me against missiles, but then energy weapons pass it as glass and projectile weapons have 33% reduction.
*< Wise selection of weapons, when to shoot what. One addon could show what kind of shield is active.

Flares, chaffs, etc.
Sloooow missiles as now are unreal. Maybe if missile's speed respect physics and add its speed (acceleration) to ship's speed(1), then coutermeasures other than "+turbo" can be:
*> Defenses against all types of missiles requires being ejected and a hard turn at same time to work. But each defense is good against only one type of missiles.
*< Different types of missiles (dumb, heat, radar, aspect)-seeking missiles requiring lock. If enemy uses defenses, will have to break direction and lose speed, use it!
(Simpler option, one defense good against all, but with different results per missile type)

On both cases you have a gadget that can be overcome with skill, but are perfect against "basic" attack.

Auto-defenses:
If you imagine some auto-response defense, then it goes back to now, wait missile get close then dodge it, on proper direction for swarms... do a hard turn and turbo on. (maybe a tutorial on that?)

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(1) Missile has acceleration and is on vacuum. If launched from a stationary stand reaches X mps. When launched "forward" from a ship at Y mps, its final speed becomes X+Y mps. (at least until near 0.9c)