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I see we've been treated to a Christmas Carol-esque visit from the Ghost of D-Bag Nooblets Past.
Sure, whatever. Another well thinked-over & extremely elaborative argument.
Guild software thanks You for Your input, dear Dr. Lecter.
Guild software thanks You for Your input, dear Dr. Lecter.
It would be better for you to remain silent and be thought an idiot, than to [ab]use English and thereby remove all doubt.
There is still no need for dedicated jobs. There are no jobs thus far. I don't think VO needs job descriptions, because jobs are defined by people's actions playing the game.
Creating one job requires creating them all, and no, you cannot euqate 'light weapons', 'heavy weapons', 'combat', 'trade' and 'mining' with 'ship builder/engineer'.
It's like saying 'calculus' is the same category as 'health inspector'.
Disclaimer: Virtually all analogies, including this one, are flawed, and only serve to make a point.
Creating one job requires creating them all, and no, you cannot euqate 'light weapons', 'heavy weapons', 'combat', 'trade' and 'mining' with 'ship builder/engineer'.
It's like saying 'calculus' is the same category as 'health inspector'.
Disclaimer: Virtually all analogies, including this one, are flawed, and only serve to make a point.
@toshiro
[[[There is still no need for dedicated jobs. There are no jobs thus far. I don't think VO needs job descriptions, because jobs are defined by people's actions playing the game.]]]
How many times am i going to explain this.
Engineering is _NOT_ a job, just a skill.
I'm _NOT_ suggesting creating _ANY_ fixed-occupations of _ANY_ sort.
[[[Creating one job requires creating them all, and no, you cannot euqate 'light weapons', 'heavy weapons', 'combat', 'trade' and 'mining' with 'ship builder/engineer'.]]]
Again, misunderstanding - I'm _NOT_ creating ANY job.
And yes, engineering can be a _SKILL_ like any other (the same way as You can learn combat or mining, You can earn engineering - by practice).
[[[There is still no need for dedicated jobs. There are no jobs thus far. I don't think VO needs job descriptions, because jobs are defined by people's actions playing the game.]]]
How many times am i going to explain this.
Engineering is _NOT_ a job, just a skill.
I'm _NOT_ suggesting creating _ANY_ fixed-occupations of _ANY_ sort.
[[[Creating one job requires creating them all, and no, you cannot euqate 'light weapons', 'heavy weapons', 'combat', 'trade' and 'mining' with 'ship builder/engineer'.]]]
Again, misunderstanding - I'm _NOT_ creating ANY job.
And yes, engineering can be a _SKILL_ like any other (the same way as You can learn combat or mining, You can earn engineering - by practice).
Correction: Engineering is an amalgamation of various skill sets, and thus a profession, or occupation (if not calling). You say you do not want to create 'fixed occupations'. In another post of yours you state the exact opposite. Yes, we have miners, pirates, traders, but with the exception of a few tools of the trade, they do not really have any requirements that collide with the normal leveling-up of characters (of course, if you want certain special tools, you need to invest more time, but not usually grinding levels). And I think that is good - your actions define who you are, not how much time you spend to grind.
What I think you're missing is the fact that a system such as you propose is needlessly complicated and does effectively nothing.
I'll tell you why:
You want people to grind for schematics, that is ok (because paying for them is pointless), which is immediately obliterated by your addition that schematics can be sold and copied (so basically anyone with enough cash can craft).
You want to limit item manufacturing by effectively requiring levels/licenses (engineering xp). Perhaps the developers have the same thing in mind - I do not know. So far, you do not need special levels to craft items, though, and I like that.
You say that ships will cost less if manufactured. Ship cost is hardly the defining feature of a ship, TCO is. If you fight, you have to repair - often netting you costs much higher than the initial capital requirement.
This is why I do not think that your suggestion merits implementation. To all intents and purposes, despite your utterances to the contrary, you do want to create a 'fixed occupation'.
What I think you're missing is the fact that a system such as you propose is needlessly complicated and does effectively nothing.
I'll tell you why:
You want people to grind for schematics, that is ok (because paying for them is pointless), which is immediately obliterated by your addition that schematics can be sold and copied (so basically anyone with enough cash can craft).
You want to limit item manufacturing by effectively requiring levels/licenses (engineering xp). Perhaps the developers have the same thing in mind - I do not know. So far, you do not need special levels to craft items, though, and I like that.
You say that ships will cost less if manufactured. Ship cost is hardly the defining feature of a ship, TCO is. If you fight, you have to repair - often netting you costs much higher than the initial capital requirement.
This is why I do not think that your suggestion merits implementation. To all intents and purposes, despite your utterances to the contrary, you do want to create a 'fixed occupation'.
@toshiro
[[[This is why I do not think that your suggestion merits implementation. To all intents and purposes, despite your utterances to the contrary, you do want to create a 'fixed occupation'.]]]
No, i don't want to create anything fixed, i like it the way it is.
Perhaps it's just my bad english that created this misunderstanding. Maybe i used wrong words to explain my thoughts. If so, I am sorry.
So to say it once again - _NO MATTER WHAT I SAID EARLIER I DO NOT WANT ANY FIXED OCCUPATONS_.
[[[This is why I do not think that your suggestion merits implementation. To all intents and purposes, despite your utterances to the contrary, you do want to create a 'fixed occupation'.]]]
No, i don't want to create anything fixed, i like it the way it is.
Perhaps it's just my bad english that created this misunderstanding. Maybe i used wrong words to explain my thoughts. If so, I am sorry.
So to say it once again - _NO MATTER WHAT I SAID EARLIER I DO NOT WANT ANY FIXED OCCUPATONS_.
@toshiro
[[[Engineering is an amalgamation of various skill sets]]]
Actually it combines just 3 skills - the construction, disassembling of ships and mounting equipment on the ship Yourself. It can be handled by one kind of skill experience.
So every time You assemble, disassemble, or attach something to a ship You get "Engineering" experience for that, the same way You would get "trade" experience for selling/buying stuff & "combat" experience for fighting.
[[[Engineering is an amalgamation of various skill sets]]]
Actually it combines just 3 skills - the construction, disassembling of ships and mounting equipment on the ship Yourself. It can be handled by one kind of skill experience.
So every time You assemble, disassemble, or attach something to a ship You get "Engineering" experience for that, the same way You would get "trade" experience for selling/buying stuff & "combat" experience for fighting.
I was referring to engineering in real life.
I still don't think it is necessary to create an Engineering skill axis. I'm not too big a fan of achievements and such, and thus a more intangible way of gauging skill is right up my alley.
I still don't think it is necessary to create an Engineering skill axis. I'm not too big a fan of achievements and such, and thus a more intangible way of gauging skill is right up my alley.
@toshiro
[[[I'm not too big a fan of achievements and such, and thus a more intangible way of gauging skill is right up my alley.]]]
Grindable skill system is base for absolutely every MMO game out there including VO, so actually this is IMHO the only way to implement such feature.
Of course Vendetta is not so grindable as most MMO's (as PvP relies mostly on real life keyboard/mouse/joystick skill instead of in-game skills), but still it is important to give people the sense of improvement of their abilities and provide rewards for doing particular kind of tasks.
[[[I'm not too big a fan of achievements and such, and thus a more intangible way of gauging skill is right up my alley.]]]
Grindable skill system is base for absolutely every MMO game out there including VO, so actually this is IMHO the only way to implement such feature.
Of course Vendetta is not so grindable as most MMO's (as PvP relies mostly on real life keyboard/mouse/joystick skill instead of in-game skills), but still it is important to give people the sense of improvement of their abilities and provide rewards for doing particular kind of tasks.
So far, I haven't seen a single good arguement against Paladin's idea.
@toshiro
Mining has its own skill.
Trading has its own skill.
Both of those are an amalgamation of different skillsets. Think of all those different types of trading missions you can take.
Thus your arguement against an engineering skill is flawed.
Also, for mining, you need to
1. scan
2. mine
3. haul
Thats 3 skillsets. Moths can mine and haul, Rags can mine really well but not haul so well, Miner Moths can do all 3, etc.
@toshiro
Mining has its own skill.
Trading has its own skill.
Both of those are an amalgamation of different skillsets. Think of all those different types of trading missions you can take.
Thus your arguement against an engineering skill is flawed.
Also, for mining, you need to
1. scan
2. mine
3. haul
Thats 3 skillsets. Moths can mine and haul, Rags can mine really well but not haul so well, Miner Moths can do all 3, etc.
@PaladinOfLancelot:
You say that grind is necessary for absolutely all MMO games. I disagree. It is something that the overwhelming majority opts for, to a certain degree. It is not necessary at all. After a certain level, it is immaterial in VO how high your skill levels are, you won't kill more players/mine more stuff/trade better routes just because you spent game time weeks grinding. It takes brains and reflexes, and those are not something that get better over time.
@Crusader8389:
The best argument against it is that it's simply not necessary. Mission-based crafting works, doesn't it? Why break that?
As for the terminology issue: 'Engineering' is a term so heterogeneous in nature that simply naming a skill axis 'Engineering' is not really a good choice. Do you know what 'Engineering' means? It means using not 3, not 5, but dozens of different skills to create superior products (or not).
Collecting blueprints and churning out cookie cutter stuff is NOT 'Engineering'. Just call it 'crafting'. You can RP an engineer if you think you can do it.
You say that grind is necessary for absolutely all MMO games. I disagree. It is something that the overwhelming majority opts for, to a certain degree. It is not necessary at all. After a certain level, it is immaterial in VO how high your skill levels are, you won't kill more players/mine more stuff/trade better routes just because you spent game time weeks grinding. It takes brains and reflexes, and those are not something that get better over time.
@Crusader8389:
The best argument against it is that it's simply not necessary. Mission-based crafting works, doesn't it? Why break that?
As for the terminology issue: 'Engineering' is a term so heterogeneous in nature that simply naming a skill axis 'Engineering' is not really a good choice. Do you know what 'Engineering' means? It means using not 3, not 5, but dozens of different skills to create superior products (or not).
Collecting blueprints and churning out cookie cutter stuff is NOT 'Engineering'. Just call it 'crafting'. You can RP an engineer if you think you can do it.
@toshiro
[[[You say that grind is necessary for absolutely all MMO games. I disagree. It is something that the overwhelming majority opts for, to a certain degree. It is not necessary at all.]]]
You're absolutely, completely wrong - for two reasons.
1. Show me one MMO game that does not require ANY grinding.
2. Even Vendetta requires SOME grinding. Of course it's not that much as the other MMO's out there, but still.
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[[[After a certain level, it is immaterial in VO how high your skill levels are, you won't kill more players/mine more stuff/trade better routes just because you spent game time weeks grinding.]]]
... exactly as in the other MMO games ? The only difference is the amount of grinding You need. At that's what i like VO for - it requires LESS grinding, and actual brain & keyboard/joy skills matter MORE.
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[[[It takes brains and reflexes, and those are not something that get better over time.]]]
It still won't help You if You only got weapons which fire at 140m/s. Or If You have only a bus as Your ship. You need SOME grinding everywhere in every MMO out there, including Vendetta. More or less, but it is still grinding.
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[[[The best argument against it is that it's simply not necessary.]]]
Sorry Sir, but that is not a valid argument. You're just not thinking out of the box. You only see Vendetta for what it is now. I see Vendetta for what it could be.
A little imagination is all that it takes.
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[[[Mission-based crafting works, doesn't it? Why break that?]]]
Who said _anything_ about breaking mission-crafting ? Nobody is breaking _anything_. I'm just suggesting adding a _new_ feature _next to_ the other existing ones.
So, If You got no engineering XP, You will still be able to craft using missions. But this suggestion is opening _new_ possibilities without touching the old functionality.
[[[You say that grind is necessary for absolutely all MMO games. I disagree. It is something that the overwhelming majority opts for, to a certain degree. It is not necessary at all.]]]
You're absolutely, completely wrong - for two reasons.
1. Show me one MMO game that does not require ANY grinding.
2. Even Vendetta requires SOME grinding. Of course it's not that much as the other MMO's out there, but still.
.
.
[[[After a certain level, it is immaterial in VO how high your skill levels are, you won't kill more players/mine more stuff/trade better routes just because you spent game time weeks grinding.]]]
... exactly as in the other MMO games ? The only difference is the amount of grinding You need. At that's what i like VO for - it requires LESS grinding, and actual brain & keyboard/joy skills matter MORE.
.
.
[[[It takes brains and reflexes, and those are not something that get better over time.]]]
It still won't help You if You only got weapons which fire at 140m/s. Or If You have only a bus as Your ship. You need SOME grinding everywhere in every MMO out there, including Vendetta. More or less, but it is still grinding.
.
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[[[The best argument against it is that it's simply not necessary.]]]
Sorry Sir, but that is not a valid argument. You're just not thinking out of the box. You only see Vendetta for what it is now. I see Vendetta for what it could be.
A little imagination is all that it takes.
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[[[Mission-based crafting works, doesn't it? Why break that?]]]
Who said _anything_ about breaking mission-crafting ? Nobody is breaking _anything_. I'm just suggesting adding a _new_ feature _next to_ the other existing ones.
So, If You got no engineering XP, You will still be able to craft using missions. But this suggestion is opening _new_ possibilities without touching the old functionality.
"it's simply not necessary." Is as valid an argument as any.
(snip)1. Show me one MMO game that does not require ANY grinding.(snip)
Just because there is no MMOG that does not require grinding doesn't mean it's a necessity (and there are quite a few MMOGs that try to avoid grinding like the plague - success is mixed, of course). So it's possibly you who's absolutely completely wrong, I think...
At that's what i like VO for - it requires LESS grinding, and actual brain & keyboard/joy skills matter MORE. (sic)
And you like games with little bar pushing - but you want to add more of it to VO? Errrrrr... helloo inconsistency!
It still won't help You if You only got weapons which fire at 140m/s. Or If You have only a bus as Your ship.
And you can get pretty good stuff (albeit for higher prices) without leveling at all, in VO. You just have to know how to. And that you can learn by asking. See? No grind required.
Sorry Sir, but that is not a valid argument. You're just not thinking out of the box. You only see Vendetta for what it is now. I see Vendetta for what it could be.
A little imagination is all that it takes.
Oh, I see what you did there. You propose a system which has been used in other games and call it 'thinking outside the box' and 'imagination'.
And disagreeing with a suggestion because I think it's unnecessary is, in fact, valid. Just like the fact that you are in love with your idea doesn't make it automatically the best idea there is.
So, If You got no engineering XP, You will still be able to craft using missions. But this suggestion is opening _new_ possibilities without touching the old functionality.
Untrue. By creating a "new and improved" crafting system, you effectively invalidate the "old and decrepit" crafting system. Quote form your original post: There are some very good weapons, eqipment, perhaps ship prototypes that only an player-engineer can build. It cannot be bought elsewhere in the galaxy. Soo... how good are these 'very good' items? Better than the one you can craft with missions? Then why do crafting by missions at all? About the same? Then why do it in the first place?
Just because there is no MMOG that does not require grinding doesn't mean it's a necessity (and there are quite a few MMOGs that try to avoid grinding like the plague - success is mixed, of course). So it's possibly you who's absolutely completely wrong, I think...
At that's what i like VO for - it requires LESS grinding, and actual brain & keyboard/joy skills matter MORE. (sic)
And you like games with little bar pushing - but you want to add more of it to VO? Errrrrr... helloo inconsistency!
It still won't help You if You only got weapons which fire at 140m/s. Or If You have only a bus as Your ship.
And you can get pretty good stuff (albeit for higher prices) without leveling at all, in VO. You just have to know how to. And that you can learn by asking. See? No grind required.
Sorry Sir, but that is not a valid argument. You're just not thinking out of the box. You only see Vendetta for what it is now. I see Vendetta for what it could be.
A little imagination is all that it takes.
Oh, I see what you did there. You propose a system which has been used in other games and call it 'thinking outside the box' and 'imagination'.
And disagreeing with a suggestion because I think it's unnecessary is, in fact, valid. Just like the fact that you are in love with your idea doesn't make it automatically the best idea there is.
So, If You got no engineering XP, You will still be able to craft using missions. But this suggestion is opening _new_ possibilities without touching the old functionality.
Untrue. By creating a "new and improved" crafting system, you effectively invalidate the "old and decrepit" crafting system. Quote form your original post: There are some very good weapons, eqipment, perhaps ship prototypes that only an player-engineer can build. It cannot be bought elsewhere in the galaxy. Soo... how good are these 'very good' items? Better than the one you can craft with missions? Then why do crafting by missions at all? About the same? Then why do it in the first place?
@ryan
[[["it's simply not necessary." Is as valid an argument as any.]]]
First, I disagree. It does not contain any reasonal/logical thinking. It's just like saying "i don't like it and that's enough".
It's an empty argument, so no it's not argument for me at all.
Second, if we want to bring some more players into the game, and keep existing ones from leaving, we need something _NEW_, not just cosmetic & evolutionary changes.
This game seriously needs "fresh blood". After You get to 8/8/8/8/8 or so, the only thing You can do not to get bored is
a) PVP
b) Become a pirate
However these occupations
1) Require other players interaction, and there aren't always players avaiable
2) Are very tiring. After few PVP fights a normal player may become too tired to continue.
And what if somebody is bored with trading commodities/mining/pvp ? Or if he doesn't want to PVP at all ?
Then there is completely _nothing_ to do here (perhaps that explains why there is so many trolls on forums - they're bored with the game).
So, I'm giving players new possibilities to kill boredom and raise social in-game status. Also, cooperation between players would also flourish using my suggestions.
[[["it's simply not necessary." Is as valid an argument as any.]]]
First, I disagree. It does not contain any reasonal/logical thinking. It's just like saying "i don't like it and that's enough".
It's an empty argument, so no it's not argument for me at all.
Second, if we want to bring some more players into the game, and keep existing ones from leaving, we need something _NEW_, not just cosmetic & evolutionary changes.
This game seriously needs "fresh blood". After You get to 8/8/8/8/8 or so, the only thing You can do not to get bored is
a) PVP
b) Become a pirate
However these occupations
1) Require other players interaction, and there aren't always players avaiable
2) Are very tiring. After few PVP fights a normal player may become too tired to continue.
And what if somebody is bored with trading commodities/mining/pvp ? Or if he doesn't want to PVP at all ?
Then there is completely _nothing_ to do here (perhaps that explains why there is so many trolls on forums - they're bored with the game).
So, I'm giving players new possibilities to kill boredom and raise social in-game status. Also, cooperation between players would also flourish using my suggestions.
epic fail.
VO is not EVE, so I don't think it's necessary to bind anything to skills.
This game seriously needs "fresh blood". After You get to 8/8/8/8/8 or so, the only thing You can do not to get bored is
fail again, with such low licenses you can't even afford SCP.
have you tried to conquer stations or you are still mining? :}
VO is not EVE, so I don't think it's necessary to bind anything to skills.
This game seriously needs "fresh blood". After You get to 8/8/8/8/8 or so, the only thing You can do not to get bored is
fail again, with such low licenses you can't even afford SCP.
have you tried to conquer stations or you are still mining? :}
I am disheartened by a seeming lack of perceptive ability on the part of the OP.
Polelickin'Lancemelots said:
After few PVP fights a normal player may become too tired to continue.
After few PVP fights a normal player may become too tired to continue.
In response to the fresh blood/nothing to do comment, I've been here 7.5 years and there is always different stuff to do
I have at some point:
1) been a crazy rogue semi rat
2) The Hog King
3) Hive killer
4) border fighting person
5) War voy destroyer
6) War voy defender
7) CtC king (not lately)
8) Convoy escort
9) Procurer
10) Manufacturer (only the firecrackers cause they dont have an absolutely ridiculous amount of things to collect)
11) station attacker
12) station defender
13) I have made some Difficult choices (mission)
14) Nation war'd
15) Raced the universe
16) shot people racing the universe
17) tube raced
18) killed 50 people in a bus
19) got the old school ec88 in that fancy mission tree
20) upped my standing with various factions to get their special equip (theres a couple weeks of stuff to do right there)
21) Joined a guild
22) became council on said guild
23) Had a hog gang (few years back)
24) Tease pie rats
25) party moth
26) Made about a dozen missions that are in game
28) Defended my asteroid field
29) defended my star system (pelatus)
30) Dueled
31) wrote a pointless plugin in Lua
32) Nationalist
I'm sure there is another dozen things I am forgetting as it has been a long mother fucking time spent in this game
after writing all that out I really don't see what newbs are complaining about when THEY think there is nothing to do, those of us who have been here since time started sure, we did it all already but come on new people, actually try the game before you start making crazy threads about things to do.
I didn't even list all the super intricate and boring mining things people like to do (cause I don't do it)
Or all the boring finding super trade route things other boring people like to do.
I have at some point:
1) been a crazy rogue semi rat
2) The Hog King
3) Hive killer
4) border fighting person
5) War voy destroyer
6) War voy defender
7) CtC king (not lately)
8) Convoy escort
9) Procurer
10) Manufacturer (only the firecrackers cause they dont have an absolutely ridiculous amount of things to collect)
11) station attacker
12) station defender
13) I have made some Difficult choices (mission)
14) Nation war'd
15) Raced the universe
16) shot people racing the universe
17) tube raced
18) killed 50 people in a bus
19) got the old school ec88 in that fancy mission tree
20) upped my standing with various factions to get their special equip (theres a couple weeks of stuff to do right there)
21) Joined a guild
22) became council on said guild
23) Had a hog gang (few years back)
24) Tease pie rats
25) party moth
26) Made about a dozen missions that are in game
28) Defended my asteroid field
29) defended my star system (pelatus)
30) Dueled
31) wrote a pointless plugin in Lua
32) Nationalist
I'm sure there is another dozen things I am forgetting as it has been a long mother fucking time spent in this game
after writing all that out I really don't see what newbs are complaining about when THEY think there is nothing to do, those of us who have been here since time started sure, we did it all already but come on new people, actually try the game before you start making crazy threads about things to do.
I didn't even list all the super intricate and boring mining things people like to do (cause I don't do it)
Or all the boring finding super trade route things other boring people like to do.