It would probably take a special effort, but I love the idea mentioned earlier about the widget(s) being contained in a certain area. You can't dock with them, you can't run far away with them, and probably if they aren't picked up within X minutes they reset to a new place in sector (to take care of roid-dropping). I can imagine it getting pretty frantic trying to get one person to scoop up and keep all the cargo when everyone knows exactly where you are.

Right now there's no way to know who owns the station without having a key. If you come across the station when it is deserted and not welcoming you and you decided to force your way in, you do not know if you are attacking an allied or an enemy station.

Perhaps turrets could tell you who owns the station if you msg them.

I see several problems with the widget idea.

1) A defender could grab a widget and turbo off indefinately into the distance (until the timer expires anyway)

Solution: Have widgets auto-jett if a player goes too far away from the station (2000m maybe?). It might also be interesting to have widgets always visible on radar regardless of distance away (for in storms). Also have them auto-jett on an attempt to leave the sector (but that shouldn't be possible with 2000m distance).

2a) Requiring a player to hold all 8 widgets to take the station also requires that they fly a ship with at least 8 cu of cargo space.

2b) I don't see why someone should be granted access to the station for capturing a single widget. The station is still owned by the opposing side, after all. The restrictions on what they can and can't do in the station also seems a bit complicated.

2c) Incorporating the mission aspect seems overly complicated

Solution: Players can return widgets to the station one at a time to secure credit for it's capture. Control of the station changes hands once all the widgets have been captured (not necessarily all by the same person).

When someone 'docks' in the station with a widget, if they don't have a key, the widget is secured and they instantly launch again with an automatic free repair (reload too? not sure about this one).

3) This still doesn't remove the incentive for keyed players to not attack their own turrets.

Solution: If a keyed player returns a widget to the station it will respawn the turret 5 minutes later. The turret shouldn't instantly respawn so that players aren't tempted to destroy their own turrets at low health. Having the respawn time too long makes the attackers have to wait too long for a chance to recapture it.

There is also nothing to prevent the defenders from picking up a widget and just keeping it in their ship. I don't see this as a problem since doing this allows for the attackers to figure out which defender(s) hold widgets and destroy them to steal it.

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I would set timers as follows:
*Widgets floating in space or in player ships expire after 12 minutes from the time the turret was destroyed. After which, the turret is instantly respawned.
*A widget floating in space that hasn't been picked up after 3 minutes expires and the turret is instantly respawned (to mitigate hiding in roids). Timer restarts again each time widget is jettisoned.
*A keyed player returning a widget to the station causes the turret to respawn 5 minutes after return or 12 minutes after turret was originally destroyed (whichever comes first)
*All 8 widgets must be captured (by non-keyed players) within 20 minutes of the first turret being destroyed, in which case the current station owners lose control of the station. Keyed players returning widgets have no effect (but attackers have to wait for it to respawn to attempt another capture)

Once all 8 widgets have been secured in the station by non-keyed players, all players are prevented from docking except for the person who returned the majority of the widgets. In the case of a tie, whichever of the tied players that docks first gains control. If no one docks after (10 minutes?) the turrets respawn and no one has control of the station. Of course, previously keyed players would be excluded from docking regardless

Overall, I like this widget idea because it promotes opposing players to attack each other more in order to secure the station (rather than scrambling to take out the turrets and making a mad dash for the docking port).

Special Condition: If a person secured the most widgets is riding as gunner, that ship can dock. Station control goes to the gunner if the pilot is not eligible majority of widgets captured.

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And Maalik, I'm not sure I understand what you are proposing with hailing turrets. I don't think that the names of ALL players who have a owner key could be transmitted back. Just the name of the person who originally took the station? Maybe also include the names of the first 2 or 3 people to be given owner keys as well? (In case the original owner is some lesser-known individual)

I didn't have anything too specific in mind but I believe that a complete list of people with ownership keys is a reasonable amount of information to be transmitted.

I like some of the ideas. Like the widgets always being visible on radar, and that they will auto eject if taken too far from station. I also like the 5 min delay to rebuild a turret.

I like that having a widget, even just one, can be used to board the station. This gives an attacker at least limited access to repairs and reloads, depending on their level of success at securing, and maintaining widgets. This would allow a slow but determined siege to slowly and incrementally overcome the station defenses. By forcing the widgets to make at least periodic appearances on the battle field, it allows the defenders opportunity to recover their defensive position.

Think of it like a football game, where the game is not decided by a single play, but by each team attempting to force position on a field.

I'd still rather have the widget blow your ship up than auto-jettison. Let's up the stakes a bit, need more 'splosions :D

I don't like allowing people to incrementally dock the widgets. It seems far too likely to generate situations where eight people return 1 widget, resulting in a situation a lot like what exists now (whoever docks first wins). Also, its not your station yet, so being allowed to dock at all seems suspect.

Being required to capture all 8 widgets and bring them into the station as a package creates a clear winner and removes the ninja aspect of things. It also forces teamwork to protect the widget ship, instead of having an individual gank people as they dock to get a winning number of widgets.

Also, once all 8 widgets are in play, the station should revert to neutral. This creates a significant incentive for defenders to defend their turrets (even repair them), and destroying a turret would very rarely be in their interest. Probably the only time it would be is if they already have control of all the other widgets, but in that case the attackers lost anyway.

The widget timer should be set to slightly less than the time a skilled player would take to solo all the turrets. This can be established empirically if necessary.

I don't like allowing people to incrementally dock the widgets. It seems far too likely to generate situations where eight people return 1 widget, resulting in a situation a lot like what exists now (whoever docks first wins). Also, its not your station yet, so being allowed to dock at all seems suspect.

In my proposed version only attackers get credit for returning the widgets. If a keyed person returns a widget, the turret gets respawned and the attackers get another chance to try to capture it. When all 8 widgets are captured the previously keyed players would not be able to dock. So basically the attackers are the ones trying to return widgets, and the defenders have to prevent them from capturing them all for 20 minutes.

The majority thing only determines which of the attackers is eligible to dock. If an attacking party of 8 returns 1 widget each, any of them could dock.

The only case where it would be a struggle for first to dock is when two opposing attacking parties are attacking the station simultaneously. The former station owners could still try to prevent the eligible people from docking, but would never themselves be eligible to dock.

Also, its not your station yet, so being allowed to dock at all seems suspect.

That is the point I was making too. In my proposed version a non-keyed player returning a widget isn't really docking. They hit the activate key while in the dock with a widget and instantly come out the launch port with a repaired ship and all widgets removed from their cargo.

In my suggestion:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/22626?page=3#281411
and my response to meridian's response:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/22626#281489

I am suggesting that each turret drop a widget. A single player would need to dock with all the widgets at once to conquer the station. If defenders return the widgets to the station, they are just reinforcing their defense. It sounds like this much meridian and Starfisher are in agreement with me.

I like ideas that keep widgets in the sector, within a certain range of the station, so that they can be fought over. Ideas like auto ejecting the widget or exploding the player if they get to far from the station sound good to me.

I do think that controlling a widget should give an attacker some small advantage, and that letting someone that has a widget in their cargo hold repair at the station sounds like a fair reward for controlling the widget. Think of it as hacking your way in. You destroyed a turret, stole the core (widget) and used it to bypass the station security to gain access and get repairs. It only works for as long as you have the widget in your cargo hold. If several attackers gain widgets, then the balance of power starts to shift to the attackers, because they can repair.

If the attackers are not on the same side, then you might end up with a situation where all of the turrets are destroyed, the defenders can still dock and repair, a few attackers that hold widgets can dock and repair, but no one can conquer the station until all of the widgets are consolidated. The attackers may have to turn on each other to force a consolidation of widgets, and risk the defenders recovering the widgets and using them to rebuild turrets.

A single player would need to dock with all the widgets at once to conquer the station. If defenders return the widgets to the station, they are just reinforcing their defense.

This is a pretty brutally stupid idea. Turrets require heavy, slow bombers. With your brilliant idea, all defenders need do is wait for turrets to be killed and then either beat the attackers to the widget in a fast ship (much like they used to pop their own turret and dock fast), or shoot down a bomber that grabs a widget. If VO had more of an in-game population, such that you could realistically have a bomber-fighter squad for the turrets with the fighter trying to grab the widget before the defending fighters could do so, it would be a more workable idea.

I talked to Ray today while he was fixing some bugs, and I told him that the turrets won't currently defend themselves when attacked by a key holder. This apparently is the desired behavior and will continue to when we have user keys. In other words, if a user attacks his own turrets, they will not defend themselves. I see this as a big problem. A user can just wait until no one is watching the station, which happens for hours every day, and kill all the turrets in about 5 minutes with a gov bus without any resistance. Then they can conquer the station and become an owner, instead of a user.

Once we have user keys, the turrets should defend themselves at least from regular users to prevent them from stealing the station from the owners without resistance.

Gotta go with strat on that one. Huge potential for mischief if there's no response to attacks.

Yep, what Strat said. A low-drain energy setup can kill a turret that isn't shooting back fairly quickly. At a minimum, the turrets should turn hostile after taking a few hits. I think killing one should maybe get a user key revoked.

An attack force should not be just bombers, but a combined force of bombers and fighter.

The advantage to the attackers here is that they could concentrate all of their effort on one turret at a time. This would not be lost on the defenders, and you would expect them to defend that same turret with all available force.

If you destroy a turret, and gain control of the widget, then that turret will not respawn for as long as you maintain control of the widget. You can systematically deal with each turret one at a time.

Admittedly, you have to maintain the widgets, until someone consolidates all of them, but that keeps the action flowing.

Flowing action is one of the strong points of my idea. No one can just hang things up. If you have a widget, you are a target, and you have to keep moving, while staying in a prescribed area.

That's fantastic, TRS. And you'll be contributing the six to seven figure advertising budget necessary to get the player base that would make your ideal station capture mechanic viable, right?

I do not see how you interpret anything to require a large player base.

It looks to me that the system would inherently scale itself to any size player base.

Lecter: What if no one could dock with a widget until they had all 8 on board, ala my system? This would mean that if a defender wanted to interfere with widget gathering, they would have to actively maintain possession of the widget. Also, getting kicked out of the station once all 8 turrets are down, and requiring each widget to recapture, would mean that no one can win through exploits or just waiting out the game. Either they defend the turrets or they eventually lose.

You can of course force a loss through roiding of cargo, but then you lose too.

I see your point about playerbase, but at the same time, if the demands on defender and attacker are identical, then it should scale somewhat naturally. What's your take on the number of players that should be necessary to take a station?

Maalik's idea is great, back on it:

Hail a turret, it replies the now valid key. the required one, single phrase as /listkeys does:

ACTIVE key id: 3, description: Ostello Lennan Owner Key for Latos I-8

also, this reply should trigger a "Clean keychain" routine, since old keys will never more be used.

Same topic, add option to /listkeys to DROP one/all key(s).

Ray doesn't know what "the desired behaviour" is, beyond right now. He doesn't look much beyond the current implementation, and even when he's aware of what's coming, he often doesn't really process it until he starts working on it. So, unless you hear directional gameplay specifics from me, it may not be canonical.

I already commented that fine grained turret IFF will be an option down the road. I would expect this to include a turret responding to an attack from someone with a user key.

Are you saying that Ray is a n00b?

I'm just saying Ray focuses on the work in front of him. For more big-picture stuff, I usually need to be involved. I'm not dissing Ray or anything, the fact that he keeps his head down and pushes forward tends to make him one of the most productive of us. He isn't distracted all the time by trying to keep 50,000 balls in the air and organized in his head, the way I am.