Leber. I do play other games. And while they are light years ahead in content, they suck at pvp. I would love to see far more content in vo, but if we break the combat system, it would be pointless. The combat system is very good. It is the one thing that keeps many of us here. I want to tweek it. Carefully.

I am all for supporting shape's play style, just not exclusively.

I would think we could agree on a minimalistic set of changes that would be easy to implement, not break the current combat system, and fix most of our complaints. Don't break what we have. For many of us, it is all we have.

So, the whole point of a Newtonian flight model is you can be facing one direction while going another. It's already a hit to reality that there are speed caps, but most people accept this for the sake of the game and move on.

But, that aside, the ships already have different forward and backward velocities. It's the turbo and I think it works just fine.

Just try facing Strat in his rev C some time and you'll find out how futile it is to try and just back up.

There may be fixes in the system, but backward velocities is not one of them, IMO. Heck, I'd say the combat system is pretty much ok as it is. The devs should really be concentrating on content and not this or that weapon or ship tweak.

Personally, I enjoy the all-energy endurance matches. I don't find them any less exciting than the up-close and personal kind and potentially more challenging. You have to really sustain concentration in the endurance duels and it can sometimes be pretty obvious when you "break" your opponent.

Either way, the combat model as it currently is sustains both types and it's up to individual style to determine how the dance plays out. The system works.

DivisionByZero: AFAIK ships currently DON'T have different speeds backing up or moving forward, the reason he catches up is that he's strafing less than you.

As I said earlier, I'm not for changing directional speeds, just directional thrust.

Re: Enforcing my playing style,

I'm really not trying to, I happen to like a lot of the combat system, I just see a lot of benefits to reduced fight durations, and imo, the only way those are possible is to:

A) make disengagement more difficult.

B) make weapons more effective, by increasing their damage or reducing armor.

I imagine the ideal system being a bit like a battle between samurai, a lot of footwork and then a decisive strike

I wish Vendetta could become a real MMO instead of 1v1 ad nauseam.

Well, that's the idea. See, If I'm fighting in a Nation War, if I get 5-1'd at any given time, my only solution that will keep me alive is to disengage for a while until some of those players find other targets, or my teammates come in to even the odds. Maybe take a few potshots at the people following me, see if I can isolate one of them.

On the other hand, if there's the possibility that a sudden well planned strike will take out one of the enemies, then I don't need to disengage to have a chance at winning.

I loved QuakeWorld with a passion. I more than once so dominated a QuakeWorld server, that I ended up on the server alone. I sometimes feel like I am doing that to VO.

I can not count the number of times in VO that I have been ganked by players that normally hated each other, but where driven by common cause to eradicate the overwhelming threat.

I consider this a valid tactic, and I fear, Shape, that you are suggesting that this tactic be diminished or compromised.

Sometimes overwhelming numbers of newbs can exert their will. And I like that.

What are you complaining about Shape? You are already a god of VO. You don't have to accept challenge from every lamer that builds a loadout designed to exactly counter your current ship. If they don't want to match you, tell them to move on.

A fun and exciting fight is in the hands of the participants.

the ships already have different forward and backward velocities. It's the turbo

And that just nailed you perfectly, Shape. What you want is already available: you claim it's not because forward and reverse non-turbo is the same, but your claim is that you want to be able to 'dash in' faster than a distance-keeping opponent can 'back up'.

You can: hit turbo. What you're really asking for is that you be able to dash in while maintaing the ability to dodge, which you can't do with turbo. Sorry, but if you want to fucking bum rush, there's gonna be a drawback -- being a target on a fixed vector is that drawback.

As with the "OMG WE HAZ TEH NERRRRFFFFFF TEH FLARZ!!!111 THEYR TOTALLY BEING UZD WHEN PURE ENERGY IS THE ONLY REALZ SKILLZZZ!!" flare thread, you are asking that we change well-established game mechanics to buff your particular preference in combat style. To that I can only say: go fuck yourself.

Roda: I'm not suggesting that ganking will become ineffective, if the changes I suggested were implemented, they need to hit you less to win, and it's harder to get out of the way, but I agree it does offer better chances to a skilled player in a multi.

I'm not arguing this point because I want to be better than my opponents, I'm arguing because I genuinely think it will be more fun for all involved.

Lecter: Thrusting forward in a fight isn't a weakness, it's a deathwish. There is no equivalent to the lunge in fencing.

And I'm really not trying to buff my own playing style, what I'm suggesting is designed to bring the game in line with most FPS fare.

And I was nothing but respectful in previous posts to you Lecter, so go clean out your mouth with a rusty chainsaw and try again.

Thrusting forward in a fight isn't a weakness, it's a deathwish.

Thanks for proving my point.

And on further thought, how about this:

Before you leave the dock, you have the opportunity to tweak your engine, this means that you have a certain number of thrust points to apply.

I, for example, could choose the following for my vulture:

600 Thrust points to apply, (if you keep it balanced, the way it is now, you can think of these as percentage points., 100% in each direction)

Forward thrust: 130%
Up Thrust: 110%
Down Thrust: 110%
Left Thrust: 100%
Right Thrust: 100%
Back Thrust: 50%

Hence I have built a ship capable of charging effectively, but I give up my reverse thrust ability.

Someone who prefers distance control could develop a similar structure.

Edit: note, these wouldn't be changes in speed, merely in acceleration, so if I'm strafing, and switch to full forward, I get to top speed faster

Your point is that we have no analog to a lunge?

OMG! Customizing our ships! Heresy I say! Balsphamy even!

I'm definitely in favor of this, but I suspect it would be a right bitch to implement.

Shape, your lack of understanding re: fencing technique is really hindering this "I want to lunge in VO combat" analogy you keep trying for. Let me break it down for you:

Turbo provides you with rapid forward movement that allows you to quickly close distance with your opponent, but at the cost of being unable to dodge when you do so. Unsurprisingly, a lunge has all of the same drawbacks: once you lunge, you are committed. If executed at the wrong time--usually when too far away--the lunge becomes a sure way to get hit. If executed at the right time, it often allows you to get in fast and hit before your opponent can back up or stop thrust you. Again, many similarities to turbo.

Now, to switch to another preppie sport, sailing, you need to not try and mislead the reader into thinking that either of us is really saying "turbo in from 300m out without stopping." The correct approach is to turbo tack in towards your retreating target, never staying on a turbo vectror for too long. Your average forward speed will still increase, it will just do so while preserving an appropriate handicap.

So, my point is that we have an analog to a lunge, but you're asking for something quite different. I do like your "able to tweak" approach, though I think a simpler approach might be to just make variants that have differential thrust. It's your 'let's do this across the board because catering to my preferred style of combat is best for everyone' that I find objectionable.

Finally, if you get a lunge, I want a ballestra.

ballestra - be at full reverse with you opponent full forward to engage you. hold your turbo and brake at the same time so that your opponent rams into your blasters.

Lecter: I fail to see where this supposed lack of understanding of fencing technique comes in...

Here's the analogy that you are proposing:

"A Lunge is to Fencing, as Turbo is to VO."

However, as a technique, there are circumstances where a Lunge applies, and is correct. As we determined earlier, there are few enough circumstances when turbo is correct inside a battle to make it a non-technique. Hence, it is a bad analogy.

It has all the same drawbacks, and none of the same advantages.

Hence, I would like a proper analog to the lunge.

If you would like a ballestra, I'd love to hear your implementation. I chose a lunge because the nuts and bolts are a very fast advancing attack, which may, in fact, leave one over-extended and unbalanced to a counter.

As we determined earlier, there are few enough circumstances when turbo is correct inside a battle to make it a non-technique.

And now you're just no longer reading the posts to which you claim to be responding.

And this would be a ballestra:

Is that a pogo stick?

ok you are both retarded since vo allows for equal movements in all directions it is much more like wrestling or mma then it is like fencing seeing as you can move in pretty much wherever you want where fencing makes you stay in a pretty narrow line with your opponent

Shape, I'd expect you to have known what that was even without being able to check the image properties.

Astrophysics != Rocket Science

with the exception of solar sails, I don't usually keep up with propulsion tech, I figured it was a propulsion device of some kind (I didn't check the image tags), I was just being facetious. Would make a pretty killer pogo stick no?

peytros: "Fencing" doesn't necessarily apply only to the European model. Kendo and many other kinds of swordsmanship are also often called fencing. Also, MMA limits movement to a ring.

I also can't think of any form of fighting where people are capable of moving backward as quickly as they move forward.

But as I stated earlier, I'm open to the idea of customizable thrust. There are lots of ways to take it.