Forums » Suggestions
This suggestion is a little different, in that its not JUST to the devs, but also to the player base as a whole.
I'd like to preface this with the caveat that it's not directed at any particular group, so I'd appreciate it if any and all replies neglect anecdotal evidence of persons in violation of this principle. Also, I wrote some of these thoughts in an RP thread, but I wanted to consolidate them further in a suggestion. So my apologies for the redundant points.
Right now, PvP is the best thrill VO has to offer. However, the way the game is designed, it is possible to use tactics which delay and draw out a fight to the point where the fight itself becomes a grind. As the game is designed, these are "valid tactics", and I can't argue with that. I can, however, argue, that they're not much fun.
When I get into a fight, I want a roller-coaster ride, spinning, strafing, and trying to get a bead on my opponent who's doing something similar. I try to fight in such a way as to maximize the action, because I know that this is more fun than using certain high percentage win strategies. My primary mantra is "Have fun and keep it exciting". If a tactic isn't fun or exciting, I try my best not to use it, no matter how valid it is.
If I back off during a fight, a little timer leaps to the forefront of my thoughts, I start thinking "alright, I can't stay back like this for too long, I'm just taking a short break from the action, as soon as my energy is full, I'll swoop in again". Likewise, in NW, I may hit and run a lot, but ultimately, I figure the most fun is had in spiraling in-between the opposing ships, getting close enough where we both have a shot at the kill. Nothing in the game forces me to do this and it probably isn't the most foolproof strategy (on second thought, forget "probably", it isn't foolproof), but damn is it fun.
Because of this, I eat a lot of flares, (I'm sorry but spending 20 minutes firing at someone from 150-250m, trying to get them to exhaust their flares, may work, but I'll be damned if I'm going to waste 20 minutes doing it), and I do things which are insane from the point of strategy. (Read: Charge, Charge, Charge) Fundamentally, I hope that I make the fight exciting for my opponent.
My suggestion is for more people to think this way. Let's throw out: "What's the best way to win?"
And embrace: "What's the best way to win which is still exciting for both of us?"
The suggestion also passes along to the devs: Try to eliminate/reduce the impact/effectiveness of strategies which slow down the game and remove that edge-of-your-seat thrill.
For example, if you create a weapon which can only be beaten by the opponent sitting at 250m and taking pot shots until their opponent gets lazy dodging, you've probably made fights less exciting.
If you allow ships to travel backward as quickly as they do forward, then distance control also slows down fights, since the player with the longer range weapons simply chooses that range, and sticks to it, and waits for the other guy to tire out.
If flares are capable of dealing more damage close range than blasters, then either one party in the fight is going to have be insane (read: Me) or the fight is going to last for ages.
As Incarnate said earlier: Frustration does not make for fun. He was using it to refer to travel time. But I'd like to extend that to fights themselves.
I do my very best to keep fights short and fast-paced, in opposition to the prevailing wisdom of how to deal with certain loadouts, but I need help, from the devs, and the rest of you guys. When I think space fighter game, I think Battlestar Galactica-esque fighter jock, pulling a 6g bank to take out an opponent decisively. I don't think of something akin to a game of Pong where you try to dodge the ball.
I'd like to preface this with the caveat that it's not directed at any particular group, so I'd appreciate it if any and all replies neglect anecdotal evidence of persons in violation of this principle. Also, I wrote some of these thoughts in an RP thread, but I wanted to consolidate them further in a suggestion. So my apologies for the redundant points.
Right now, PvP is the best thrill VO has to offer. However, the way the game is designed, it is possible to use tactics which delay and draw out a fight to the point where the fight itself becomes a grind. As the game is designed, these are "valid tactics", and I can't argue with that. I can, however, argue, that they're not much fun.
When I get into a fight, I want a roller-coaster ride, spinning, strafing, and trying to get a bead on my opponent who's doing something similar. I try to fight in such a way as to maximize the action, because I know that this is more fun than using certain high percentage win strategies. My primary mantra is "Have fun and keep it exciting". If a tactic isn't fun or exciting, I try my best not to use it, no matter how valid it is.
If I back off during a fight, a little timer leaps to the forefront of my thoughts, I start thinking "alright, I can't stay back like this for too long, I'm just taking a short break from the action, as soon as my energy is full, I'll swoop in again". Likewise, in NW, I may hit and run a lot, but ultimately, I figure the most fun is had in spiraling in-between the opposing ships, getting close enough where we both have a shot at the kill. Nothing in the game forces me to do this and it probably isn't the most foolproof strategy (on second thought, forget "probably", it isn't foolproof), but damn is it fun.
Because of this, I eat a lot of flares, (I'm sorry but spending 20 minutes firing at someone from 150-250m, trying to get them to exhaust their flares, may work, but I'll be damned if I'm going to waste 20 minutes doing it), and I do things which are insane from the point of strategy. (Read: Charge, Charge, Charge) Fundamentally, I hope that I make the fight exciting for my opponent.
My suggestion is for more people to think this way. Let's throw out: "What's the best way to win?"
And embrace: "What's the best way to win which is still exciting for both of us?"
The suggestion also passes along to the devs: Try to eliminate/reduce the impact/effectiveness of strategies which slow down the game and remove that edge-of-your-seat thrill.
For example, if you create a weapon which can only be beaten by the opponent sitting at 250m and taking pot shots until their opponent gets lazy dodging, you've probably made fights less exciting.
If you allow ships to travel backward as quickly as they do forward, then distance control also slows down fights, since the player with the longer range weapons simply chooses that range, and sticks to it, and waits for the other guy to tire out.
If flares are capable of dealing more damage close range than blasters, then either one party in the fight is going to have be insane (read: Me) or the fight is going to last for ages.
As Incarnate said earlier: Frustration does not make for fun. He was using it to refer to travel time. But I'd like to extend that to fights themselves.
I do my very best to keep fights short and fast-paced, in opposition to the prevailing wisdom of how to deal with certain loadouts, but I need help, from the devs, and the rest of you guys. When I think space fighter game, I think Battlestar Galactica-esque fighter jock, pulling a 6g bank to take out an opponent decisively. I don't think of something akin to a game of Pong where you try to dodge the ball.
Just wondering... do you count running amongst these 'valid but boring tactics'?
In general, I am in full agreement with the views expressed by you in your post; however, I do not feel that there is a way to fully avoid such things happening; at best you can curb them to some extent. I am also sure that you are already aware of that, I just wanted to point it out.
In general, I am in full agreement with the views expressed by you in your post; however, I do not feel that there is a way to fully avoid such things happening; at best you can curb them to some extent. I am also sure that you are already aware of that, I just wanted to point it out.
Well, yeah, that's the disadvantage of flares. While it's possible to hit people at 500+ meters (I've done it before to backrollers; much loling was had), the effective range of a flare is between 80 and 150m. About one second of flight time.
It's quite easy to beat flares, really, especially with pilots as talented and crazy as you, Shape. You just have to get within60ish meters. If I fire, it hurts you, and hurts me twice as much. Or you're within the fuse distance and it doesn't blow. Honestly, it's pretty balanced in that sense, it's just that few people use their heads and try to fight rockets like they would blasters.
Other than that, full support of this. I always fought the same way! While I might have 2300 deaths for every 2000 PVP kills, all 4300 of those fights were damn fun!
It's quite easy to beat flares, really, especially with pilots as talented and crazy as you, Shape. You just have to get within60ish meters. If I fire, it hurts you, and hurts me twice as much. Or you're within the fuse distance and it doesn't blow. Honestly, it's pretty balanced in that sense, it's just that few people use their heads and try to fight rockets like they would blasters.
Other than that, full support of this. I always fought the same way! While I might have 2300 deaths for every 2000 PVP kills, all 4300 of those fights were damn fun!
Shape, I agree with you about 90%. In 1v1 consensual fighting (think: b8 or that sort), I agree that a fight is to the death, or to a percentage agreed upon before the fight if neither party feels like losing his or her ship in that fight.
In group fights / furballs, to the death fights are indeed more fun (NW is one hell of an event), but furballs do not always have the sole intent of being for the fun of it. Sometimes (and it's sad that this is true), the intent of the furball is to turn back an enemy force, or moreover to cause as much financial hardship as one can in a short period of time (to deter the enemy from engaging in their normal activities).
I remember the furballs of a little over half a year ago where VPR and CLM would fight to the death until either the wee hours or everyone ran out of cash (which ever came first). I submit to you that in the more recent months, those who fight on the other side have become less jovial comrades who chose a different path in a half-decade long fight, and more ill-intentioned loudmouths who do what they can to rob players of fun and dignity (and that is all I will say as to the character of my opponents. I do not intend for this discussion to become a flamewar). Against this newfound enemy, I find (to my chagrin) my goal is to repel and inflict damage, not to ensure that both groups enjoy themselves, as I find that when my opponents are enjoying themselves, few others are.
In group fights / furballs, to the death fights are indeed more fun (NW is one hell of an event), but furballs do not always have the sole intent of being for the fun of it. Sometimes (and it's sad that this is true), the intent of the furball is to turn back an enemy force, or moreover to cause as much financial hardship as one can in a short period of time (to deter the enemy from engaging in their normal activities).
I remember the furballs of a little over half a year ago where VPR and CLM would fight to the death until either the wee hours or everyone ran out of cash (which ever came first). I submit to you that in the more recent months, those who fight on the other side have become less jovial comrades who chose a different path in a half-decade long fight, and more ill-intentioned loudmouths who do what they can to rob players of fun and dignity (and that is all I will say as to the character of my opponents. I do not intend for this discussion to become a flamewar). Against this newfound enemy, I find (to my chagrin) my goal is to repel and inflict damage, not to ensure that both groups enjoy themselves, as I find that when my opponents are enjoying themselves, few others are.
tosh: Re: running. I do think it slows down fights, the fact that many ships can disengage so easily strikes me as odd. I guess what I'm saying is that I encourage players not to disengage, for the sake of their own and other players fun. And I encourage the devs to make it harder to disengage.
I agree that it's very difficult to eliminate these strategies from the game. But, if the devs continue to develop pvp with the mindset that allowing easy disengagement is a vice, then I think these problems can certainly be reduced.
Moldy: I'll try that more, but it seems like against every flare loadout I fight, they can retreat back to 80-150 m no problem, and then launch. Especially valks, flown properly, it's next to impossible to control the range against them.
Aticephyr: As tempers start to run high and genuine dislike spreads between the 2 sides, it's true that people often lose sight of this principle. People feel that their honor has been maligned and take steps to return the favor. This is where I feel the devs have a role, in trying to develop the game in such a way that an exciting, to-the-death fight, does not require that everyone has to like each other and be willing to play ball.
I would like this not to be necessary, but I'm under no illusions that people on teh intarweb will play nicely. As long as tactics are programmed in, they will be used, and it will generate frustration among all parties involved.
I won't comment on the VPR vs Pirates situation, cuz I said I didn't want to refer to specific persons or organizations.
I agree that it's very difficult to eliminate these strategies from the game. But, if the devs continue to develop pvp with the mindset that allowing easy disengagement is a vice, then I think these problems can certainly be reduced.
Moldy: I'll try that more, but it seems like against every flare loadout I fight, they can retreat back to 80-150 m no problem, and then launch. Especially valks, flown properly, it's next to impossible to control the range against them.
Aticephyr: As tempers start to run high and genuine dislike spreads between the 2 sides, it's true that people often lose sight of this principle. People feel that their honor has been maligned and take steps to return the favor. This is where I feel the devs have a role, in trying to develop the game in such a way that an exciting, to-the-death fight, does not require that everyone has to like each other and be willing to play ball.
I would like this not to be necessary, but I'm under no illusions that people on teh intarweb will play nicely. As long as tactics are programmed in, they will be used, and it will generate frustration among all parties involved.
I won't comment on the VPR vs Pirates situation, cuz I said I didn't want to refer to specific persons or organizations.
Combat for combat's own sake=FPS
Combat as a (hopefully fun in and of itself) means of harming the opposing side's interests and/or furthering your own=RPG
Guess which one I already have vastly superior options to VO for?
Combat as a (hopefully fun in and of itself) means of harming the opposing side's interests and/or furthering your own=RPG
Guess which one I already have vastly superior options to VO for?
When both sides show up in equal all energy fighters, a fight to the death it is. But when someone brings a agt/flare prom, who wants to stick their all energy light fighter in their face? Or a triflare valk? some people just fly lame setups. I myself have pulled out the prom to face the dreaded flare/energy rev-c. some loadouts just demand that you answer lameness with lameness, or just die.
it is one thing to bring an agt/flare prom to a group fight when you have fighter escort, but to duel 1v1 in? an energy fighter has no real option but to play the range card.
"keep it exciting" is a challenge first answered with the ships and loadouts brought to battle.
it is one thing to bring an agt/flare prom to a group fight when you have fighter escort, but to duel 1v1 in? an energy fighter has no real option but to play the range card.
"keep it exciting" is a challenge first answered with the ships and loadouts brought to battle.
The notion of "honor" is what is wrong here. If you discard that, then the remaining issue is that there are too few good strategies and loadouts, not the concept that fights should be fair or balanced.
Above all, the purpose of an MMO is to have multiple people involved, yet VO offers almost nothing to add depth to fights among lots of players. And here you are upset that the 1v1 offering is dry.
Above all, the purpose of an MMO is to have multiple people involved, yet VO offers almost nothing to add depth to fights among lots of players. And here you are upset that the 1v1 offering is dry.
I think that many of us prefer comments from those that actually do pvp. pretenders would perhaps be best ignored.
I think that many of us prefer comments from those that actually do pvp. pretenders would perhaps be best ignored.
Yeah you're right Roda, Shape shouldn't have made this thread at all.
Yeah you're right Roda, Shape shouldn't have made this thread at all.
In a fair 1v1 PvP where both player have the same (or at least equal) ships and load outs (and perhaps even factor in skill?) this thread makes sense. In group combat or unfair matchups this thread is full of horseshit.
You should rename this thread to "charge into battle no matter what or your a sissy".
You should rename this thread to "charge into battle no matter what or your a sissy".
I think shape is talking about 1v1.
The point of distance control and flares is very interesting. Right now, there are two dead zones for good flare aimers: point blank and >150m. The point blank range is very difficult to maintain as it is barely a 10m area, so most of the time the only way to take on flare users is to do what you said, spend 20 minutes of distance control. And with people like Strat, if you choose a ship that's terrible at distance control then you have almost no chance. One thing you could do is increase the point blank dead zone, as to create more than one distance control range to switch between in flare vs. energy. This way, it's valid to get the fight in close and not only the energy fighter, but also the flare user would have to worry about a distance control technique other than either flooring it straight forward or pushing it in full reverse. If a flare user is beating you in the long range zone, you will have the option to bring it in close. As for the gatling turret, hopefully that will be fixed soon.
Okay, just so everyone understands, my comments weren't limited to 1v1 combat at all.
Quote: "In a fair 1v1 PvP where both player have the same (or at least equal) ships and load outs (and perhaps even factor in skill?) this thread makes sense. In group combat or unfair matchups this thread is full of horseshit.
You should rename this thread to "charge into battle no matter what or your a sissy"."
I didn't call anyone a sissy, I suggested that both players and the devs endeavor to keep fights fast paced. I fight in lots of unfair matchups, and if I wanted to, I could draw the fight out forever. The only thing that keeps me from playing that way is that it's boring. I'm talking about not being able to easily leave a field of battle, whether by backing off or turboing away.
Imo, You're welcome to avoid engaging in a battle, but if you do, in fact, engage, the rules of the game should prevent you from being able to spend all your time out of their weapons range simply by holding the reverse key.
Katarn: I'm confused, what exactly did I do to get your panties in a twist?
I have ~ 5500 pk's across my accounts, many of them in multi's and large battles... If you want to be insulting, fine, but at least be creative enough to make allegations about my play which aren't obviously false.
As far as your point. I'm not demanding that people play with honor. I just think your typical 1v1 scuffle should take all of 20 seconds from start to finish. Now, ideally, that means buffing weapons and reducing armor on ships, so that your typical ship can't take more than a few shots.
As far as FPS fare, VO is unique in how long it actually takes to kill someone. In counterstrike, or any of the mods, or really ANY first person shooter, a fight between 2 players usually lasts all of 5 seconds from start to finish.
However, if the devs want to keep the engines, weapons and ships the way they are, then I simply encourage players to create these high speed environments on their own.
Quote: "In a fair 1v1 PvP where both player have the same (or at least equal) ships and load outs (and perhaps even factor in skill?) this thread makes sense. In group combat or unfair matchups this thread is full of horseshit.
You should rename this thread to "charge into battle no matter what or your a sissy"."
I didn't call anyone a sissy, I suggested that both players and the devs endeavor to keep fights fast paced. I fight in lots of unfair matchups, and if I wanted to, I could draw the fight out forever. The only thing that keeps me from playing that way is that it's boring. I'm talking about not being able to easily leave a field of battle, whether by backing off or turboing away.
Imo, You're welcome to avoid engaging in a battle, but if you do, in fact, engage, the rules of the game should prevent you from being able to spend all your time out of their weapons range simply by holding the reverse key.
Katarn: I'm confused, what exactly did I do to get your panties in a twist?
I have ~ 5500 pk's across my accounts, many of them in multi's and large battles... If you want to be insulting, fine, but at least be creative enough to make allegations about my play which aren't obviously false.
As far as your point. I'm not demanding that people play with honor. I just think your typical 1v1 scuffle should take all of 20 seconds from start to finish. Now, ideally, that means buffing weapons and reducing armor on ships, so that your typical ship can't take more than a few shots.
As far as FPS fare, VO is unique in how long it actually takes to kill someone. In counterstrike, or any of the mods, or really ANY first person shooter, a fight between 2 players usually lasts all of 5 seconds from start to finish.
However, if the devs want to keep the engines, weapons and ships the way they are, then I simply encourage players to create these high speed environments on their own.
I agree that it should be a choice to engage or flee, and that the choice should be somewhat binding. I have made and seen suggestions along these lines.
a) turbo shudder or turbo stall so you can not instantly cycle between non turbo and turbo. turbo and hold it, or stand and fight.
b) slower reverse speed.
c) engine damage
etc...
something that separates the traders from the pirates. nothing wrong with running, if that is what you do to begin with. it is the fight until losing part that is frustrating.
a) turbo shudder or turbo stall so you can not instantly cycle between non turbo and turbo. turbo and hold it, or stand and fight.
b) slower reverse speed.
c) engine damage
etc...
something that separates the traders from the pirates. nothing wrong with running, if that is what you do to begin with. it is the fight until losing part that is frustrating.
I've been avoiding posting in these threads again because all I get is flamed (even though shape said exactly what I said in the last thread and he got hurrahs) but I have to say this because a lot of people are making judgements based on propaganda and assumptions instead of experience.
GRIEFERS VS. PIRATES
What is the difference? Is there one? Most of you erroneously believe they are one in the same, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. Now, don't get me wrong, in the good guys vs. bad guys scheme of things, pirates are still the bad guys but with several important distinctions from a griefer, and here they are:
-INTENTION: Pirates want your money, that's it. If you pay them, chances are you're going to fly free for 24 hours. A griefer wants to irritate, anger, upset and annoy you with the intention of making you log off, change professions, or quit the game forever. They can't be bargained with, they can't be persuaded to change. Their ultimate goal is to make you so angry that you give up.
-RULES: Griefers don't care how they get what they get. They'll swarm and run, station camp, declare war, etc. Pirates actually have rules. They may not be rules you like, but there are lines we don't cross.
-GRIEFERS ARE ZEALOTS: Griefers are on a mission and they feel righteous in their mission. A pirate, well, we're out for money and fun.
I have over 7600 PKs over my characters. I would say 75% of those pks are from furballs, probably more. I like furballs, they're supposed to be fun for everyone. If I'm out of ammo, I hang out and dodge until I'm dead or my opponents are all killed. Lately though, the tactics I'm encountering fall into the griefer category. There are those people who stalk and station camp, there are those that attack and fight until they think they can't win and then they leave. There are the people who know they lag so badly they are nearly unhittable, but they continue to fight.
There is a decided lack of fun.
I know I'm obnoxious and I smack talk constantly, but for me it's all about fun and entertainment. I feel like lately, other people aren't having fun, they're simply trying to ruin the fun for others.
GRIEFERS VS. PIRATES
What is the difference? Is there one? Most of you erroneously believe they are one in the same, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. Now, don't get me wrong, in the good guys vs. bad guys scheme of things, pirates are still the bad guys but with several important distinctions from a griefer, and here they are:
-INTENTION: Pirates want your money, that's it. If you pay them, chances are you're going to fly free for 24 hours. A griefer wants to irritate, anger, upset and annoy you with the intention of making you log off, change professions, or quit the game forever. They can't be bargained with, they can't be persuaded to change. Their ultimate goal is to make you so angry that you give up.
-RULES: Griefers don't care how they get what they get. They'll swarm and run, station camp, declare war, etc. Pirates actually have rules. They may not be rules you like, but there are lines we don't cross.
-GRIEFERS ARE ZEALOTS: Griefers are on a mission and they feel righteous in their mission. A pirate, well, we're out for money and fun.
I have over 7600 PKs over my characters. I would say 75% of those pks are from furballs, probably more. I like furballs, they're supposed to be fun for everyone. If I'm out of ammo, I hang out and dodge until I'm dead or my opponents are all killed. Lately though, the tactics I'm encountering fall into the griefer category. There are those people who stalk and station camp, there are those that attack and fight until they think they can't win and then they leave. There are the people who know they lag so badly they are nearly unhittable, but they continue to fight.
There is a decided lack of fun.
I know I'm obnoxious and I smack talk constantly, but for me it's all about fun and entertainment. I feel like lately, other people aren't having fun, they're simply trying to ruin the fun for others.
how is it fun to relentlessly verbally abuse people? fun for you maybe. not fun for others. thats how hate develops and why things deteriorate. shut up and play the game.
how is it fun to relentlessly verbally abuse people? thats how hate develops
No, hate develops when fruitloops such as yourself take life, themselves, and some VO smack talk waaaaaaaaaaay too fucking seriously. Go rub one out (I know you don't have a woman), crack open one of your daddy's beers, and then come back and try VO again. I promise you'll feel better.
No, hate develops when fruitloops such as yourself take life, themselves, and some VO smack talk waaaaaaaaaaay too fucking seriously. Go rub one out (I know you don't have a woman), crack open one of your daddy's beers, and then come back and try VO again. I promise you'll feel better.
Yay, you already managed to turn this into a flame war.
Not that I expected any less.
I stand by my right to disengage from fights I did not wish for or agree with, which serve no purpose, and which I will probably not win. Note that I do not run from every fight, just the ones which fulfill all the above criteria.
Not that I expected any less.
I stand by my right to disengage from fights I did not wish for or agree with, which serve no purpose, and which I will probably not win. Note that I do not run from every fight, just the ones which fulfill all the above criteria.
"charge into battle no matter what or your a sissy"
Thats my standard tactic. there are many times that as a tactic... it falls just a bit short.
Thats my standard tactic. there are many times that as a tactic... it falls just a bit short.