On the subject of not being able to find people: right now people don't say anything on sector chat just to see who is in the sector because they don't need to, they can see the sector list. What if this is implemented? Then people will say hi on sector and see who is in the sector that way. Unless someone doesn't want to announce themselves and is beyond the range of radar. Which is the entire point of this anyway. And if you're trying to find people, chances are you don't mean you're trying to find pirates/griefers/people who would be hiding from you and not interacting. Because you want to find people to interact with them, which requires either the comm (done at any range) or being pretty close, in which case this change wouldn't affect it at all.

Newbies don't know to look at the sector list anyway, so they never know if they've seen another person even if they flew past one. Thus, instead of learning to look at the list, they'd learn whatever custom we came up with to see who all was around. It's really not that different: before, if you jumped into a sector and someone was there but out of range, if they wanted to interact with you they would interact, and if not they wouldn't. The only thing that would change with this would be that you wouldn't know when everyone jumps in and out, if they're out of range. So? If you were interacting with them, you still can. If you were making note of them to be careful, you get to be careful all the time. I see no problem with this.

From LeberMac's reply about coping with the inherent danger of flying in VO: Pilots should be prepared for battle after EVERY jump. Hell, I STILL hit "u" after every jump, it's habit.

This is why this HAS to go, Incarnate. The game breaking lameness of knowing instantly if you're in danger as soon as you enter any sector anywhere in VO is shown perfectly by this habit.

You jump, you hit "u" and you look at the magic list. You then know right away what's up in the terrain you entered, zero danger or exploration of an unknown (unless you somehow managed to jump in right on top of someone--but the grossly oversized WHs make that unlikely), and carry right on your way using that boring to obtain knowledge. Sounds like a fun, immersive game, huh? fail.

i think MSKanaka hit it right on the head. VO is not ready for this change this yet. there just aren't enough players. the sectors are too small. and there are other issues at hand that need to be dealt with.
with the small playerbase, most people will feel "alone" most of the time ... heh, more than they do now. why in the hell should your radar see 10km away? theres nothing there? maybe 'u' should show who is in the sector, but not able to register its ship or anything until 5k away. for now.
but i dont think this idea should even be toyed with until its prerequisites are completed.
capships should already be able for us to fly, imo. If we had capships, we would need bigger sectors and longer radars, or ACCESSORY PORTS to put our radar extenders on. we would be able to transfer ships to other players. we would have 2 totally different types of pvp. there should also be way more capships just flying around, it would make the universe more epic, for lack of better word atm.
the sectors need to get larger with more stuff in them. perhaps make the system into quadrants or something? maybe 4 quadrants in a system with everything spread out, then you could have another turbo on top of the turbo we have now (i know this was discussed in another thread, but i dont have time to look it up). but i guess all this is for another thread.

what we need to figure out is how SO many players came in through the ad and 20% of them stayed .... if that. i seriously doubt it is because the radars extends too far or short or there is no fog. i dont mean to sound as hostile MSKanaka, but the potential of this game is freaking ridiculous, but the active player base rarely breaks 60.

The point of these suggestions threads is to gain pro/con feedback relating to changes and new features. We usually have these threads well in advance of implementation. I made the FF/Faction RFC nearly two years ago, and I'm still referring to that now. I hope radar changes won't take two years, but I'd still like to get the major discussion in advance.

Ok, so removing the users-in-sector-outside-range list negatively impacts social awareness. I mentioned that like two pages ago. Let's have some discussion on what could replace or mitigate that. Because seeing everyone in the sector on a list is freaking stupid. I refuse to believe that it is a necessity for this game, and there isn't some better way to get people together. Yes, it also hinders future gameplay relating to stealth, fog, current piracy, blah blah.

So, let's keep this on topic. Capships, accessory ports, new types of turbo.. NOT ON TOPIC.

Getting back to the radar range thing, considering pirates are currently able to do their nefarious work under the existing circumstances (5000m radar range, 5000m prox warning, infinite sector list), I fail to see how only removing the infinite-o-view sector list (and not modifying radar ranges) would make anything worse for them. If anything, it should make things better. A 1500m full-awareness radar range is unacceptably short (in a clear-view sector situation). Matching visible range is unacceptably long. I don't care in the slightest if that is "unrealistic", our fastest spaceships fly slower than the terrestrial speed of sound.

On other topics, Miharu can kiss my ass. Yes I DO expect you to forget NPCs have magical radar, I'm a GAME DEVELOPER and this forum is about FORWARD LOOKING DEVELOPMENT; if everything were going to stay static, there would be no point to this thread or forum. Also, the fog effect had been ready for awhile, needed widespread testing (performance, etc) and I am intending to replace Dau K-10. It had zero impact on our bug development time, or anything else. So, seriously, anyone with that level of misplaced hostility is welcome to take it and shove it wherever they like.

Finally, in case it wasn't starkly obvious, we do not develop serially, but in parallel with multiple active pipelines at any given time, and shifting priorities based on the present view (like say, BROKEN VOICE CHAT). Just because I'm asking questions about the radar list, or fogging a sector, does not mean that is blocking someone else doing debugging. With stuff like fog, it usually means it was something "free" to implement that I need for some other future ramification of something else. If you cannot wrap your brain around this concept and feel the need to rant and rave, please don't do it on my forum. Thanks.

i like the idea, of only showing the pilots in range, but I think the radar range should be kept at its current rate, so it doesnt get to hard to find each other, if wanted to. Yay for one line replies!

Two quick suggestions:
1) when docked in station, have a larger radar limit for Nearby Ships. The station most likely has better radar than my tiny ship... (edit: don't mean to harp on an "unrealistic" issue. just rationalizing the idea)
2) if we're making it harder to spot people by radar, it would be cool to make afterburn (or even just normal engine burn) much brighter. That way we might have a shot of spotting someone far away even if they aren't in range. Would also make for an interesting slight change in game dynamic and pirate avoidance.

I know the making burn brighter would have some impact on pvp, so the brightness would most likely have to have a much lesser effect at close (< 3000m) range.

i dont no anyone that turbos in pvp though... but nice ideas

Having a large radar range when docked to a station could be interesting.

Also, we could generically increase radar range in station sectors, to try and help with the whole "social" aspect. Tradeoffs there too, I'm sure. Feedback welcome.

@ Breazle: Some newbies do, and it might be distracting if some bright flash keeps appearing in b8. Also, if turbo became brighter, (depending on how it was implemented) people might try to put it to use as a flash-bomb or some other somewhat-annoying distraction. Those are the issues I was trying to counter.

and thanks :)

I dunno. I'd guess that lifting the time restrictions on system-chat would be enough to mitigate any sense of excessive isolation brought on by this change. In the end, though, increased dread and uncertainty are definite wins for immersion and the game as a whole.

For things like NWs and the hopelessly gregarious, what about a magical device in all ships that would allow you, when you so desire, to broadcast your location (for 10km?, to the sector?, to the system?)

@ Pointsman: Agreed on the system-chat. The magical device would prove troublesome for newbies is my bet though. For NW, stick to the roids. It's pretty simple to use the terrain to designate the boundaries of a fight.

heh ok. larger radar range at station sounds good, may also help station camping, since i could imagine if the radar was reduced that would have happened more

atice: maybe a speed beacon... so it only lights when you are doing say 150m/s +, supposidly there to show other traffic, but that way you could see speeding ships in the distant

Not 100% sure what you mean Breazle. But I think I'm for any implementation that makes it somewhat easier to spot a far-away ship that's speeding around a system. I mean, it shouldn't by any means make it dead obvious, but it would be something that if you were looking for it, you could probably find it.
Though I like your idea of only kicking in at something around 150m/s. That would tie in nicely with the Incarnate-suggested turbo modifications (link: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/13242#166688).

i meant, if the radar was changed in stations, it would make station camping easier. but then your idea about extending station sectors would stop this, and ye lets have the link plz

Ok, so removing the users-in-sector-outside-range list negatively impacts social awareness. Let's have some discussion on what could replace or mitigate that. Because seeing everyone in the sector on a list is freaking stupid.

[1] If 1500m is too short a radar range, Inc., please bear in mind that radar range has a huge interaction with the range/other requirements for jumping away (only 3000m, negligible power requirements, and a slight period of vulnerability on warp-out)--assuming that the relative speeds of VO's main ships remains as it is.

[2] As mentioned above, for the most part people use the same chunks of any given sector (right now), largely because they take straight line paths between jump in points and objects of interest (stations, roids, WHs, combat zones). Even with the advent of "separate" intra-sector space and jumps, there will still be a commonly traveled area that sees the most use. Thus, the actual impact on social interaction of reducing radar range and limiting "u" to only those contacts within radar range is less than might otherwise be thought.

[3] Social interactions aside, there's really three variables at play here: automatic detection range/available reaction time, ease of escape/jump requirements, and relative speeds of two or more pilots. If you want to keep the first between 5000m and 3000m, something really needs to happen with the other two factors, or there's little point to changing the properties of the "u" list.

Ever since the top speed cap, VO has suffered from a gross lack of differentiation in ship speeds. The cuts to the Moth class's top speeds has addressed this somewhat, but nowhere near sufficiently. Simply put, ships that are supposed to be chasers aren't--because the radar range is the same, the jump requirements are the same, but the relative top speeds are no longer the same. The speed cap apparently has to do with ping and combat playability, so it can't go. But, despite the complaints about getting around, the relative differences in speeds between ships needs to be restored by cutting all ships' top speeds, so that the cap doesn't gut one select class of ships.

There's also jump requirements, but eh.

**The above is irrelevant if you're only doing this to allow for sectors to have, say, multiple stations, etc--if that's all this is designed to fix, I couldn't care less about any of it.**

Turbo in pvp can be useful to give your flares that extra burst of speed. Has to used with caution, of course.

That said, radar buoys would be fun, too. Load them like cargo, drop them like cargo, but it has a sphere within which it will detect and identify other ships. Can be destroyed like a mine. Relays the information to the ship that dropped it.

Also, shared targeting would be interesting (has been suggested elsewhere, as well, but ties in well with this): group members should be able to send information on single targets to group mates, perhaps with a cue as to who is targeting them (much like the plugin that sends targeting info to group members does now).

Agreeing with Dr. Lecter that most of the proposed changes to the radar will have little impact on social interaction for the reasons given.

As for Dr. Lecter's campaign in this thread to change the dynamic between pie and rat (upon which he seems to be singularely focused), I don't think drastically reducing radar range is the optimal way to do so as any advantage goes predominantly to the rat.

I would not be adverse to more variety in ship speeds with the understanding that a light or medium ship which can sustain a high enough speed for long enough to catch another ship at "extreme" range will have to give up some combat capability to do so (i.e., a dedicated interceptor "chaser" and not some sort of super-fighter).

Anyway, back on topic...

I'm advocating a decrease in the available reaction time for pilots who are informed of the presence of another ship--essentially, forcing pilots to get closer to one another before they realize they're not alone. A side effect of this is that it will be harder to find/stumble upon other pilots in a sector.

The result, I think, will be more actual interaction between pilots who are doing their own thing, as well as allowing new/better tactics for those actively seeking to avoid detection. This includes pirates/traders, but also combat force A/combat force B, hiders/seekers, miners/pirates-competitive miners, etc. But to address your concern re: rats getting more pie, keep in mind that the pirate suffers from the same limits to the radar that the traders do--they won't be scoping out their prey at 5000m.

And yes, an interceptor ship should sacrifice armor, spin torque, and/or weapon capacity for its ability to close distance before a target can escape.

Woot! Dr. Lecter agreed with me on something!

In any case, I'm reminded of the old (pre-radar and satellite) naval problem of just finding an enemy on the open seas and the parallels in VO; just like in real life, trade routes and choke points determined by coastal geography (asteroid fields and wormholes in VO) are the most likely places to find and engage the enemy. While true that both pies and rats will operate under the same advantages and disadvantages, a smaller radar warning range more heavily favors the aggressor who is waiting along likely routes, monitoring jump points and wormholes, and then approaches at speed.

Keeping on topic, the consensus seems to be a tiered approach to the radar such as: At distance, the radar detects a mass but can't differentiate it from any other mass like an asteroid coming into range so no warning (color it grey on the radar but a wary pilot may still notice it moving). When it gets close enough to determine that the mass in question is a ship, with or without IFF (though I'd go with IFF to avoid adding another layer to the radar system), the proximity warning goes off. This is, incidentally, the same as targeting range and so it is not illogical that you would get such a warning (assuming you have it turned on).

I don't think we'll be able to figure out the best range for the proximity warning until the current sector list is scrapped and we can experiment; decreasing it to less than 5km may be justified but I would argue against any range that "guarantees" contact.

Someone mentioned earlier on in this thread (I think it was Lecter) that being able to escape the same way from a situation in a timely and easy matter is 'fundamentally' game breaking.

What I think he fails to include into this calculation is that (at the very least) I don't want VO to become a haven for PVP Pirates who only play to make other people miserable. I've got a plugin that will tell me what faction of ships and how many there are in my current sector every time I jump in and did (up until a few weeks ago) have that same plugin tell me when a player has jumped into the sector.

Regardless of how large the radar distance is, the fact is that even if you have your prox. warning enabled, you still need time to assess the situation. You need to:
A. Find out what nation the ship who triggered the warning belongs to.
B. Who it is piloting the ship.
C. Find out if they propose a threat that creates the need to drop what you're doing and run away.

If the offending ship is already at or near top speed coming towards you, and worst case scenario that you're in the middle of a mine field possibly in a moth, the chances of you not getting destroyed are low.

This is especially true when entering a sector. Sure, entering a sector should be 'dangerous' - but to a point. Pirates will absolutely abuse this change to no end. They will camp outside radar range and come at you as fast as they can. You'll have little warning before they're on top of you demanding money or some such nonsense. The notion that nation space protects you even to a small point is a complete joke.

Grey space is worse - sure it shouldn't be 'safe' by any stretch of imagination, but it shouldn't be safe for anyone regardless of occupation. Currently its 'dangerous' for Traders and miners and players who simply don't wish to have anything to do with PVP. For Pirates... how is it dangerous? Sure there is VPR, but seriously, how does VPR help after you got lamed at the end of a WH?

The way I've seen the radar vs sensors is that Radar is your short range sector scanner. Your Sensors tab is your long range astrometrics. A sector is STILL dangerous even if you know who is in it at any given time. You don't know how far they are if they're out of range - in fact you don't know where they are at all.

Until specific things are implemented (if they're going to be implemented at all - i.e. Cloaking Devices, masking your radar signature, Speed modifications, etc.) a change like this will only do harm, IMO.

With that said, I suppose that if this change went through, it would mean that the Lua accessible events such as PLAYER_ENTERED_SECTOR and PLAYER_LEFT_SECTOR, among other events, would be completely useless?