Forums » Suggestions
I've frequently seen them jump in behind someone and turn around well before their target left the sector. Maybe that changed what with all the weird NPC issues lately.
Lexi's suggestion #4:
Make em the beam cannons of old. get within 1,000 meters (Coincidentally, the No Fire Zone is also 1,000 meters!), and they go boom, most likely.
Make em the beam cannons of old. get within 1,000 meters (Coincidentally, the No Fire Zone is also 1,000 meters!), and they go boom, most likely.
I'm all about the VO universe being a dangerous place. However, Miharu is right. If we don't give noobs some kind of protection the game will never grow like we want it to...no matter how many great programming changes the Devs make to the game. A real economy/faction system/guild system/crafting/etc will all be meaningless unless the playerbase eventually grows with them.
Miharu is also right in that noobs won't stay if they can't last long enough to learn to fly a ship.
A PVP flag sounds like the best way to combat this. Restricting a person with a PVP-off flag to a given system makes sense. It would probably take some trial and error to figure out what license level to remove the flag at. I think even just Combat 1 would be good enough. As long as the flag keeps the noob from damaging other players as well as being damaged, they couldn't really terrorize anyone-even if they are just someone's alt.
Miharu is also right in that noobs won't stay if they can't last long enough to learn to fly a ship.
A PVP flag sounds like the best way to combat this. Restricting a person with a PVP-off flag to a given system makes sense. It would probably take some trial and error to figure out what license level to remove the flag at. I think even just Combat 1 would be good enough. As long as the flag keeps the noob from damaging other players as well as being damaged, they couldn't really terrorize anyone-even if they are just someone's alt.
Alright, I'll bite.
Wrong. Plenty of experienced players can create a character that they consider a "throwaway", level them up just a bit, then tank, say, their UIT standing, and home in a TPG station in Dau. Then they could easily make runs into a nearby n00b-spawning station sector and kill them as they undock. Why this is done is a mystery to me. Perhaps it speaks to a character flaw in the player doing the n00b killing. Perhaps the n00b-killers were not hugged enough by their mothers. Regardless, it's a cry for attention (negative) in the same way that a petulant teen will act-out in a passive-aggressive manner, transferring their anger and feelings of inadequacy onto others. Most of the playerbase can restrain themselves from camping a n00b-spawning station because, well, they know that doing that is "Bad For The Game™".
If you don't care about faction hits on a throwaway character, the NFZ may as well not be there - the n00b will be dead long before the SF can kill the aggressor.
Very true, and I agree with your sentiments.
I agree with Lecter's 2nd point. A station should not care much about whether a "Hated" pilot gets 'sploded, whether inside the NFZ or not.
I remain undecided.
Regarding Lecter's 3rd point, XP hits for killing n00bs will be "un-implementable" anyway, once the existing "levels" structure is done away with and everything is based off of missions and mission flags being set. So I don't think that the devs will be bringing XP penalties back for this. Since, essentially, soon there will be no such thing as XP.
I concede that you have a point here, and I agree.
Now, about Lecter's 4th point: ... the Strike Force already provides ideal protection. Well, no, since it takes a while to launch and form up, and by that time any n00b in a station sector is dead already. They're more like a punishment force - if you fire on someone inside the NFZ, you're temp KOS. There's no difference between wounding and killing someone - the SF will be after you regardless.
A Strike Force cannot be 100% lethal, nor should it be. It should be easily "evade-able" As the SF's stand now, they accomplish their job. You leave the sector or die. If your aim is to stick around and cause havoc, then you'd better be a damn good pilot. If your aim is to transit the sector (like in the Deneb run), then the SF is only a mild inconvenience.
Any beefing of the SF beyond its current stats would be breaking the game,
I agree with this. Making the SF faster or better-armed would only break things. However, the implementation of station turrets would help prevent n00b-killing near the station. Still won't help the n00b miners who are 4000m out in a station sector.
I agree with you only in part. Whilst the inter-system SF should remain as it is to maintain balance, attacking people in a capital station sector (such as Dau L-10 or Sol II H-13) should be suicide. Stations like those should absolutely murder anyone who dares to *think* about attacking Mr. Newbie. However, once they leave the sector they are fair game.
Lecter's 5th and 6th point are essentially the same, and I agree with both. "Space is Dangerous." Not just grayspace. Vendetta-Online should not be about coddling the players. It should be a crucible, a trial by fire. However, that fire should not be dealt out with spite and condescension by more experienced players preying upon new ones.
'Space is Dangerous' is a given, but there should be at least some reasonable protection at the respective nation capitals. Everywhere else should be dangerous, for certain, but some degree of safety should be warranted, limited though it be. There is not a whole lot they can do within their 'safe zone', and the ones who dare to brave leaving are the ones who would benefit the community the most.
Moving on down the thread, my wise friend Gavan said: The only glaring problem with [protecting new characters until they gain one license in any level] is the fact that anybody could create alts of no level, and go around being a considerate pain in the ass.
Aaaaah! There's the rub of it! In fact, we have some players who do that NOW. Being invulnerable to damage in your n00b-bus would definitely cause problems. Imagine 30 of these blocking access to your docking ports in a popular station. (Once we have more players online.)
No need to tell me twice; I agree whole heartedly.
Now, Gav's and Crip's ideas regarding the "extended patrol" of the SF's makes a lot of sense. There's probably a way to exploit that, though (Imagine doing this in every system prior to the Deneb run). But, their suggestion is grounded in common sense and "reality". In fact, nations should spawn bounty hunter bots that track down and kill said offender. Put yourself in the place of the Station Commander. You'd scramble your forces to take care of that annoying n00b-killa once and for all.
My feelings exactly (verbatim, even).
Shape has a good idea - regardless of whether you use "XP and Levels" or "missions completed and mission flags", you can prevent n00bs from leaving their home system until they have gained enough experience to shed their n00b-ness. Say they have to complete not only the tutorial, but also a series of other missions before they can leave. And they can't talk or listen on 100 until they're allowed to leave the home system. So, bring back system chat, please. (not sector-wide, just system-wide, and NOT galaxy-wide.) Oh - and once they gain this flag or reach this level, the govbus is no longer available. Ha.
Just because the newbies can not get out, it does not mean troublemakers can not get in. You're better off with a safe zone, frankly.
I do like the System Chat thing, though.
Now, I have a partial deterrent (not a solution) that the existing playerbase will not like.
Eliminate the capability to have alts. One paid account, one character.
Since the players behind the accounts will not want to "harm" their only character by tanking their standing at various nationspace factions, there will be a bit of a barrier to this behavior. Also - if they want to create a throwaway character to do their dastardly n00b-killing with, there will be a financial "penalty" for it - they'll have to pay for two accounts.
You're right, I do not like it. I'm not against the limitation of alts, but cutting it to just one is plain ridiculous. If you capped the number of alts at a more reasonable figure (say, 6 or 8) and added limitations to how often they could be deleted*, then you can solve the throwaway alt problem (mostly) without alienating most of the community (and this is coming from a guy who only uses one character, mind you).
*Limitation should be added so that an alt must be idle for X amount of time before it can be deleted, and that creating or deleting any other alts resets this timer.
Wrong. Plenty of experienced players can create a character that they consider a "throwaway", level them up just a bit, then tank, say, their UIT standing, and home in a TPG station in Dau. Then they could easily make runs into a nearby n00b-spawning station sector and kill them as they undock. Why this is done is a mystery to me. Perhaps it speaks to a character flaw in the player doing the n00b killing. Perhaps the n00b-killers were not hugged enough by their mothers. Regardless, it's a cry for attention (negative) in the same way that a petulant teen will act-out in a passive-aggressive manner, transferring their anger and feelings of inadequacy onto others. Most of the playerbase can restrain themselves from camping a n00b-spawning station because, well, they know that doing that is "Bad For The Game™".
If you don't care about faction hits on a throwaway character, the NFZ may as well not be there - the n00b will be dead long before the SF can kill the aggressor.
Very true, and I agree with your sentiments.
I agree with Lecter's 2nd point. A station should not care much about whether a "Hated" pilot gets 'sploded, whether inside the NFZ or not.
I remain undecided.
Regarding Lecter's 3rd point, XP hits for killing n00bs will be "un-implementable" anyway, once the existing "levels" structure is done away with and everything is based off of missions and mission flags being set. So I don't think that the devs will be bringing XP penalties back for this. Since, essentially, soon there will be no such thing as XP.
I concede that you have a point here, and I agree.
Now, about Lecter's 4th point: ... the Strike Force already provides ideal protection. Well, no, since it takes a while to launch and form up, and by that time any n00b in a station sector is dead already. They're more like a punishment force - if you fire on someone inside the NFZ, you're temp KOS. There's no difference between wounding and killing someone - the SF will be after you regardless.
A Strike Force cannot be 100% lethal, nor should it be. It should be easily "evade-able" As the SF's stand now, they accomplish their job. You leave the sector or die. If your aim is to stick around and cause havoc, then you'd better be a damn good pilot. If your aim is to transit the sector (like in the Deneb run), then the SF is only a mild inconvenience.
Any beefing of the SF beyond its current stats would be breaking the game,
I agree with this. Making the SF faster or better-armed would only break things. However, the implementation of station turrets would help prevent n00b-killing near the station. Still won't help the n00b miners who are 4000m out in a station sector.
I agree with you only in part. Whilst the inter-system SF should remain as it is to maintain balance, attacking people in a capital station sector (such as Dau L-10 or Sol II H-13) should be suicide. Stations like those should absolutely murder anyone who dares to *think* about attacking Mr. Newbie. However, once they leave the sector they are fair game.
Lecter's 5th and 6th point are essentially the same, and I agree with both. "Space is Dangerous." Not just grayspace. Vendetta-Online should not be about coddling the players. It should be a crucible, a trial by fire. However, that fire should not be dealt out with spite and condescension by more experienced players preying upon new ones.
'Space is Dangerous' is a given, but there should be at least some reasonable protection at the respective nation capitals. Everywhere else should be dangerous, for certain, but some degree of safety should be warranted, limited though it be. There is not a whole lot they can do within their 'safe zone', and the ones who dare to brave leaving are the ones who would benefit the community the most.
Moving on down the thread, my wise friend Gavan said: The only glaring problem with [protecting new characters until they gain one license in any level] is the fact that anybody could create alts of no level, and go around being a considerate pain in the ass.
Aaaaah! There's the rub of it! In fact, we have some players who do that NOW. Being invulnerable to damage in your n00b-bus would definitely cause problems. Imagine 30 of these blocking access to your docking ports in a popular station. (Once we have more players online.)
No need to tell me twice; I agree whole heartedly.
Now, Gav's and Crip's ideas regarding the "extended patrol" of the SF's makes a lot of sense. There's probably a way to exploit that, though (Imagine doing this in every system prior to the Deneb run). But, their suggestion is grounded in common sense and "reality". In fact, nations should spawn bounty hunter bots that track down and kill said offender. Put yourself in the place of the Station Commander. You'd scramble your forces to take care of that annoying n00b-killa once and for all.
My feelings exactly (verbatim, even).
Shape has a good idea - regardless of whether you use "XP and Levels" or "missions completed and mission flags", you can prevent n00bs from leaving their home system until they have gained enough experience to shed their n00b-ness. Say they have to complete not only the tutorial, but also a series of other missions before they can leave. And they can't talk or listen on 100 until they're allowed to leave the home system. So, bring back system chat, please. (not sector-wide, just system-wide, and NOT galaxy-wide.) Oh - and once they gain this flag or reach this level, the govbus is no longer available. Ha.
Just because the newbies can not get out, it does not mean troublemakers can not get in. You're better off with a safe zone, frankly.
I do like the System Chat thing, though.
Now, I have a partial deterrent (not a solution) that the existing playerbase will not like.
Eliminate the capability to have alts. One paid account, one character.
Since the players behind the accounts will not want to "harm" their only character by tanking their standing at various nationspace factions, there will be a bit of a barrier to this behavior. Also - if they want to create a throwaway character to do their dastardly n00b-killing with, there will be a financial "penalty" for it - they'll have to pay for two accounts.
You're right, I do not like it. I'm not against the limitation of alts, but cutting it to just one is plain ridiculous. If you capped the number of alts at a more reasonable figure (say, 6 or 8) and added limitations to how often they could be deleted*, then you can solve the throwaway alt problem (mostly) without alienating most of the community (and this is coming from a guy who only uses one character, mind you).
*Limitation should be added so that an alt must be idle for X amount of time before it can be deleted, and that creating or deleting any other alts resets this timer.
The sort of instant-death options under discussion here are exactly what VO is supposed to NOT have. I'm for station turrets of the gat and gauss forms, but beams are lame. Attacking around a station is supposed to be risky, i.e. dangerous but doable with skill--nothing is supposed to be per se impossible, which is what instant-hit beams would do.
I agree Lecter, but don't you think that attacking a Capital Station should be suicide for a single pilot? Until there is the foundation for large scale strikes against station's, I don't think it's necessarily realistic to stick with the status quo. Yes space is supposed to be dangerous, but not capital stations. I don't think they should be dangerous at all.
ESPECIALLY UIT stations. Danger would be very, very bad for business!
ESPECIALLY UIT stations. Danger would be very, very bad for business!
Um, no, Gav, I don't think so. As the game stands now, even a massive armada (Cap ships aside) isn't going to be suicide for a lone pilot, unless his target is hiding in said armada (hint hint, n00blets).
I'm ok with stations getting themselves some gat and gauss turrets, but those are hardly a "suicide" situtation for a light fighter on the move.
Cap stations are not special aside from being cap stations: give em gat and gauss turrets; give em more SF bots per launch; give em SF bots in different ships. But make them safe because they have to be safe and that's that? Again, note the point of VO: insta-kill upon warping in would be more honest and no more reeking of bullshit.
I'm ok with stations getting themselves some gat and gauss turrets, but those are hardly a "suicide" situtation for a light fighter on the move.
Cap stations are not special aside from being cap stations: give em gat and gauss turrets; give em more SF bots per launch; give em SF bots in different ships. But make them safe because they have to be safe and that's that? Again, note the point of VO: insta-kill upon warping in would be more honest and no more reeking of bullshit.
With what happened to Tumble's thread as soon as I posted... I think I'll just remain silent... oops. Too late?
I have opinions on this... strong ones. But I think other's opinions are even stronger and since I seem to have a talent for fanning the "flames." I really should shut-up... already.
;)
I have opinions on this... strong ones. But I think other's opinions are even stronger and since I seem to have a talent for fanning the "flames." I really should shut-up... already.
;)
What if Station guards and Marshals were a bit more... smart?
I mean, if the AI of those NPC's noticed that a hated or KOS character had warped into the sector, they would rally to the side of any friendly characters first as a defensive move, and let the spawning strike-force take care of the aggressor.
That way, if a n00b-killer zooms in and tries to take out the n00b, he's also flying into the teeth of some Law Neut fire, from the "escorting" station guard.
And - regarding the "insta-kill beam weapons" on stations, I say a BIG NO. Gauss or Gatling - fine. The point here is to make the killing of n00bs extremely difficult and heavily penalizing, not stupidly impossible.
Now, if you kill someone inside the NFZ, do you get penalized the same as if you kill them outside the NFZ? I forget. Used to be that you didn't take a permanent faction hit if you killed someone INSIDE the NFZ. Which I always thought was extremely stupid.
I mean, if the AI of those NPC's noticed that a hated or KOS character had warped into the sector, they would rally to the side of any friendly characters first as a defensive move, and let the spawning strike-force take care of the aggressor.
That way, if a n00b-killer zooms in and tries to take out the n00b, he's also flying into the teeth of some Law Neut fire, from the "escorting" station guard.
And - regarding the "insta-kill beam weapons" on stations, I say a BIG NO. Gauss or Gatling - fine. The point here is to make the killing of n00bs extremely difficult and heavily penalizing, not stupidly impossible.
Now, if you kill someone inside the NFZ, do you get penalized the same as if you kill them outside the NFZ? I forget. Used to be that you didn't take a permanent faction hit if you killed someone INSIDE the NFZ. Which I always thought was extremely stupid.
Hi there. Newbie here=p Ive been playing mmorpgs for a long time now, however. And i think you guys are looking at this wrong.
Instead of attempting to protect the newbie, thus getting them accustomed to a security that will ultimatley not last, the change itself which could be enough to drive them away when it comes. You should isntead move to ensure that none of these things are seen as negative from the very start.
As far as i can tell things just arent that expensive in this game, and you are designed to blow up and die horribly with considerable regularity. You simply need to ensure that no real frustration comes from this by getting everyone used to the fact from the very begining.
Infact, it should be a tutorial. Right after the movement tutorial but before the first combat, the newbie should undock from the station... and explode. Then have to go back and rebuy their starting ship.
You could also create a special newbie arena sector that you can only enter with the free ship. Let it be an alternative to the first bot hunting mission by letting the combat stats get up to 3 by fighting other players.
hehe, make a one time mission to go find somebody, and kill them=P
Instead of attempting to protect the newbie, thus getting them accustomed to a security that will ultimatley not last, the change itself which could be enough to drive them away when it comes. You should isntead move to ensure that none of these things are seen as negative from the very start.
As far as i can tell things just arent that expensive in this game, and you are designed to blow up and die horribly with considerable regularity. You simply need to ensure that no real frustration comes from this by getting everyone used to the fact from the very begining.
Infact, it should be a tutorial. Right after the movement tutorial but before the first combat, the newbie should undock from the station... and explode. Then have to go back and rebuy their starting ship.
You could also create a special newbie arena sector that you can only enter with the free ship. Let it be an alternative to the first bot hunting mission by letting the combat stats get up to 3 by fighting other players.
hehe, make a one time mission to go find somebody, and kill them=P
Kill teh n00b! Gauss 'is bus! Kill teh n00b! Gauss 'is bus! Kill teh n00b! Gauss 'is bus! Kill teh n00b! Gauss 'is bus!
Elysion, that is almost 100% perfect!
However
/me breathes in deeply
You must have _something_ to protect not only newbies, but regular players, from l-mines, and people who just hunt station exit-zones.
I think, that garath and Elysion both had good points. I'd like this "newbie pvp combat zone" quite a bit. Along with a Newbie tag (should be able to kill other newbies, and the tag should be per account) it would be really cool.
~z
However
/me breathes in deeply
You must have _something_ to protect not only newbies, but regular players, from l-mines, and people who just hunt station exit-zones.
I think, that garath and Elysion both had good points. I'd like this "newbie pvp combat zone" quite a bit. Along with a Newbie tag (should be able to kill other newbies, and the tag should be per account) it would be really cool.
~z
Oh yeah, that whole 'magic n00bie realm' will be pretty sweeeeeet. Fire up a trial account, drop a UC and some law neuts and adv rails in an empty sector fer teh lil' fellar, and WHAZAP! 8 hours of pure n00b killin' fun!
Best part? Only other n00bs would be able to shoot me!
BRILLIANT! *clink*
Best part? Only other n00bs would be able to shoot me!
BRILLIANT! *clink*
Heh.
....But seriously, make it so only a ship with free weapons can go into it.
AND, I am about to tell you how;
Make bot in each nation sector, that you PM as part of the pvp newbie trial. It should check your equipment, and teleport you to the magick newb level if you have all the free stuff.
Can we have it? and the newb level should have a race tube that's more of a playground. It would be awesome, and it should be in a huge roid, that you have to go through the tubes to get to, and..
It should be cool.
This would be sweet, man.
....But seriously, make it so only a ship with free weapons can go into it.
AND, I am about to tell you how;
Make bot in each nation sector, that you PM as part of the pvp newbie trial. It should check your equipment, and teleport you to the magick newb level if you have all the free stuff.
Can we have it? and the newb level should have a race tube that's more of a playground. It would be awesome, and it should be in a huge roid, that you have to go through the tubes to get to, and..
It should be cool.
This would be sweet, man.
Like small, stupid rodents in a cage... I like it.
Well I doubt that will yield much protection from seasoned players like Lecter and Tumble or even average players like myself. Even with a stock gov bus they could still beat the hell out of the newbs on an even playing field, especially if they work together.
MAGIC NEWB PROTECTION IS LAME.
I think the sole newb to post in this thread is right about making sure the newb understands that he will die MANY, MANY, MANY times in this game. It's hard to defend space mostly cause it's freaking huge. Attackers can hide all over the place and anything short of lame insta-killing won't be able to stop somebody from grabbing a apamrag and launching a pile of missiles that a newb hasn't even seen before. Better solution, prepare the newb to lose lots of ships in VO. Despite what the Makchuga carebears think, non consensual PVP is supposed to be a part this game.
As for l-mines. It's quite possible to sink them far enough below the surface of a station or asteroid that energy weapons can't hit them. But flares can still blow them up, especially seeker missiles. It should be a simple matter to have an extra station guard fly around armed with a pair of seeker missiles to blow mines up. Or they could simply have an l-mine trigger a couple aerna seekers to come charging at the mines.
MAGIC NEWB PROTECTION IS LAME.
I think the sole newb to post in this thread is right about making sure the newb understands that he will die MANY, MANY, MANY times in this game. It's hard to defend space mostly cause it's freaking huge. Attackers can hide all over the place and anything short of lame insta-killing won't be able to stop somebody from grabbing a apamrag and launching a pile of missiles that a newb hasn't even seen before. Better solution, prepare the newb to lose lots of ships in VO. Despite what the Makchuga carebears think, non consensual PVP is supposed to be a part this game.
As for l-mines. It's quite possible to sink them far enough below the surface of a station or asteroid that energy weapons can't hit them. But flares can still blow them up, especially seeker missiles. It should be a simple matter to have an extra station guard fly around armed with a pair of seeker missiles to blow mines up. Or they could simply have an l-mine trigger a couple aerna seekers to come charging at the mines.
Despite what the Makchuga carebears think, non consensual PVP is supposed to be a part this game.
Best line EVER! I completely agree, and that's what this sounds like: And attempt to get rid of an element of the game they don't like, but without actually saying so.
Right now, the SF is borked, and half the time doesn't even launch, especially at n00bs stations in Arta. The AI is dumb, so they rarely manage to kill anyone, and the SF is disorganized and slow. In this circumstance, traders are no safer than n00bs or anyone else.
Best line EVER! I completely agree, and that's what this sounds like: And attempt to get rid of an element of the game they don't like, but without actually saying so.
Right now, the SF is borked, and half the time doesn't even launch, especially at n00bs stations in Arta. The AI is dumb, so they rarely manage to kill anyone, and the SF is disorganized and slow. In this circumstance, traders are no safer than n00bs or anyone else.
It was my intention that experienced players would also go to the newbie area with the free ship and guns. The thing is that there should be no possible rewards while in this area other than the raising of the newbies combat stats up to 3 (no kills or deaths are counted there, and nothing goes towards that bus hunter thing). This would mean that while people would visit this area, they wouldn't stay there all the time.
Perhaps give anyone with a stat over 8 or so a special flag in this area, marking them to the newbies. Then you could have swarms of newbies attacking them! But they could just come with an alt, so it would be more a choice to be the target than somthing to keep them out.
Remember we are looking at a time when there will be alot more players. There will not only be many newbies in the newbie area, but also many people elsewhere, and probably more things to do.
The idea is psychological more than anything else. The purpose is not necessarily to make the newbie 'on even grounds', but rather to give them a place to go and present it in such a way that getting killed there does absolutely nothing at all to scare them off.
The best way to learn is to get blown up a few hundred times =D
I've played a lot of mmos, some i really get bothered when i die, others i dont... Presentation is everything. Get people used to and the idea and they will realize is really not that big of a deal, because it isn't. It only seems like it is because we naturally instinctively associate things like getting killed as bad ^_^.
Perhaps give anyone with a stat over 8 or so a special flag in this area, marking them to the newbies. Then you could have swarms of newbies attacking them! But they could just come with an alt, so it would be more a choice to be the target than somthing to keep them out.
Remember we are looking at a time when there will be alot more players. There will not only be many newbies in the newbie area, but also many people elsewhere, and probably more things to do.
The idea is psychological more than anything else. The purpose is not necessarily to make the newbie 'on even grounds', but rather to give them a place to go and present it in such a way that getting killed there does absolutely nothing at all to scare them off.
The best way to learn is to get blown up a few hundred times =D
I've played a lot of mmos, some i really get bothered when i die, others i dont... Presentation is everything. Get people used to and the idea and they will realize is really not that big of a deal, because it isn't. It only seems like it is because we naturally instinctively associate things like getting killed as bad ^_^.
I really like this Elysion guy. To bad he's gonna end up in sigma...
:(
Poor dude.
Poor dude.