Forums » Suggestions
As most people know, new players are just as important to an MMO as the older players that have been around for a while. So, when VO is released to the public, one of the most important things that needs to happen to ensure that Vendetta is successful is the retention of the incoming new players.
Let's look at a few examples (yes, slightly copy/pasted from each other, gimme a break, I'm lazy :P):
Example 1: Newbie X, let's call him "Bobindashadows", signs up for his trial account, downloads the client, creates a character (we'll say Bobindashadows' character is UIT because most of the recent newbies have been UIT), and logs in. First thing he does is click through the mandatory interface tutorial, purchases himself a shiny new EC-89 and outfits it with a spankin' new Free Powercell and Government-Issue Plasma Cannon. He does what he's told at the end of the interface tutorial and starts up the first tutorial mission.
Bobindashadows undocks, and is following the instructions dutifully until... *BLAM!* the Dread Pie-rat Tarrrball blasts him within the station's No Fire Zone. Bobindashadows states the customary "WTF!" over 100, proceeds to rant and rave in his own fashion about Tarrrball's sexual preferences and intelligence level. He is told (probably several times by a few different people) that this is normal behavior for Tarrrball and there isn't much that can be done about it, and that he'll either have to live with it and continue playing (which will probably mean getting killed more while he's trying desperately to take the tutorial), recreate his character in another nation that has safer capitol sectors, or stop playing entirely. Bobindashadows may try the tutorial again, but chances are he'll just get blasted by Tarrrball again and will give up in frustation and leave, never to be seen again.
Example 2: Newbie Y, let's call him "Cyanide Snackpack", signs up for his trial account, downloads the client, creates a UIT character, and logs in. First thing he does is click through the mandatory interface tutorial, purchases himself a shiny new EC-89 and outfits it with a sweet Free Powercell and Government-Issue Plasma Cannon fresh off the market. He does, as any eager-to-learn newbie would, what he's told at the end of the interface tutorial and starts up the first tutorial mission.
Cyanide Snackpack undocks, and is following the instructions dutifully until... *BLAM!* the Dread Pie-rat Pharrrmacist blasts him within the station's No Fire Zone. Cyanide Snackpack states the customary "WTF!" over 100, and may or may not proceed to rant and rave in his own fashion about Pharrrmacist's sexual preferences and intelligence level. He is told (probably several times by a few different people) that this is normal behavior for Pharrrmacist and there isn't much that can be done about it, and that he'll either have to live with it and continue playing (which will probably mean getting killed more while he's trying desperately to take the tutorial), recreate his character in another nation that has safer capitol sectors, or stop playing entirely. Cyanide Snackpack decides to bite the bullet and keep playing anyway just to get even with Pharrrmacist.
---------
Now, while a large number of the new players over the past few months appears to be staying and subscribing (still not a majority, though), when the game goes live, there are going to be many more of these newbies, and most of them are going to have higher and/or different expectations regarding consensual v. non-consensual PvP.
If the first example given above happens too much, people will spread the word around that "Vendetta Online isn't friendly to newbs; you'll get ganked the second you start a new character and there's nothing you can do about it and no way to avoid it, so don't waste your time with this game" or something similar.
The second example is a rare case. It is not the normal response. Consider it what programmers would call an "edge case". It doesn't happen often, but it's worth noting that it happens.
That leaves us with a need to combat the events in the first example so that people aren't leaving because they were attacked when they were trying to learn how to play the game. It's been suggested before, in a variety of ways, and I want to open a discussion for how best to combat the issue of newbie retention.
One possible solution is to reinstitute the old XP hit. This was exploitable, and for that reason it was removed. Before it can be put back in, the exploits need to be fixed.
Another is to add "PvP flags" like some other MMOs have. In VO's case, perhaps a "PvP immunity" flag that makes newbies incapable of damaging and being damaged by other players. Have the flag deactivate/disappear when the character (or just one character on the account, perhaps, but it's not like that'd prevent much exploiting that I can see at the moment) reaches a prerequisite level (say, a license level of 3 in any of Combat, Light, Heavy or Trade/Commerce) or when the newbie decides that he or she wants it to turn off, giving them a warning first that once they remove the flag, they can never get it back. This way, a newbie can fire at and be fired upon by another player without taking or dealing damage, and after a time the protection fades so the player is forced into VO's open PvP. Perhaps this flag could be bypassed with /duel, so that two newbies, or a student and his/her mentor could duel each other in a more real combat situation. Without a duel, it'd just be a practice joust--no damage, no deaths.
The only issue I can think of with that is that the warning about that flag absolutely must be explicit and clear that once it is removed it does not come back.
Comments, additions, other ideas/suggestions? If you have a flame to make, by the way, go out into your backyard and start a bonfire. This isn't the place for it.
Let's look at a few examples (yes, slightly copy/pasted from each other, gimme a break, I'm lazy :P):
Example 1: Newbie X, let's call him "Bobindashadows", signs up for his trial account, downloads the client, creates a character (we'll say Bobindashadows' character is UIT because most of the recent newbies have been UIT), and logs in. First thing he does is click through the mandatory interface tutorial, purchases himself a shiny new EC-89 and outfits it with a spankin' new Free Powercell and Government-Issue Plasma Cannon. He does what he's told at the end of the interface tutorial and starts up the first tutorial mission.
Bobindashadows undocks, and is following the instructions dutifully until... *BLAM!* the Dread Pie-rat Tarrrball blasts him within the station's No Fire Zone. Bobindashadows states the customary "WTF!" over 100, proceeds to rant and rave in his own fashion about Tarrrball's sexual preferences and intelligence level. He is told (probably several times by a few different people) that this is normal behavior for Tarrrball and there isn't much that can be done about it, and that he'll either have to live with it and continue playing (which will probably mean getting killed more while he's trying desperately to take the tutorial), recreate his character in another nation that has safer capitol sectors, or stop playing entirely. Bobindashadows may try the tutorial again, but chances are he'll just get blasted by Tarrrball again and will give up in frustation and leave, never to be seen again.
Example 2: Newbie Y, let's call him "Cyanide Snackpack", signs up for his trial account, downloads the client, creates a UIT character, and logs in. First thing he does is click through the mandatory interface tutorial, purchases himself a shiny new EC-89 and outfits it with a sweet Free Powercell and Government-Issue Plasma Cannon fresh off the market. He does, as any eager-to-learn newbie would, what he's told at the end of the interface tutorial and starts up the first tutorial mission.
Cyanide Snackpack undocks, and is following the instructions dutifully until... *BLAM!* the Dread Pie-rat Pharrrmacist blasts him within the station's No Fire Zone. Cyanide Snackpack states the customary "WTF!" over 100, and may or may not proceed to rant and rave in his own fashion about Pharrrmacist's sexual preferences and intelligence level. He is told (probably several times by a few different people) that this is normal behavior for Pharrrmacist and there isn't much that can be done about it, and that he'll either have to live with it and continue playing (which will probably mean getting killed more while he's trying desperately to take the tutorial), recreate his character in another nation that has safer capitol sectors, or stop playing entirely. Cyanide Snackpack decides to bite the bullet and keep playing anyway just to get even with Pharrrmacist.
---------
Now, while a large number of the new players over the past few months appears to be staying and subscribing (still not a majority, though), when the game goes live, there are going to be many more of these newbies, and most of them are going to have higher and/or different expectations regarding consensual v. non-consensual PvP.
If the first example given above happens too much, people will spread the word around that "Vendetta Online isn't friendly to newbs; you'll get ganked the second you start a new character and there's nothing you can do about it and no way to avoid it, so don't waste your time with this game" or something similar.
The second example is a rare case. It is not the normal response. Consider it what programmers would call an "edge case". It doesn't happen often, but it's worth noting that it happens.
That leaves us with a need to combat the events in the first example so that people aren't leaving because they were attacked when they were trying to learn how to play the game. It's been suggested before, in a variety of ways, and I want to open a discussion for how best to combat the issue of newbie retention.
One possible solution is to reinstitute the old XP hit. This was exploitable, and for that reason it was removed. Before it can be put back in, the exploits need to be fixed.
Another is to add "PvP flags" like some other MMOs have. In VO's case, perhaps a "PvP immunity" flag that makes newbies incapable of damaging and being damaged by other players. Have the flag deactivate/disappear when the character (or just one character on the account, perhaps, but it's not like that'd prevent much exploiting that I can see at the moment) reaches a prerequisite level (say, a license level of 3 in any of Combat, Light, Heavy or Trade/Commerce) or when the newbie decides that he or she wants it to turn off, giving them a warning first that once they remove the flag, they can never get it back. This way, a newbie can fire at and be fired upon by another player without taking or dealing damage, and after a time the protection fades so the player is forced into VO's open PvP. Perhaps this flag could be bypassed with /duel, so that two newbies, or a student and his/her mentor could duel each other in a more real combat situation. Without a duel, it'd just be a practice joust--no damage, no deaths.
The only issue I can think of with that is that the warning about that flag absolutely must be explicit and clear that once it is removed it does not come back.
Comments, additions, other ideas/suggestions? If you have a flame to make, by the way, go out into your backyard and start a bonfire. This isn't the place for it.
Bobindashadows is a noob who really needs to learn how to write a simple GUI frontend to a simple command-line tool without turning it into a frelling RUNAWAY-WRITE DISK KILLING MACHINE!
-:sigma.SB
-:sigma.SB
(1) A NFZ means just that. If X shoots Y inside the NFZ, then X has consequences to face. Those do NOT include Y taking matters into his/her own paws and shooting Y while Y is inside the NFZ. No Change Needed Here.
(2) While (1) is logically correct, I support a change that makes the NFZ protections apply only to a pilot with -599 standing or higher. Thus, X is -600 with UIT, and shoots Y right at the station in Dau. Y fires back, hitting X inside the NFZ. The SF does not launch. Change that Retains the "No Special Safe Zones" Ideal
(3) XP hits are pretty irrelevant. We all have lots more XP than we'll use anytime soon. Abuse Potential Outweighs Any Protection Provided.
(4) No pilot, at any time, in any place... is ever to be "safe". This is a non-negotiable ideal as far as I can tell. It is a Good Thing. As such, the Strike Force already provides ideal protection. The Seekers are faster than any other ship in the game and do 1 hit kill damage. The Vults are excellent at killing anything that sits too still. No, the SF is not 100% lethal against running targets: this, too, is a Good Thing. The SF is very much like a group of players: excellent at holding a sector, denying hated or KOS pilots the free use thereof... but has trouble with hit and run tactics. Any beefing of the SF beyond its current stats would be breaking the game, giving out magic items and abilities to the bots, thereby making their protected areas "safe" zones. Keep the SF Real, Not Magic.
(5) No pilot, at any time, in any place... is ever to be "safe". PvP Flags are the epitome of special n00b leveling grounds. This idea is appropriate for a game like WoW or something. Not VO: even venturing into the roid fields to shoot your first Orun should carry all the risks possible in the game. PvP Flags Suck.
(6) VO's nature is CLEARLY stated to ALL who create an account: No. Safe. Zones. Those who fail to grasp the meaning of this, or who dislike the application of this rule, are perhaps not such a great loss.
(2) While (1) is logically correct, I support a change that makes the NFZ protections apply only to a pilot with -599 standing or higher. Thus, X is -600 with UIT, and shoots Y right at the station in Dau. Y fires back, hitting X inside the NFZ. The SF does not launch. Change that Retains the "No Special Safe Zones" Ideal
(3) XP hits are pretty irrelevant. We all have lots more XP than we'll use anytime soon. Abuse Potential Outweighs Any Protection Provided.
(4) No pilot, at any time, in any place... is ever to be "safe". This is a non-negotiable ideal as far as I can tell. It is a Good Thing. As such, the Strike Force already provides ideal protection. The Seekers are faster than any other ship in the game and do 1 hit kill damage. The Vults are excellent at killing anything that sits too still. No, the SF is not 100% lethal against running targets: this, too, is a Good Thing. The SF is very much like a group of players: excellent at holding a sector, denying hated or KOS pilots the free use thereof... but has trouble with hit and run tactics. Any beefing of the SF beyond its current stats would be breaking the game, giving out magic items and abilities to the bots, thereby making their protected areas "safe" zones. Keep the SF Real, Not Magic.
(5) No pilot, at any time, in any place... is ever to be "safe". PvP Flags are the epitome of special n00b leveling grounds. This idea is appropriate for a game like WoW or something. Not VO: even venturing into the roid fields to shoot your first Orun should carry all the risks possible in the game. PvP Flags Suck.
(6) VO's nature is CLEARLY stated to ALL who create an account: No. Safe. Zones. Those who fail to grasp the meaning of this, or who dislike the application of this rule, are perhaps not such a great loss.
I think that maybe newbies should be immune to damage from other players until they gain a single license level (of anything), by that point, they should have at least some knowledge of how the game works, how to move your ship, how to look around, etc.
Nothing sucks more than to be thrown into a fairly complicated game, and be killed before you've even figured out how to get out of the sector, or even before you've figured out that there are six axes of movement!
If a newbie hasn't figured out anything by the time they've gotten one license, then vendetta might not be the game for them. But if they have to have one license before they can be killed by other players, then they will at least have been able to get a taste of what the game has to offer before they are in any real danger. And one license level is quick enough to achieve that it's not as if they're under special protection for all that long.
Nothing sucks more than to be thrown into a fairly complicated game, and be killed before you've even figured out how to get out of the sector, or even before you've figured out that there are six axes of movement!
If a newbie hasn't figured out anything by the time they've gotten one license, then vendetta might not be the game for them. But if they have to have one license before they can be killed by other players, then they will at least have been able to get a taste of what the game has to offer before they are in any real danger. And one license level is quick enough to achieve that it's not as if they're under special protection for all that long.
The only glaring problem with that Crippled is the fact that anybody could create alts of no level, and go around being a considerate pain in the ass. Now of course, you might have meant to say this would apply to any "account", but it still falls flat. Anyone can create a trial account.
I personally think a mix of what you point out (although this would only apply in Nation Space, soon as you leave protected space all immunity is gone), and a Strike Force system that's strength is relative to how close it is to any Given Capital, would work best. Don't try and tell me that some noob killer like Lecter or Yoda should really be able to skirt the protections provided by the military in a capital system. Not only would they (the SF) be brutally effective, but they would not simply turn around and dock every time said pk'er jumped out. They would assume patrols for at least a couple hours, if not maintaining persistent presence at all times.
As I said, I think said SF strength should be relative. Capital systems having a virtually inescapable strike force (far greater than the ones that are in place now), and peripheral stations having the ones that are in place. The wandering versions should fall somewhere in between, although based on the last ones I observed, I think they still need a buff. I don't think a good pvp'er should be able to hang out and fight them until they get bored. I think they should instill immediate fear in the vets, and instant death for the noobs.
I personally think a mix of what you point out (although this would only apply in Nation Space, soon as you leave protected space all immunity is gone), and a Strike Force system that's strength is relative to how close it is to any Given Capital, would work best. Don't try and tell me that some noob killer like Lecter or Yoda should really be able to skirt the protections provided by the military in a capital system. Not only would they (the SF) be brutally effective, but they would not simply turn around and dock every time said pk'er jumped out. They would assume patrols for at least a couple hours, if not maintaining persistent presence at all times.
As I said, I think said SF strength should be relative. Capital systems having a virtually inescapable strike force (far greater than the ones that are in place now), and peripheral stations having the ones that are in place. The wandering versions should fall somewhere in between, although based on the last ones I observed, I think they still need a buff. I don't think a good pvp'er should be able to hang out and fight them until they get bored. I think they should instill immediate fear in the vets, and instant death for the noobs.
Well if the level 0/0/0/0/0 player can neither damage, nor be damaged by other players, then they can be annoying, but by no means destructive.
I guess they could go around shooting people in busses, and I know that we have one player who does this (do I really have to name him?...), and he even went so far as to have his licenses removed if he did gain something, but considering that he was the only player who did that consistently for a long period of time, I don't think we have anything to worry about.
Aside from shooting blanks, the only thing that a new account/character could do is spam 100. Yay.
At the same time, though, I think that yea, if there has been a violent violation of the NFZ, then the strike force should patrol the area for at least an hour. Maybe the type of station would dictate the type and size of strike force. If the offending player jumps in during that period, then no matter their faction standing, the SF would deploy immediately. Capital stations would be able to deploy fairly large strike forces, but a small border station might only be able to deploy a couple fighters. So this would make it easier to attack repeatedly on the border stations, but that would make sense anyway, wouldn't it?
So that'll let pirates attack newbies, but it'd be extremely difficult for it to become griefing, unless of course they follow the player around attacking them at each station. But that actually takes work. Otherwise yea, the pirate would have to kill the player while being chased by SFs, or would have to wait until the SF patrol finishes up.
I guess they could go around shooting people in busses, and I know that we have one player who does this (do I really have to name him?...), and he even went so far as to have his licenses removed if he did gain something, but considering that he was the only player who did that consistently for a long period of time, I don't think we have anything to worry about.
Aside from shooting blanks, the only thing that a new account/character could do is spam 100. Yay.
At the same time, though, I think that yea, if there has been a violent violation of the NFZ, then the strike force should patrol the area for at least an hour. Maybe the type of station would dictate the type and size of strike force. If the offending player jumps in during that period, then no matter their faction standing, the SF would deploy immediately. Capital stations would be able to deploy fairly large strike forces, but a small border station might only be able to deploy a couple fighters. So this would make it easier to attack repeatedly on the border stations, but that would make sense anyway, wouldn't it?
So that'll let pirates attack newbies, but it'd be extremely difficult for it to become griefing, unless of course they follow the player around attacking them at each station. But that actually takes work. Otherwise yea, the pirate would have to kill the player while being chased by SFs, or would have to wait until the SF patrol finishes up.
Well, why not just limit their annoyingness to a single system?
They're not allowed to "Gain WH clearance" until they reach that level.
With this, then you could do one of two things:
1) You implement Friendly Fire with all the other players until they reach some level.
2) You make security in that system incredibly high, not your hit and run kind of environment
While 2 is more in line with keeping the danger up, I don't really see much issue with 1) if the person is restricted to 1 system.
The functionality for this already exists. They restrict WH access for 60 seconds after you jump. So specialized restrictions doesn't seem too hard.
They're not allowed to "Gain WH clearance" until they reach that level.
With this, then you could do one of two things:
1) You implement Friendly Fire with all the other players until they reach some level.
2) You make security in that system incredibly high, not your hit and run kind of environment
While 2 is more in line with keeping the danger up, I don't really see much issue with 1) if the person is restricted to 1 system.
The functionality for this already exists. They restrict WH access for 60 seconds after you jump. So specialized restrictions doesn't seem too hard.
*sigh* can someone please find that blasted Friendly Fire thread I posted in earlier? and I mean the third or fourth one back, because God knows we've discussed this enough times...
Nice how everyone is looking at the finger, and not at the moon pointed by MS.
You want to finish translating that bastardized metaphor into english there, Syylk?
And pointing out the glaring flaws in Manharu's proposal isn't a finger, regardless of whatever the fuck it means.
[EDIT]Someone explain how the armed response would be "brutally effective" beyond what it is now. More vultures? More seekers? Eh meh.
Faster seekers? Faster vultures? May as well disavow the whole "nowhere is safe" mantra and just admit that some areas are protected by magic stuff that isn't available in-game and is only in place for protected zones. In that case, grow some balls and admit what you're doing... make it an instant /oper kill for rule-breakers and just stop pretending you want a realistic game environment FFS.
And pointing out the glaring flaws in Manharu's proposal isn't a finger, regardless of whatever the fuck it means.
[EDIT]Someone explain how the armed response would be "brutally effective" beyond what it is now. More vultures? More seekers? Eh meh.
Faster seekers? Faster vultures? May as well disavow the whole "nowhere is safe" mantra and just admit that some areas are protected by magic stuff that isn't available in-game and is only in place for protected zones. In that case, grow some balls and admit what you're doing... make it an instant /oper kill for rule-breakers and just stop pretending you want a realistic game environment FFS.
I was just thinking that KOS people should be /oper killed ;)
Anyway, Ships slowed down. THis was a decision made by the Devs. I respect it. Sad side effect is that all the high end ships now go relatively the same speed which is around 220 to 210 meters a sec. The result of this is well, things that used to be good at chasing now just suck.
I'm for a PvP Flag dealy.
I'm for what gavan says as far as realism goes but as far as gameplay, I think the Strike Forces would still be easy to avoid.
So here's my suggestion:
Institute a PvP Flag, toggle-able (ie once, like Miharu said) or until they hit Combat 4, whichever happens first. This protects the newbies. As much as you may hate it Lecter, eventuallly, newbies will stop coming, just a matter of how soon. So what if they're in a Hornet instead of a freebus? Is it that much harder to kill em for you?
As for the Strike Forces, deploy them ahead of time at wormholes for God's sake. If someone is Kill On Sight, that should mean "Deploy every damn ship you have and KILL HIM". Deploy strike forces to wormholes, put the nation or "region" on alert. Hell, let me even break down the "regions" as I see em:
Uit:
Left - Arta Caelestis, Dau and Azek
Right - Nyrius and Verasi
Serco:
Left - Geira Rutilus and Betheshee
Middle - Sol II and Dantia
Right - Rhamus, Pyronis, Initros and Helios Outpost
Itani:
Left - Deneb, Eo and Cantus
Middle - Metana, Setalli Shinas, Itan and Pherona
Right - Artana Aquilis, Divinia, Jallik and Edras Outpost
For the record, just for lecter, I'm a newb "hugger". I'd rather new players get a chance to learn the game and blast them later when they feel good and ready to try PvP then kill em for kicks.
Anyway, Ships slowed down. THis was a decision made by the Devs. I respect it. Sad side effect is that all the high end ships now go relatively the same speed which is around 220 to 210 meters a sec. The result of this is well, things that used to be good at chasing now just suck.
I'm for a PvP Flag dealy.
I'm for what gavan says as far as realism goes but as far as gameplay, I think the Strike Forces would still be easy to avoid.
So here's my suggestion:
Institute a PvP Flag, toggle-able (ie once, like Miharu said) or until they hit Combat 4, whichever happens first. This protects the newbies. As much as you may hate it Lecter, eventuallly, newbies will stop coming, just a matter of how soon. So what if they're in a Hornet instead of a freebus? Is it that much harder to kill em for you?
As for the Strike Forces, deploy them ahead of time at wormholes for God's sake. If someone is Kill On Sight, that should mean "Deploy every damn ship you have and KILL HIM". Deploy strike forces to wormholes, put the nation or "region" on alert. Hell, let me even break down the "regions" as I see em:
Uit:
Left - Arta Caelestis, Dau and Azek
Right - Nyrius and Verasi
Serco:
Left - Geira Rutilus and Betheshee
Middle - Sol II and Dantia
Right - Rhamus, Pyronis, Initros and Helios Outpost
Itani:
Left - Deneb, Eo and Cantus
Middle - Metana, Setalli Shinas, Itan and Pherona
Right - Artana Aquilis, Divinia, Jallik and Edras Outpost
For the record, just for lecter, I'm a newb "hugger". I'd rather new players get a chance to learn the game and blast them later when they feel good and ready to try PvP then kill em for kicks.
Hehe. So I'm an "edge case". Cool.
Miharu said:Now, while a large number of the new players over the past few months appears to be staying and subscribing (still not a majority, though),
How do you know this, Miha? You got some kind of insider info? Share!
Lecter said: (1) A NFZ means just that. If X shoots Y inside the NFZ, then X has consequences to face. Those do NOT include Y taking matters into his/her own paws and shooting Y while Y is inside the NFZ. No Change Needed Here.
Wrong. Plenty of experienced players can create a character that they consider a "throwaway", level them up just a bit, then tank, say, their UIT standing, and home in a TPG station in Dau. Then they could easily make runs into a nearby n00b-spawning station sector and kill them as they undock. Why this is done is a mystery to me. Perhaps it speaks to a character flaw in the player doing the n00b killing. Perhaps the n00b-killers were not hugged enough by their mothers. Regardless, it's a cry for attention (negative) in the same way that a petulant teen will act-out in a passive-aggressive manner, transferring their anger and feelings of inadequacy onto others. Most of the playerbase can restrain themselves from camping a n00b-spawning station because, well, they know that doing that is "Bad For The Game™".
If you don't care about faction hits on a throwaway character, the NFZ may as well not be there - the n00b will be dead long before the SF can kill the aggressor.
I agree with Lecter's 2nd point. A station should not care much about whether a "Hated" pilot gets 'sploded, whether inside the NFZ or not.
Regarding Lecter's 3rd point, XP hits for killing n00bs will be "un-implementable" anyway, once the existing "levels" structure is done away with and everything is based off of missions and mission flags being set. So I don't think that the devs wil be bringing XP penalties back for this. Since, essentially, soon there will be no such thing as XP.
Now, about Lecter's 4th point: ... the Strike Force already provides ideal protection. Well, no, since it takes a while to launch and form up, and by that time any n00b in a station sector is dead already. They're more like a punishment force - if you fire on someone inside the NFZ, you're temp KOS. There's no difference between wounding and killing someone - the SF will be after you regardless.
A Strike Force cannot be 100% lethal, nor should it be. It should be easily "evade-able" As the SF's stand now, they accomplish their job. You leave the sector or die. If your aim is to stick around and cause havok, then you'd better be a damn good pilot. If your aim is to transit the sector (like in the Deneb run), then the SF is only a mild inconvenience.
Any beefing of the SF beyond its current stats would be breaking the game,
I agree with this. Making the SF faster or better-armed would only break things. However, the implementation of station turrets would help prevent n00b-killing near the station. Still won't help the n00b miners who are 4000m out in a station sector.
Lecter's 5th and 6th point are essentially the same, and I agree with both. "Space is Dangerous." Not just grayspace. Vendetta-Online should not be about coddling the players. It should be a crucible, a trial by fire. However, that fire should not be dealt out with spite and condescension by more experienced players preying upon new ones.
Moving on down the thread, my wise friend Gavan said: The only glaring problem with [protecting new characters until they gain one license in any level] is the fact that anybody could create alts of no level, and go around being a considerate pain in the ass.
Aaaaah! There's the rub of it! In fact, we have some players who do that NOW. Being invulnerable to damage in your n00b-bus would definitely cause problems. Imagine 30 of these blocking access to your docking ports in a popular station. (Once we have more players online.)
Now, Gav's and Crip's ideas regarding the "extended patrol" of the SF's makes a lot of sense. There's probably a way to exploit that, though (Imagine doing this in every system prior to the Deneb run). But, their suggestion is grounded in common sense and "reality". In fact, nations should spawn bounty hunter bots that track down and kill said offender. Put yourself in the place of the Station Commander. You'd scramble your forces to take care of that annoying n00b-killa once and for all.
Shape has a good idea - regardless of whether you use "XP and Levels" or "missions completed and mission flags", you can prevent n00bs from leaving their home system until they have gained enough experience to shed their n00b-ness. Say they have to complete not only the tutorial, but also a series of other missions before they can leave. And they can't talk or listen on 100 until they're allowed to leave the home system. So, bring back system chat, please. (not sector-wide, just system-wide, and NOT galaxy-wide.) Oh - and once they gain this flag or reach this level, the govbus is no longer available. Ha.
Now, I have a partial deterrent (not a solution) that the existing playerbase will not like.
Eliminate the capability to have alts. One paid account, one character.
Since the players behind the accounts will not want to "harm" their only character by tanking their standing at various nationspace factions, there will be a bit of a barrier to this behavior. Also - if they want to create a throwaway character to do their dastardly n00b-killing with, there will be a financial "penalty" for it - they'll have to pay for two accounts.
So, the solution to prevent n00b-killing is:
1) Good, accurate station turrets, ensuring that killing n00bs in the NFZ will also result in one death for the aggressor.
2) A realistic SF that sticks around for a while once you've left or died, and for more grevious offenders, stalks you until you leave the system, or even nation space.
3) Expanded mission system that puts n00bs through a series of tests and trials before they can talk (or even SEE) open channels like 100, or leave their home system. Perhaps the last "mission" sets you up with a NPC griefer/camper type of pilot that you must kill. Which will teach you how to avoid such people out in unprotected space.
4) One ingame character per account.
Those 4 things would definitely put a serious dent in the n00b-killing industry.
But, as far as things that should be worked on NOW, doing these things is pretty far behind the Deliverator fix, the economy, the improved tutorial, and the friendly fire issue. In fact, perhaps this is a logical "next step" after the friendly-fire issue is fixed.
Miharu said:Now, while a large number of the new players over the past few months appears to be staying and subscribing (still not a majority, though),
How do you know this, Miha? You got some kind of insider info? Share!
Lecter said: (1) A NFZ means just that. If X shoots Y inside the NFZ, then X has consequences to face. Those do NOT include Y taking matters into his/her own paws and shooting Y while Y is inside the NFZ. No Change Needed Here.
Wrong. Plenty of experienced players can create a character that they consider a "throwaway", level them up just a bit, then tank, say, their UIT standing, and home in a TPG station in Dau. Then they could easily make runs into a nearby n00b-spawning station sector and kill them as they undock. Why this is done is a mystery to me. Perhaps it speaks to a character flaw in the player doing the n00b killing. Perhaps the n00b-killers were not hugged enough by their mothers. Regardless, it's a cry for attention (negative) in the same way that a petulant teen will act-out in a passive-aggressive manner, transferring their anger and feelings of inadequacy onto others. Most of the playerbase can restrain themselves from camping a n00b-spawning station because, well, they know that doing that is "Bad For The Game™".
If you don't care about faction hits on a throwaway character, the NFZ may as well not be there - the n00b will be dead long before the SF can kill the aggressor.
I agree with Lecter's 2nd point. A station should not care much about whether a "Hated" pilot gets 'sploded, whether inside the NFZ or not.
Regarding Lecter's 3rd point, XP hits for killing n00bs will be "un-implementable" anyway, once the existing "levels" structure is done away with and everything is based off of missions and mission flags being set. So I don't think that the devs wil be bringing XP penalties back for this. Since, essentially, soon there will be no such thing as XP.
Now, about Lecter's 4th point: ... the Strike Force already provides ideal protection. Well, no, since it takes a while to launch and form up, and by that time any n00b in a station sector is dead already. They're more like a punishment force - if you fire on someone inside the NFZ, you're temp KOS. There's no difference between wounding and killing someone - the SF will be after you regardless.
A Strike Force cannot be 100% lethal, nor should it be. It should be easily "evade-able" As the SF's stand now, they accomplish their job. You leave the sector or die. If your aim is to stick around and cause havok, then you'd better be a damn good pilot. If your aim is to transit the sector (like in the Deneb run), then the SF is only a mild inconvenience.
Any beefing of the SF beyond its current stats would be breaking the game,
I agree with this. Making the SF faster or better-armed would only break things. However, the implementation of station turrets would help prevent n00b-killing near the station. Still won't help the n00b miners who are 4000m out in a station sector.
Lecter's 5th and 6th point are essentially the same, and I agree with both. "Space is Dangerous." Not just grayspace. Vendetta-Online should not be about coddling the players. It should be a crucible, a trial by fire. However, that fire should not be dealt out with spite and condescension by more experienced players preying upon new ones.
Moving on down the thread, my wise friend Gavan said: The only glaring problem with [protecting new characters until they gain one license in any level] is the fact that anybody could create alts of no level, and go around being a considerate pain in the ass.
Aaaaah! There's the rub of it! In fact, we have some players who do that NOW. Being invulnerable to damage in your n00b-bus would definitely cause problems. Imagine 30 of these blocking access to your docking ports in a popular station. (Once we have more players online.)
Now, Gav's and Crip's ideas regarding the "extended patrol" of the SF's makes a lot of sense. There's probably a way to exploit that, though (Imagine doing this in every system prior to the Deneb run). But, their suggestion is grounded in common sense and "reality". In fact, nations should spawn bounty hunter bots that track down and kill said offender. Put yourself in the place of the Station Commander. You'd scramble your forces to take care of that annoying n00b-killa once and for all.
Shape has a good idea - regardless of whether you use "XP and Levels" or "missions completed and mission flags", you can prevent n00bs from leaving their home system until they have gained enough experience to shed their n00b-ness. Say they have to complete not only the tutorial, but also a series of other missions before they can leave. And they can't talk or listen on 100 until they're allowed to leave the home system. So, bring back system chat, please. (not sector-wide, just system-wide, and NOT galaxy-wide.) Oh - and once they gain this flag or reach this level, the govbus is no longer available. Ha.
Now, I have a partial deterrent (not a solution) that the existing playerbase will not like.
Eliminate the capability to have alts. One paid account, one character.
Since the players behind the accounts will not want to "harm" their only character by tanking their standing at various nationspace factions, there will be a bit of a barrier to this behavior. Also - if they want to create a throwaway character to do their dastardly n00b-killing with, there will be a financial "penalty" for it - they'll have to pay for two accounts.
So, the solution to prevent n00b-killing is:
1) Good, accurate station turrets, ensuring that killing n00bs in the NFZ will also result in one death for the aggressor.
2) A realistic SF that sticks around for a while once you've left or died, and for more grevious offenders, stalks you until you leave the system, or even nation space.
3) Expanded mission system that puts n00bs through a series of tests and trials before they can talk (or even SEE) open channels like 100, or leave their home system. Perhaps the last "mission" sets you up with a NPC griefer/camper type of pilot that you must kill. Which will teach you how to avoid such people out in unprotected space.
4) One ingame character per account.
Those 4 things would definitely put a serious dent in the n00b-killing industry.
But, as far as things that should be worked on NOW, doing these things is pretty far behind the Deliverator fix, the economy, the improved tutorial, and the friendly fire issue. In fact, perhaps this is a logical "next step" after the friendly-fire issue is fixed.
I like Lecter's suggestion about NFZ not applying to someone Hated or worse at the station. Makes perfect sense, given that the Guards and Strike Force give chase anyway just for entering the sector.
On a related note, none of this helps any if several of the other NFZ and Strike Force bugs aren't also fixed, among them:
- Lightning mines should trigger NFZ violations
- Station Guards shouldn't ignore violations/KOS status for NPCs (let's figure that NPCs do grow to become "player-equivalent" as the game gets fleshed out, so this would be necessary. That and watching unbots hang out by a station while the Guards have a smoke break is just silly).
- Strike Forces shouldn't turn back until they reach the border of their "jurisdiction". This mostly applies to the few "unmonitored" wormholes inside nation space. Unmonitored means that the sector isn't watched full time for violations, but those sectors are still nation space. The Strike Forces seem to be playing by Playground Tag rules in these areas.
On a related note, none of this helps any if several of the other NFZ and Strike Force bugs aren't also fixed, among them:
- Lightning mines should trigger NFZ violations
- Station Guards shouldn't ignore violations/KOS status for NPCs (let's figure that NPCs do grow to become "player-equivalent" as the game gets fleshed out, so this would be necessary. That and watching unbots hang out by a station while the Guards have a smoke break is just silly).
- Strike Forces shouldn't turn back until they reach the border of their "jurisdiction". This mostly applies to the few "unmonitored" wormholes inside nation space. Unmonitored means that the sector isn't watched full time for violations, but those sectors are still nation space. The Strike Forces seem to be playing by Playground Tag rules in these areas.
I think it was already mentioned in this topic, but shouldn't the newbie pvp flag time out after the account is over a month old? If that happened, there wouldn't be a problem. AND, You could make it so moderators could take off the flag. So if anyone abused it; Kazam!
Also, the moderators can mute people if they feel fit (If I'm not mistaken) So spamming wouldn't be a problem either.
~G
Also, the moderators can mute people if they feel fit (If I'm not mistaken) So spamming wouldn't be a problem either.
~G
With proper technique, it is possible to fight a Strike Force indefinitely without leaving a sphere 500 meters in diameter.
-:sigma.SB
-:sigma.SB
I would just like to say that I strongly disagree with a pvp flag if the player is not restricted to some area of space. Its not right that a person should be able to have access to the entire galaxy, danger-free, up until combat level 4. It just doesn't make any sense.
With proper technique, it is possible to fight a Strike Force indefinitely without leaving a sphere 500 meters in diameter.
Care to show us? We'll pick a day, and you can fight them for 12 hours while we watch. I'm willing to bet you haven't got the "proper technique". The SF DO have behaviors that render them less than predictable in combat, and they will whittle you down, slowly but surely.
Care to show us? We'll pick a day, and you can fight them for 12 hours while we watch. I'm willing to bet you haven't got the "proper technique". The SF DO have behaviors that render them less than predictable in combat, and they will whittle you down, slowly but surely.
Oh, Shapenaji, I forgot to mention; It should be only in nation space.
Heh. I bet I know Solra's "technique", but.. yeah. Notice he didn't say "killing many many SF ships", he just said "fight [them] indefinitely."
Oh, and Hi, Garath:
Also, the moderators can mute people if they feel fit (If I'm not mistaken) So spamming wouldn't be a problem either.
There's usually no moderators online these days. VO has to solve player-created problems with other players. It's been ages since I've seen Ku, RelayeR, Obsidian, or other guides online.
Oh, and Hi, Garath:
Also, the moderators can mute people if they feel fit (If I'm not mistaken) So spamming wouldn't be a problem either.
There's usually no moderators online these days. VO has to solve player-created problems with other players. It's been ages since I've seen Ku, RelayeR, Obsidian, or other guides online.
- Strike Forces shouldn't turn back until they reach the border of their "jurisdiction". This mostly applies to the few "unmonitored" wormholes inside nation space. Unmonitored means that the sector isn't watched full time for violations, but those sectors are still nation space. The Strike Forces seem to be playing by Playground Tag rules in these areas.
This is already the case. When I enter Verasi, or when I used to enter Metana, I always have a SF at my heels. They have to be ditched before the WH is safe to camp.
This is already the case. When I enter Verasi, or when I used to enter Metana, I always have a SF at my heels. They have to be ditched before the WH is safe to camp.