Forums » Suggestions
Simple, if you move at 60 ms and the target opportunity window is say 10m in diameter then you have 10/60= 1/6 second opportunity to hit it. If you are moving at 180 m/s the opportunity is 3 times less.
So even with a realtively low ping say 60 ms (it's average for me to have 40-50 ping), if you are moving at 180m/s your chances of hitting the target are really really low.
P.S. these figures are just of the top of my head, the principle will remain true however, no matter what the figures are.
Also the faster you move the smaller is your collision profile, i.e. the harder you are to hit. Even at 60 m/s hitting people isn't that easy. At 200 m/s? Impossible! :)
So even with a realtively low ping say 60 ms (it's average for me to have 40-50 ping), if you are moving at 180m/s your chances of hitting the target are really really low.
P.S. these figures are just of the top of my head, the principle will remain true however, no matter what the figures are.
Also the faster you move the smaller is your collision profile, i.e. the harder you are to hit. Even at 60 m/s hitting people isn't that easy. At 200 m/s? Impossible! :)
No no no, I don't mean manuevering speeds are 220, I mean both people are already moving at 200+, and all motion is relative to eachother. Which means it's exactly the same as if they were standing still.
Yes but that would be stupid. If I had a person hot on my tail moving at 220 m/s I'd change direction and do my best to loose him, and since we would be maneuvring at 220m/s it would make it that much harder for him to hit me.
Why would that be stupid again? Wouldn't that be exactly the way it is now with Itanis running all the time creating a trail of UIT's in nation wars? I don't see how it would be stupid, if anything it would necessitate more use of missiles, which is a very good thing as far as I'm concerned. Shooting a missile would slow you down because you hear the beep beep beep and don't want to get hit.
With my new jump proposal (for wormholes anyway I didn't work out figures for in system jumps yet) it should put a lot of pressure on you to not wait to charge your battery, and grow some, and face your enemy.
With my new and improved "automatic turbo deceleration" it makes it a much smoother transition from turbo to "W" and would make it easy to take out anybody trying to jump away without serious momentum already under their belt.
I just thought of something else.
If jumping takes time, there should be an addon somewhere for busy traders who don't want to wait, and would be willing to equip it to one of their slots. It should be a Large addon, but I may as well be considering a small one for non-traders too.
The item should be called what it is, Quick Jump.
With my new jump proposal (for wormholes anyway I didn't work out figures for in system jumps yet) it should put a lot of pressure on you to not wait to charge your battery, and grow some, and face your enemy.
With my new and improved "automatic turbo deceleration" it makes it a much smoother transition from turbo to "W" and would make it easy to take out anybody trying to jump away without serious momentum already under their belt.
I just thought of something else.
If jumping takes time, there should be an addon somewhere for busy traders who don't want to wait, and would be willing to equip it to one of their slots. It should be a Large addon, but I may as well be considering a small one for non-traders too.
The item should be called what it is, Quick Jump.
FatStrat85:
> Yun, ships do not NEED shields in VO. It might be a nice add-on one
> day but is by no means necessary. We all have fun without them.
Shields are necessary. I donīt consider it fun being shot down within
a second or two without any chance to do anything against it. I know,
you and others will keep telling me that with some magic skill called
dodging you would last longer, but I only find that not to be true. No
matter what I do, whatever ship I use, it doesnīt even seem to move
when I press the buttons, and even if it does, that changes not in any
way that Iīm shot down within a few seconds by some bots or by other
players.
The idea of dodging is absurd. You can be lucky to get away from a
couple shots provided that the bot that fires them is stupid enough,
but you still get hit and take damage. With a couple bots around, they
shoot at you from all sides, and they take you down within a few
seconds.
It is the same as if I told you that I could jump into a pool of water
and could dodge the water so that I donīt get wet. You wonīt believe
me that I could.
> My PvP fights regularly last for more than 2 minutes against other
> fairly experienced players. I've seen fights last much longer than
> that too. My hands start to cramp. You just need to practice. It's a
> game of skill. I almost never die in less than 30 seconds against
> anyone. Eventually you'll be better and will also not die so
> quickly.
I never will. There is no skill that could be aquired. You get into a
fight and are dead after two seconds, so even if there were something
to learn other than pressing the buttons, the two seconds donīt allow
for any learning.
Iīm not saying that shields should make one invulnerable. But,
together with a working afterburner, they would give you something at
hand that you could make use of. As it is now, there is nothing you
could use --- you get into a fight, start pressing buttons for a
couple seconds to no avail and then you are dead. Whatīs the use or
fun to that?
The ships all drive like cars, 18wheelers actually. Of course,
18wheelers donīt move at 50m/s and donīt spin that fast, but flying
the ships feels like driving a large truck. Thereīs nothing to make
you feel that you move fast or to tell you where you move to; most of
the time itīs like you are standing still.
> I know you've played lots of other space games that all have shields
> and you think we're all ingnorant and naïve about it. However, we've
> played those games too. We get it.
No, I donīt think that. But I think that in other games, you had stuff
at hand to use in combat and it felt like you were actually flying
something. Thus you had a change.
> The answer is not to change this game so it's exactly like the other
> games you've played. If that's what you want, just go back and play
> those other games. What you need to do is accept this game and try
> to learn how to play it for what it is, instead of changing it so
> you don't have to learn anything.
The problem is not learning something. The problem is that there is
nothing to learn that would make for a significant improvement.
> The flight and combat model is the biggest thing that VO has going
> for it (obviously the turbo could use some work though). If you hate
> it that much, I'd say VO isn't for you, simply because the devs and
> players agree that it should never change and therefore won't.
Thereīs nothing that special to the flight model. Other games have
similar ones, actually better ones --- better in that they give you a
feeling of flight and let you know in which direction you move.
Besides that, they let you have a chance in combat.
> PvP is not something that will ever be "fixed" in VO.
If combat is not to be changed, Iīll cancel my subscription. It would
be a waste of time rather than fun.
Maybe you can explain to me what fun is to come from being killed in
combat within a few seconds without achieving anything?
> Yun, ships do not NEED shields in VO. It might be a nice add-on one
> day but is by no means necessary. We all have fun without them.
Shields are necessary. I donīt consider it fun being shot down within
a second or two without any chance to do anything against it. I know,
you and others will keep telling me that with some magic skill called
dodging you would last longer, but I only find that not to be true. No
matter what I do, whatever ship I use, it doesnīt even seem to move
when I press the buttons, and even if it does, that changes not in any
way that Iīm shot down within a few seconds by some bots or by other
players.
The idea of dodging is absurd. You can be lucky to get away from a
couple shots provided that the bot that fires them is stupid enough,
but you still get hit and take damage. With a couple bots around, they
shoot at you from all sides, and they take you down within a few
seconds.
It is the same as if I told you that I could jump into a pool of water
and could dodge the water so that I donīt get wet. You wonīt believe
me that I could.
> My PvP fights regularly last for more than 2 minutes against other
> fairly experienced players. I've seen fights last much longer than
> that too. My hands start to cramp. You just need to practice. It's a
> game of skill. I almost never die in less than 30 seconds against
> anyone. Eventually you'll be better and will also not die so
> quickly.
I never will. There is no skill that could be aquired. You get into a
fight and are dead after two seconds, so even if there were something
to learn other than pressing the buttons, the two seconds donīt allow
for any learning.
Iīm not saying that shields should make one invulnerable. But,
together with a working afterburner, they would give you something at
hand that you could make use of. As it is now, there is nothing you
could use --- you get into a fight, start pressing buttons for a
couple seconds to no avail and then you are dead. Whatīs the use or
fun to that?
The ships all drive like cars, 18wheelers actually. Of course,
18wheelers donīt move at 50m/s and donīt spin that fast, but flying
the ships feels like driving a large truck. Thereīs nothing to make
you feel that you move fast or to tell you where you move to; most of
the time itīs like you are standing still.
> I know you've played lots of other space games that all have shields
> and you think we're all ingnorant and naïve about it. However, we've
> played those games too. We get it.
No, I donīt think that. But I think that in other games, you had stuff
at hand to use in combat and it felt like you were actually flying
something. Thus you had a change.
> The answer is not to change this game so it's exactly like the other
> games you've played. If that's what you want, just go back and play
> those other games. What you need to do is accept this game and try
> to learn how to play it for what it is, instead of changing it so
> you don't have to learn anything.
The problem is not learning something. The problem is that there is
nothing to learn that would make for a significant improvement.
> The flight and combat model is the biggest thing that VO has going
> for it (obviously the turbo could use some work though). If you hate
> it that much, I'd say VO isn't for you, simply because the devs and
> players agree that it should never change and therefore won't.
Thereīs nothing that special to the flight model. Other games have
similar ones, actually better ones --- better in that they give you a
feeling of flight and let you know in which direction you move.
Besides that, they let you have a chance in combat.
> PvP is not something that will ever be "fixed" in VO.
If combat is not to be changed, Iīll cancel my subscription. It would
be a waste of time rather than fun.
Maybe you can explain to me what fun is to come from being killed in
combat within a few seconds without achieving anything?
Yun: I will repeat this one last time. The only reason you get killed in less than 5 seconds is that you don't know how to play. If you find it that hard, ask around for some help, there are lots of nice people around that will teach you the basics of combat.
It is simple if right now you last 5 seconds, but want to last say a minute that would mean that people that last 2 minutes would now last 24 minutes.
You keep using the same argument: I get blown up in 5 seconds, it's not fun. Well think about the people that have LEARNED the skills and last two minutes, would it be fun for a single battle to last almost half an hour?
And if you want realism, look at airplanes. In real life an airplane can be taken down with ONE SINGLE shot, so consider yourself lucky ;)
If you feel that you will never improve in VO because it's a game that requires that you dodge (and btw the mission to get the TPG raptor pits you against about 20 bots simultaneously, and since many people do have it that means that dodging works OH WOW!). Then yes I'd say you won't have fun in this game, it's a twitch based game, a game based on aiming and dodging. Demanding that the whole community chnage just for you makes absolutely no sense.
It is simple if right now you last 5 seconds, but want to last say a minute that would mean that people that last 2 minutes would now last 24 minutes.
You keep using the same argument: I get blown up in 5 seconds, it's not fun. Well think about the people that have LEARNED the skills and last two minutes, would it be fun for a single battle to last almost half an hour?
And if you want realism, look at airplanes. In real life an airplane can be taken down with ONE SINGLE shot, so consider yourself lucky ;)
If you feel that you will never improve in VO because it's a game that requires that you dodge (and btw the mission to get the TPG raptor pits you against about 20 bots simultaneously, and since many people do have it that means that dodging works OH WOW!). Then yes I'd say you won't have fun in this game, it's a twitch based game, a game based on aiming and dodging. Demanding that the whole community chnage just for you makes absolutely no sense.
Zed1985 is totally right, and like I said, PvP will never be fixed. The head developer, incarnate, frequently prefaces ideas for updates with "but I don't want to mess up PvP". I hope you reconsider canceling your subscription.
This is a fun game, mostly because of the great PvP, you just need to put the time in. Trust me, I've flown with you in-game and you haven't invested anywhere near enough time time to criticize the flight and comabt model this harshly. You're really bad and are very resistant to advice.
Please consider practicing some more. You might be surprised when you start to warm up to VO's approach to flight and combat. This is a game of skill. Pretty much everyone else was able to become good enough to kill off several of the hardest bots at one time. That's considered a pretty easy and basic skill in VO, usually requiring only a few weeks or less of practice. I'm sure with an open mind, you'll be able to do the same. Everyone else can do it, so do you really think you're that much worse of a gamer than everyone else here?
Anyway, this has gotten WAY off-topic. If you'd like to continue this discussion, start another thread specifically about changing the flight and combat model.
This is a fun game, mostly because of the great PvP, you just need to put the time in. Trust me, I've flown with you in-game and you haven't invested anywhere near enough time time to criticize the flight and comabt model this harshly. You're really bad and are very resistant to advice.
Please consider practicing some more. You might be surprised when you start to warm up to VO's approach to flight and combat. This is a game of skill. Pretty much everyone else was able to become good enough to kill off several of the hardest bots at one time. That's considered a pretty easy and basic skill in VO, usually requiring only a few weeks or less of practice. I'm sure with an open mind, you'll be able to do the same. Everyone else can do it, so do you really think you're that much worse of a gamer than everyone else here?
Anyway, this has gotten WAY off-topic. If you'd like to continue this discussion, start another thread specifically about changing the flight and combat model.
Yes, off-topic indeed. But Yuns posts surprised and irritated me so much I just have to slip in one last comment:
"I never will. There is no skill that could be aquired. You get into a
fight and are dead after two seconds, so even if there were something
to learn other than pressing the buttons, the two seconds donīt allow
for any learning."
Sorry to be harsh, but are you daft, man? You have scores of players telling you there IS skill to be aquired, that fights can last for more than a minute (I once dodged the attacks of one of the reputedly best players in the game for three minutes. Not that I ever hit him, though, except for one time, when I accidentally spun the wrong way and blasted him in the rear :-D ), and that dodging is not only a possibility, but actually a PvP necessity.
Do you think we are all lying to you to make you stay in a game you don't want to play, to continue to sport ill-founded and un-empirical conclusions about a combat system you haven't even *begun* to master?
But we are here to help, though. And it's REALLY REALLY simple to settle your doubts: ask any reasonably skilled player to demonstrate dodging and fighting skills for you, either against you, against another player, or against bots. If you are so sure of your conclusions, you can at least test the validity of your opinions through practical application.
I hope you understanding how laughable it is to hear a new player tell us that the ships hardly seem to move, and that "there is nothing to learn that would make for a significant improvement" in a game we have played for years, and that we grow better at every day. We KNOW that you are wrong, through experience. Refuting that knowledge would be like telling us that anything we might have experienced in VO for the past months or years or confused twitch-based minutes was an illusion.
Oh, and as for those similar games with similar flight models, feel free to share them with us here. Make us see the error of our ways. And while you are at it, feel free to explain the meaning of the arbitrary value-judgement "better flight model". You might call me ignorant and unwilling to learn, but showing me how nicely the ships float along their projected flight axis when you click the far distance in EVE Online just isn't convincing enough...
edited for more sarcasm
"I never will. There is no skill that could be aquired. You get into a
fight and are dead after two seconds, so even if there were something
to learn other than pressing the buttons, the two seconds donīt allow
for any learning."
Sorry to be harsh, but are you daft, man? You have scores of players telling you there IS skill to be aquired, that fights can last for more than a minute (I once dodged the attacks of one of the reputedly best players in the game for three minutes. Not that I ever hit him, though, except for one time, when I accidentally spun the wrong way and blasted him in the rear :-D ), and that dodging is not only a possibility, but actually a PvP necessity.
Do you think we are all lying to you to make you stay in a game you don't want to play, to continue to sport ill-founded and un-empirical conclusions about a combat system you haven't even *begun* to master?
But we are here to help, though. And it's REALLY REALLY simple to settle your doubts: ask any reasonably skilled player to demonstrate dodging and fighting skills for you, either against you, against another player, or against bots. If you are so sure of your conclusions, you can at least test the validity of your opinions through practical application.
I hope you understanding how laughable it is to hear a new player tell us that the ships hardly seem to move, and that "there is nothing to learn that would make for a significant improvement" in a game we have played for years, and that we grow better at every day. We KNOW that you are wrong, through experience. Refuting that knowledge would be like telling us that anything we might have experienced in VO for the past months or years or confused twitch-based minutes was an illusion.
Oh, and as for those similar games with similar flight models, feel free to share them with us here. Make us see the error of our ways. And while you are at it, feel free to explain the meaning of the arbitrary value-judgement "better flight model". You might call me ignorant and unwilling to learn, but showing me how nicely the ships float along their projected flight axis when you click the far distance in EVE Online just isn't convincing enough...
edited for more sarcasm
-Yun, I thought you were good, like as in a decent player? I didn't know you couldn't dodge... I'll keep that in mind if I'm ever near you and you're in a moth, I'll try to fight for you to save everyone the grief you give your killer on 100 (I'm saying this without any previous knowledge that you did ever complain like this, I'm just speculating your attitude as per your "article" above).
BACK ON TOPIC THOUGH
Max speed should be faster with "W" before you need turbo. Let's consider the current stats for a Hog II, (infinite boost w/ 50sec batt charge, and 220 max speed, "W" maxes at 65 m/s). Well what if I said we add on a couple of kilos to each ship in the game (make each ship heavier) and make the "W" top speed higher (but on a curve that is very gradual) and make the turbo on a similar if not equal curve but an "S" shaped curve.
Let's say the turbo graph intersects with the "W" graph like so.
Key: Turbo = X
"W" (normal acceleration) = O
320.
300.
280.
260.
240...................................................X
220.................................X
200.......................X
180................X
160............X
140.........X
120.......X...................................................O
100.....X.................O
080....X.......O
060...X...O
040..X.O
020.XO
000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
The last couple of "X"es take so long to attain that it is not very probable you will see them within a sector's 8000 m or so. The difference here is that the "O"s or "W" thrust stops at about 140 m/s.
BACK ON TOPIC THOUGH
Max speed should be faster with "W" before you need turbo. Let's consider the current stats for a Hog II, (infinite boost w/ 50sec batt charge, and 220 max speed, "W" maxes at 65 m/s). Well what if I said we add on a couple of kilos to each ship in the game (make each ship heavier) and make the "W" top speed higher (but on a curve that is very gradual) and make the turbo on a similar if not equal curve but an "S" shaped curve.
Let's say the turbo graph intersects with the "W" graph like so.
Key: Turbo = X
"W" (normal acceleration) = O
320.
300.
280.
260.
240...................................................X
220.................................X
200.......................X
180................X
160............X
140.........X
120.......X...................................................O
100.....X.................O
080....X.......O
060...X...O
040..X.O
020.XO
000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
The last couple of "X"es take so long to attain that it is not very probable you will see them within a sector's 8000 m or so. The difference here is that the "O"s or "W" thrust stops at about 140 m/s.
Um why?
Also, adding kilos will make them less maneuvrable. Again why?
Also, adding kilos will make them less maneuvrable. Again why?
Because Zed, in my opinion, the ships all accelerate too fast, adding on 200-300kg massively should shorten fights a bit, and help balance out that pesky little piece of space garbage, IBG.
I am not sure I agree with that. I do understant what you mean now (especially since when I posted you didn't have the graph ready so I was wondering what exactly that was.)
I don't really think that the IBG needs nerfing. Yes it is very fast and light. But it's thrust is pretty low. From personal experience an IBG with no weps/ 2x neuts/ 2x gauss /2x flares handles very differently. So if you were to add 200-300 kg meh...
IMO the prom needs nerfing way more than the IBG does. Not that I am calling for the prom to be nerfed ;)
I don't really think that the IBG needs nerfing. Yes it is very fast and light. But it's thrust is pretty low. From personal experience an IBG with no weps/ 2x neuts/ 2x gauss /2x flares handles very differently. So if you were to add 200-300 kg meh...
IMO the prom needs nerfing way more than the IBG does. Not that I am calling for the prom to be nerfed ;)
I really like Apex's idea on the 4th page.
Yes I do as well, in fact so much I will re-post.
APEX HAD AN EXCELLENT POINT.||
..................................................V
{
My thoughts on turbo/thrust:
The problem with turbo/thrust right now (as I see it):
regular cruising speed is unrealistically slow, and unreasonably so for travel through sectors, this feels constraining for travelers.
Constant turbo is the only reasonable means of travel through sectors. Turbo constrains movement entirely to a straight line, and sucks up battery juice. This, again, feels constraining for traveling.
Solutions?
1. Increase overall cruising speed.
The problem with increasing overall cruising speed: This allows for extreme speed control during combat, and makes maneuvering easy to the point of making combat nothing better than silly, as players throw futile bolts of energy into nothing but vacume, since the target is circling at 140 m/s.
2. Remove the "Vendetta Virtual Inertial Dampner" that makes constant turbo necessary.
The problem with removing the inertial dampner: Once again, this makes certain aspects of combat quite exploitable. Players could boost in one direction, reaching very high speeds while strafing past a target that has no chance of hitting the attacker, who is moving very fast (~200m/s), with a slight curve to avoid being hit.
A balanced solution:
Instead of increasing overall speed, making high speed maneuvering (and annoying latency strain) a problem. simply increase FORWARD movement speed caps. Our ships all appear to have rear thrusters, even though they're supposed to be exhaust vents, it doesn't make any less sense that the rear thrusters would offer more velocity.
There's a speed cap on maneuvering in ALL directions right now.. about 60m/s in any direction (depending on your ship). 60m/s is great for combat balance right now for manuvering. but the main problem is that 60m/s feels slow as molasses for forward travel.
If it were possible, we could have our ships -very- gradually be able to reach a very high cruising speed, possibly close to max turbo speed.
The above would obviously require some changes to that virtual inertial dampner.
If the regular, unpowered cruising speed was universally capped to some speed, strafing by someone at 200m/s is not possible, and in order to maneuver at all, one would have to drop to a more reasonable speed.
Now when I say "unpowered" that means, lacking forward thrust. Only by actively thrusting forward would one be able to exceed the global speed cap, similar to how turbo works, but to a lesser extent.
A physics problem occurs when one is cruising forward, and turns their ship on axis. without that forward thrust, I suppose the vehicle would slow down slightly, while increasing speed in only the direction it's facing. It'd probably look/feel a bit like turning a car in drift or a boat, or even like turning in FA mode, only at a higher velocity.
To sum it up:
-Regular maneuvering mechanics do not change.
-Forward thrust ONLY will -very- gradually allow speeds close to max turbo speed.
-Turbo boost becomes used more as a limited power/speed burst.
Benefits:
-Backrolling becomes less favorable, since a pursuer will always have a speed advantage.
-Traveling becomes less tedious
-maintaining interval speeds becomes possible for escorting.
-regular dogfighting styles remain unchanged
-Spaceflight feels more realistic. Less like a rubberband is pulling you back all the time.
}
I pretty much said the same thing as that ^ but less sophistocated.
APEX HAD AN EXCELLENT POINT.||
..................................................V
{
My thoughts on turbo/thrust:
The problem with turbo/thrust right now (as I see it):
regular cruising speed is unrealistically slow, and unreasonably so for travel through sectors, this feels constraining for travelers.
Constant turbo is the only reasonable means of travel through sectors. Turbo constrains movement entirely to a straight line, and sucks up battery juice. This, again, feels constraining for traveling.
Solutions?
1. Increase overall cruising speed.
The problem with increasing overall cruising speed: This allows for extreme speed control during combat, and makes maneuvering easy to the point of making combat nothing better than silly, as players throw futile bolts of energy into nothing but vacume, since the target is circling at 140 m/s.
2. Remove the "Vendetta Virtual Inertial Dampner" that makes constant turbo necessary.
The problem with removing the inertial dampner: Once again, this makes certain aspects of combat quite exploitable. Players could boost in one direction, reaching very high speeds while strafing past a target that has no chance of hitting the attacker, who is moving very fast (~200m/s), with a slight curve to avoid being hit.
A balanced solution:
Instead of increasing overall speed, making high speed maneuvering (and annoying latency strain) a problem. simply increase FORWARD movement speed caps. Our ships all appear to have rear thrusters, even though they're supposed to be exhaust vents, it doesn't make any less sense that the rear thrusters would offer more velocity.
There's a speed cap on maneuvering in ALL directions right now.. about 60m/s in any direction (depending on your ship). 60m/s is great for combat balance right now for manuvering. but the main problem is that 60m/s feels slow as molasses for forward travel.
If it were possible, we could have our ships -very- gradually be able to reach a very high cruising speed, possibly close to max turbo speed.
The above would obviously require some changes to that virtual inertial dampner.
If the regular, unpowered cruising speed was universally capped to some speed, strafing by someone at 200m/s is not possible, and in order to maneuver at all, one would have to drop to a more reasonable speed.
Now when I say "unpowered" that means, lacking forward thrust. Only by actively thrusting forward would one be able to exceed the global speed cap, similar to how turbo works, but to a lesser extent.
A physics problem occurs when one is cruising forward, and turns their ship on axis. without that forward thrust, I suppose the vehicle would slow down slightly, while increasing speed in only the direction it's facing. It'd probably look/feel a bit like turning a car in drift or a boat, or even like turning in FA mode, only at a higher velocity.
To sum it up:
-Regular maneuvering mechanics do not change.
-Forward thrust ONLY will -very- gradually allow speeds close to max turbo speed.
-Turbo boost becomes used more as a limited power/speed burst.
Benefits:
-Backrolling becomes less favorable, since a pursuer will always have a speed advantage.
-Traveling becomes less tedious
-maintaining interval speeds becomes possible for escorting.
-regular dogfighting styles remain unchanged
-Spaceflight feels more realistic. Less like a rubberband is pulling you back all the time.
}
I pretty much said the same thing as that ^ but less sophistocated.
Thanks thrown out to Jim Kirk, and Apex for the ideas. And thankyou LeberMac for that clear and easily comprehensive chart. I firmly support the everything posted immediately above. Especially the part about more coasting, if I read it right. That cosmic rubber band ticks everyone off, and instead of having a constant drag on everyone, why not just limit it so that thrusting becomes less efficient at higher speeds such that it takes a steady 3 or 4 seconds for most ships just to get past the current limit for crusing speed? Nothing would change in the regular dogfighting tactics, except maybe an easier transition into higher speeds when trying to escape or chase. So, the rest is me just kinda' going off on what I think sucks, and what would be way past cool. Mostly the latter.
I hate this:
It frustrates me how blocky manuevering is, turbo or no. There's only two settings for your thrusters, off and on. Albeit at distances past 30m it hardly makes much difference, but with such high manuevering ships such as our friend the IBG those up front and personal dogfights can get ludicrously jumpy. I liken the over correcting I'm forced to do to driving on the highway with a go-cart... while drinking a cup of coffee and talking on your cell phone. Anyways, I hope you get the idea.
This would be neat:
So, incarnate mentioned that maybe ships' max speed ought to be tied to their recharge rate, in that fast manuevering would induce equally fast power cell drain. This is an important detail, because it makes manuevering with varying weights a more vital detail in whatever your doing, trading, dog fighting (rockets are heavy, for example, but require no energy to wield), whatever. So, I was thinking that instead of having the black and white cut off, turbo or no turbo, set a dynamic bar that would determine your acceleration rate. You would set the rate of energy per second you drain when thrusting in any direction, and different power cells could have all sorts of varying rates. I suspect that new keys would have to be bound for this purpose, such as an increase to energy used, a decrease, and several more keys that could be bound to achieve predetermined levels (such as maximum, minimum, halfway, or whatever). The thrust of a ship is how much speed you get from X amount of energy that goes into engines. To help get an idea of this, here's a rough list the different mass to thrust ratios from different types of ships:
15:1 * Valkerye, in a league all its own.
20:1 * Light fighters (Centaurion, Vulture, TPG Raptor)
25:1 * Light attack ships (Hornet, Warthog, Prometheus)
30:1 * Regular vessels (EC, Revanent, Atlas)
35:1 * Trading vessels (Centaur-ish, Marauder)
40:1 * Heavy attack ships (Ragnorak)
60:1 * Heavy freighters (Behemoth)
The information a courtesy of http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Ships
God, the personality it opens up for new power cells is just lovely. Here's some just outta' the top of my head:
Orion Industrial Power Cell
Mass - 4000kg
Recharge rate - 100/sec
Capacity - 500 energy
Min. energy input - 90/sec
Max. energy input - 150/sec
"Need power? Think Orion."
Obvious target consumers of such a powercell would be among those driving large and bulky trade vessels. The shear weight alone makes manuevering in combat a chore. Because of the low max energy input, there's not a whole lot of sharp boosting one could do. The large capacity makes cruising over distances a cinch though, especially coupled with an empty to full recharge rate of only 5 seconds. However, travelling through, and from wormholes while under attack might prove to be impractical. The min. energy input of a whopping 90 means that manuevers will be choppy at best. Docking will definately take time, and I can just imagine the hospitable bills associated with young, dare devil pilots. Primary cause for medical treatment: Outfitting an IBG with an Orion Power Cell. Still, prospectors might find the Orion invaluable when exploring beyond the known universe.
Standard Issue Power Cell:
Mass - 100kg
Recharge rate - 30/sec
Capacity - 300 energy
Min. energy input - 10/sec
Max. energy input - 90/sec
The most basic of Power Cells available on the market, and perfect for the budding space hero and his plucky EC-89. Now, when comparing this model to the Orion, remember that the mass to thrust ratio between the Behemoth, and most regular ships (EC, Revananent, Atlas, to name a few) is about two to one respectively, so think double when translating min. and max. input rates into how fast a ship thrusts. In other words, the max. energy input allows for a maximum burn of about 5 seconds, and would be a bit but not much more effective than a 'moth on an Orion. The recharge rate is not a whole lot, but enough to travel between sectors and engage in minor combat. It's light, it's cheap, and sets the standard for further generations of Power Cells.
Ineubis Heavey Defense Power Cell
Mass - 1200kg
Recharge rate - 125/sec
Capacity - 250 energy
Min. energy input - 10/sec
Max. energy input - 50/sec
A primary power source to turn to when dealing with energy weapons, the Ineubis Heavy Defense Power Cell is a must for some pilots. Designed for the heavier class attack ship, it offers enough power to sustain simaltaneus fire from three neutron blasters at once for several seconds, with only a lapse for recharge between passes. The drawback of course is it's low max. for energy, thus limiting the capability for high powered thrusts. Maxing out at only 50 energy per second, the Ineubis provides plenty of energy for basic manuevers, but pilots might find themselves disappointed when chasing, or trying to escape a foe.
A recent popular ship build involves equipping a light fighter craft with the Ineubis, offering near limitless energy fire, and enough thrust on the high end to chase off unfortuanate intruders. Although the extra mass makes manuevering more difficult, and the relatively low boosting speeds lends itself to difficulty in escaping a dogfight, this option still find popularity with the militia driven pilots for it's ability to easily traverse long distances efficiently, and offer peerless potential for firepower. For this same reason some pirates swear by the Power Cell, although chasing down anything slower than a 'moth can prove futile.
That's all I can think of for now. Add in your own for fun! (And to get your name noticed on an almost certainly immortal thread.)
I hate this:
It frustrates me how blocky manuevering is, turbo or no. There's only two settings for your thrusters, off and on. Albeit at distances past 30m it hardly makes much difference, but with such high manuevering ships such as our friend the IBG those up front and personal dogfights can get ludicrously jumpy. I liken the over correcting I'm forced to do to driving on the highway with a go-cart... while drinking a cup of coffee and talking on your cell phone. Anyways, I hope you get the idea.
This would be neat:
So, incarnate mentioned that maybe ships' max speed ought to be tied to their recharge rate, in that fast manuevering would induce equally fast power cell drain. This is an important detail, because it makes manuevering with varying weights a more vital detail in whatever your doing, trading, dog fighting (rockets are heavy, for example, but require no energy to wield), whatever. So, I was thinking that instead of having the black and white cut off, turbo or no turbo, set a dynamic bar that would determine your acceleration rate. You would set the rate of energy per second you drain when thrusting in any direction, and different power cells could have all sorts of varying rates. I suspect that new keys would have to be bound for this purpose, such as an increase to energy used, a decrease, and several more keys that could be bound to achieve predetermined levels (such as maximum, minimum, halfway, or whatever). The thrust of a ship is how much speed you get from X amount of energy that goes into engines. To help get an idea of this, here's a rough list the different mass to thrust ratios from different types of ships:
15:1 * Valkerye, in a league all its own.
20:1 * Light fighters (Centaurion, Vulture, TPG Raptor)
25:1 * Light attack ships (Hornet, Warthog, Prometheus)
30:1 * Regular vessels (EC, Revanent, Atlas)
35:1 * Trading vessels (Centaur-ish, Marauder)
40:1 * Heavy attack ships (Ragnorak)
60:1 * Heavy freighters (Behemoth)
The information a courtesy of http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Ships
God, the personality it opens up for new power cells is just lovely. Here's some just outta' the top of my head:
Orion Industrial Power Cell
Mass - 4000kg
Recharge rate - 100/sec
Capacity - 500 energy
Min. energy input - 90/sec
Max. energy input - 150/sec
"Need power? Think Orion."
Obvious target consumers of such a powercell would be among those driving large and bulky trade vessels. The shear weight alone makes manuevering in combat a chore. Because of the low max energy input, there's not a whole lot of sharp boosting one could do. The large capacity makes cruising over distances a cinch though, especially coupled with an empty to full recharge rate of only 5 seconds. However, travelling through, and from wormholes while under attack might prove to be impractical. The min. energy input of a whopping 90 means that manuevers will be choppy at best. Docking will definately take time, and I can just imagine the hospitable bills associated with young, dare devil pilots. Primary cause for medical treatment: Outfitting an IBG with an Orion Power Cell. Still, prospectors might find the Orion invaluable when exploring beyond the known universe.
Standard Issue Power Cell:
Mass - 100kg
Recharge rate - 30/sec
Capacity - 300 energy
Min. energy input - 10/sec
Max. energy input - 90/sec
The most basic of Power Cells available on the market, and perfect for the budding space hero and his plucky EC-89. Now, when comparing this model to the Orion, remember that the mass to thrust ratio between the Behemoth, and most regular ships (EC, Revananent, Atlas, to name a few) is about two to one respectively, so think double when translating min. and max. input rates into how fast a ship thrusts. In other words, the max. energy input allows for a maximum burn of about 5 seconds, and would be a bit but not much more effective than a 'moth on an Orion. The recharge rate is not a whole lot, but enough to travel between sectors and engage in minor combat. It's light, it's cheap, and sets the standard for further generations of Power Cells.
Ineubis Heavey Defense Power Cell
Mass - 1200kg
Recharge rate - 125/sec
Capacity - 250 energy
Min. energy input - 10/sec
Max. energy input - 50/sec
A primary power source to turn to when dealing with energy weapons, the Ineubis Heavy Defense Power Cell is a must for some pilots. Designed for the heavier class attack ship, it offers enough power to sustain simaltaneus fire from three neutron blasters at once for several seconds, with only a lapse for recharge between passes. The drawback of course is it's low max. for energy, thus limiting the capability for high powered thrusts. Maxing out at only 50 energy per second, the Ineubis provides plenty of energy for basic manuevers, but pilots might find themselves disappointed when chasing, or trying to escape a foe.
A recent popular ship build involves equipping a light fighter craft with the Ineubis, offering near limitless energy fire, and enough thrust on the high end to chase off unfortuanate intruders. Although the extra mass makes manuevering more difficult, and the relatively low boosting speeds lends itself to difficulty in escaping a dogfight, this option still find popularity with the militia driven pilots for it's ability to easily traverse long distances efficiently, and offer peerless potential for firepower. For this same reason some pirates swear by the Power Cell, although chasing down anything slower than a 'moth can prove futile.
That's all I can think of for now. Add in your own for fun! (And to get your name noticed on an almost certainly immortal thread.)
Wow, very well thought out response SuperMegaMynt.
I like how batteries are very diverse, and have very specific uses. It makes sense that there shouldn't be 6 batteries in the game, while there should be more batteries than ships. There are more weapons than ships... but there you go. I remember when there were different engines you could buy as well, that was pretty cool, but now that batteries might change top speed and/or acceleration it's good that it's gone.
I like how batteries are very diverse, and have very specific uses. It makes sense that there shouldn't be 6 batteries in the game, while there should be more batteries than ships. There are more weapons than ships... but there you go. I remember when there were different engines you could buy as well, that was pretty cool, but now that batteries might change top speed and/or acceleration it's good that it's gone.
An additional thought, switching the input rate ought not be instantaneous. Realism aside, that could affect combat in silly and unfortuanate ways. A whole new statistic to a ship, similar to spin torque would have to be added, that would regulate the time it took, for example to switch from thrusting at 10 energy per second, to 100. (Imagine the bar on your energy rate rise up and slowly settle on 40/s.)
Axia Accelerated Power Cell:
Mass - 400kg
Recharge rate - 50/sec
Capacity - 400 energy
Min. energy input - 10/sec
Max. energy input - 150/sec
The natural choice for any pilot actively engaging in military combat, the Axia Accelerated Power Cell offers enough energy for an extended dogfight. Smaller ships in particularly will find the Axia Accelerated useful for quickly entering and exiting contested territory, and burst tactics within. The key word for the Axia is options, from sustained fire to intersystem cruising, to a high burn of just less than three seconds. A common tactic employed by veterans in Deneb consists of outfitting their vehicle with primarily missle based weaponry, and taking advantage of the Power Cell's high thrust potential and light weight to rain down projectiles on their targets with terrifying quickness. This method has been fondly and appropriately dubbed "Thunder and Lightning" tactics by combatants from both nations.
Man, just think about it; Nation specific power cells would be the awesome!
Axia Accelerated Power Cell:
Mass - 400kg
Recharge rate - 50/sec
Capacity - 400 energy
Min. energy input - 10/sec
Max. energy input - 150/sec
The natural choice for any pilot actively engaging in military combat, the Axia Accelerated Power Cell offers enough energy for an extended dogfight. Smaller ships in particularly will find the Axia Accelerated useful for quickly entering and exiting contested territory, and burst tactics within. The key word for the Axia is options, from sustained fire to intersystem cruising, to a high burn of just less than three seconds. A common tactic employed by veterans in Deneb consists of outfitting their vehicle with primarily missle based weaponry, and taking advantage of the Power Cell's high thrust potential and light weight to rain down projectiles on their targets with terrifying quickness. This method has been fondly and appropriately dubbed "Thunder and Lightning" tactics by combatants from both nations.
Man, just think about it; Nation specific power cells would be the awesome!
As a number of ppl mentioned in several previous threads and posts., to sum it up:
we need more diversity in ships/weps/batts.
And we need them to be nation specific.
Centuries of independent development of a tech advanced nation like Itani produced valkyre, centurion and wraith? No nation specific guns or batts?
Centuries of existence of highly militant serco nation managed to produce Prometheus and vulture without any nation specific guns, or batts?
Yes I know the answer, TPG stole all of itani/serco nation brains and are ruling the universe, producing all ships, weps, batts.
TPG cares for your every need.
You need an advanced ship or weapon? Choose TPG, itani/serco are too dumb and primitive to manufacture something advanced.
we need more diversity in ships/weps/batts.
And we need them to be nation specific.
Centuries of independent development of a tech advanced nation like Itani produced valkyre, centurion and wraith? No nation specific guns or batts?
Centuries of existence of highly militant serco nation managed to produce Prometheus and vulture without any nation specific guns, or batts?
Yes I know the answer, TPG stole all of itani/serco nation brains and are ruling the universe, producing all ships, weps, batts.
TPG cares for your every need.
You need an advanced ship or weapon? Choose TPG, itani/serco are too dumb and primitive to manufacture something advanced.
Edit: On second thought, I need to retake a math class. None of that equation makes any sense.
Anywho, the gist of it was that a ship with twice as much mass (or half as much thrust) would need to devote twice as much energy to move the same speeds. With a battery like that Ineubis Heavey Defense Power Cell I made up, that would mean you wouldn't be able to move fast at all, even though you had 125 energy/sec to fire weapons with, since the max for devoting energy to the engines would be no more than 50/sec.
Anywho, the gist of it was that a ship with twice as much mass (or half as much thrust) would need to devote twice as much energy to move the same speeds. With a battery like that Ineubis Heavey Defense Power Cell I made up, that would mean you wouldn't be able to move fast at all, even though you had 125 energy/sec to fire weapons with, since the max for devoting energy to the engines would be no more than 50/sec.
yea, hopefully it looks somewhat similar to the current set-up maxes. I would never limit top speed, but for the devs sake, I would say we should stay around 300m/s or so before it becomes so long in between increments, and it's hard to slow down!