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Hi, I want to throw this out there real quick and let you guys chew on it and tell me what you think. This is not something that would be changing in the immediate future, it would require a substantial amount of testing and tweaking. Fundamentally, I want to "fix" a number of aspects of the game that I don't think are quite right, and the whole throttle/turbo situation has long been one of them. Of course, I'm loathe to touch it for fear of screwing up the best aspect of our gameplay.. the combat.. but it should be revisited at some point. So, consider this an academic discussion, not anything that's going to happen in the immediate future.
The idea: Right now we have two arbitrary throttle settings, one that uses energy and one that does not. You can increase throttle up to your maximum speed cap (~60m/s), beyond which you have to hit "tab" and use turbo to gain additional speed. Powercells have varying recharge rates, so "turbo" on different ships equipped with different cells yields varying efficiency.
Instead, we could make the equipped powercell basically define, based on the recharge rate, the top-speed for "non-turbo" thrust. Ie, the speed at which "normal thrust" caps out would be the place where a 1:1 ratio exists between powercell recharge and thrust energy usage. Above that would require hitting "tab" for turbo, but would increase as a curve from that 1:1 point up to the maximum thrust-output/power-usage point.
So, in other words, throttle would act more like a gradient than the current "go slow, don't use energy"/"go fast, use energy" choice. Your ship would be capable of a lot more varied speeds without doing a lot of elaborate turbo-tapping. The control mechanism could also change.. something like "tab" to engage the turbo, up to the desired speed, and then hitting "w" again would disengage turbo.
Battery recharge rates and ship engine efficiencies might have to be re-tuned a bit for this. I would NOT want to increase overall speeds, but perhaps make average speeds (say, 140m/s) less annoying to achieve. The point being, make it easier to cross distances within sectors. As long as sufficient speed differences still exist between fighter and non-fighter craft, to make escorting and piracy still viable (and potentially more viable than it is already).. I think the benefits might outweigh the downsides.
Why do I want to make it easier to move within sectors? Well, for one thing.. there's a tremendous amount of "space" that is currently unused, that I would like to make use of. Sectors tend to have one and only one point of interest (station, wormhole, etc). I have always wanted multiple stations spread out across a sector.. plus intra-sector navigation and a point to give more geaographical meaning to your moving about in space. I think we lost a lot of that when we moved to the "new" (post-alpha) universe and navigation system. We don't have any Stuff that's Interesting and worth visiting. If there's a cluster of asteroids way out there, then there should be some value in going there (special NPC who offers mission, unusual minerals, whatever), and getting there shouldn't be an irritating exercise of holding "tab".
So anyway, again, this is NOT something that's going to happen in the immediate future. I'd just like some feedback on the idea. I absolutely do not want to screw up combat, which would be my biggest concern. I don't want to make it easier to "run", and I don't want to increase the overall speed of combat, as we're already at the limits of internet latency (especially for people out side of north america).
So, feel free to debate and point out problems with my idea. I have a ton of short-term changes I need to go focus on, but this is one that has been on my mind for awhile.
The idea: Right now we have two arbitrary throttle settings, one that uses energy and one that does not. You can increase throttle up to your maximum speed cap (~60m/s), beyond which you have to hit "tab" and use turbo to gain additional speed. Powercells have varying recharge rates, so "turbo" on different ships equipped with different cells yields varying efficiency.
Instead, we could make the equipped powercell basically define, based on the recharge rate, the top-speed for "non-turbo" thrust. Ie, the speed at which "normal thrust" caps out would be the place where a 1:1 ratio exists between powercell recharge and thrust energy usage. Above that would require hitting "tab" for turbo, but would increase as a curve from that 1:1 point up to the maximum thrust-output/power-usage point.
So, in other words, throttle would act more like a gradient than the current "go slow, don't use energy"/"go fast, use energy" choice. Your ship would be capable of a lot more varied speeds without doing a lot of elaborate turbo-tapping. The control mechanism could also change.. something like "tab" to engage the turbo, up to the desired speed, and then hitting "w" again would disengage turbo.
Battery recharge rates and ship engine efficiencies might have to be re-tuned a bit for this. I would NOT want to increase overall speeds, but perhaps make average speeds (say, 140m/s) less annoying to achieve. The point being, make it easier to cross distances within sectors. As long as sufficient speed differences still exist between fighter and non-fighter craft, to make escorting and piracy still viable (and potentially more viable than it is already).. I think the benefits might outweigh the downsides.
Why do I want to make it easier to move within sectors? Well, for one thing.. there's a tremendous amount of "space" that is currently unused, that I would like to make use of. Sectors tend to have one and only one point of interest (station, wormhole, etc). I have always wanted multiple stations spread out across a sector.. plus intra-sector navigation and a point to give more geaographical meaning to your moving about in space. I think we lost a lot of that when we moved to the "new" (post-alpha) universe and navigation system. We don't have any Stuff that's Interesting and worth visiting. If there's a cluster of asteroids way out there, then there should be some value in going there (special NPC who offers mission, unusual minerals, whatever), and getting there shouldn't be an irritating exercise of holding "tab".
So anyway, again, this is NOT something that's going to happen in the immediate future. I'd just like some feedback on the idea. I absolutely do not want to screw up combat, which would be my biggest concern. I don't want to make it easier to "run", and I don't want to increase the overall speed of combat, as we're already at the limits of internet latency (especially for people out side of north america).
So, feel free to debate and point out problems with my idea. I have a ton of short-term changes I need to go focus on, but this is one that has been on my mind for awhile.
Sounds great.
*stamp* Approved
Good Idea I have always thought the throttle could use some work. On a side note we were talking inthe guild about mining events and other assorted event to make gameplay more enjoyable for the guild and general population.
I like the idea of other things in sector too. how about a few spacial anomalies (rifts, quasars, and the such that yo have to travel out to see like and easter egg)
Woodstock (EnB) Commander of the UIT Vessel YellowBird
Good Idea I have always thought the throttle could use some work. On a side note we were talking inthe guild about mining events and other assorted event to make gameplay more enjoyable for the guild and general population.
I like the idea of other things in sector too. how about a few spacial anomalies (rifts, quasars, and the such that yo have to travel out to see like and easter egg)
Woodstock (EnB) Commander of the UIT Vessel YellowBird
AKA Ecka Estenk
I agree with all the above ideas . In the long term an ability to add "player designed features" to presently empty sectors would be great fun . Other games have editors for player designed maps , I realise its a lot of work for the devs but in the long term ?
TGFT is currently a very active guild ; we do have regular convoys and mining events in the few dangerous parts of the universe to sharpen things up .
On a completely separate note , when mining press k to get "information" and you get a big screen with the word "Asteroid" . Why not make that a player editable box attached to that specific asteroid so that later miners could enjoy a pithy or profound sentiment.....
Ecka snoozed and mined this roid ,
He mined it far too hot hot ,
Thats what you get for smoking xith,
Your profits gone to pot .......
cheers
I agree with all the above ideas . In the long term an ability to add "player designed features" to presently empty sectors would be great fun . Other games have editors for player designed maps , I realise its a lot of work for the devs but in the long term ?
TGFT is currently a very active guild ; we do have regular convoys and mining events in the few dangerous parts of the universe to sharpen things up .
On a completely separate note , when mining press k to get "information" and you get a big screen with the word "Asteroid" . Why not make that a player editable box attached to that specific asteroid so that later miners could enjoy a pithy or profound sentiment.....
Ecka snoozed and mined this roid ,
He mined it far too hot hot ,
Thats what you get for smoking xith,
Your profits gone to pot .......
cheers
I always wanted this implimented.
Once this is put in I think we can successfully get rid of infini turbo on large ships.
Once this is put in I think we can successfully get rid of infini turbo on large ships.
Just to check if I understand incarnate's post:
Imagine I'm sitting still in my plane, no movement, no thrust
-> My battery recharges at the maximum recharge rate.
Then I then hit the "forward button" (w for some people), so my energy usage goes up and my ship starts to accelerate forward.
->A) Does my recharge rate go to 0 as I'm using all power for acceleration. Acceleration goes down with speed. When I release button, recharge goes back to maximum, velocity stays the same. At maximum cruise speed, my recharge rate can still be maximum, as maintaining the speed does not cost energy. Using turbo to "overdrive" the engines would cause my battery to drain, but enable me to accelerate faster and reach a higher top-speed. But, would this top-speed be maintainable without power?
OR
->B) Does my recharge rate go down slowly, meaning my battery is still recharging, but slower recharge the faster I go as energy is used to maintain speed. When I release the button, recharge rate stays the same, so does velocity. At maximum cruise speed, recharge rate is 0, as all energy is used to maintain that speed. If I "enable turbo" I can continue to accelerate after this, my battery would start to drain, the higher the velocity, the higher the drain. Would this "turbo" have any effect if my velocity is below cruise speeds?
Imagine I'm sitting still in my plane, no movement, no thrust
-> My battery recharges at the maximum recharge rate.
Then I then hit the "forward button" (w for some people), so my energy usage goes up and my ship starts to accelerate forward.
->A) Does my recharge rate go to 0 as I'm using all power for acceleration. Acceleration goes down with speed. When I release button, recharge goes back to maximum, velocity stays the same. At maximum cruise speed, my recharge rate can still be maximum, as maintaining the speed does not cost energy. Using turbo to "overdrive" the engines would cause my battery to drain, but enable me to accelerate faster and reach a higher top-speed. But, would this top-speed be maintainable without power?
OR
->B) Does my recharge rate go down slowly, meaning my battery is still recharging, but slower recharge the faster I go as energy is used to maintain speed. When I release the button, recharge rate stays the same, so does velocity. At maximum cruise speed, recharge rate is 0, as all energy is used to maintain that speed. If I "enable turbo" I can continue to accelerate after this, my battery would start to drain, the higher the velocity, the higher the drain. Would this "turbo" have any effect if my velocity is below cruise speeds?
random thought follow :P
So ... does that mean with the current stats (I know they'd be adjusted) ... a svg with fc could go 180 without and 240 with boost?
That erm .. could get interesting with the ultra lights.
And how would infiniboost ships be handled? Because they could go at a top speed all the time even without boost. Boost just to accelerate faster?
One problem pirates trying to catch a moth right now have is that their own turbo locks them into a direction .. which makes them very valunarable to mines. A change like that could have an interesting effect on that. Since they could easier evade mines without losing much speed.
/me trips down the memory lane
The late alpha sector 5 was awesome! One station easily reachable , a big roid field with evil evil bots in it and another staton + secret wormhole behind it.
I hope this also means a drain increase, as infiniboost will be easier achievable, and that non turbo speeds will stay well below the top speed of most bots. So that storms and bots actually become dangerous again. High infiniboost is what made trading dull IMHO. There are hardly any risk too trading unless some guys decide to gang up on a hole.
Hell, why not put bots into some gate sectors and the outer reaches of stations too! fun fun.
So ... does that mean with the current stats (I know they'd be adjusted) ... a svg with fc could go 180 without and 240 with boost?
That erm .. could get interesting with the ultra lights.
And how would infiniboost ships be handled? Because they could go at a top speed all the time even without boost. Boost just to accelerate faster?
One problem pirates trying to catch a moth right now have is that their own turbo locks them into a direction .. which makes them very valunarable to mines. A change like that could have an interesting effect on that. Since they could easier evade mines without losing much speed.
/me trips down the memory lane
The late alpha sector 5 was awesome! One station easily reachable , a big roid field with evil evil bots in it and another staton + secret wormhole behind it.
I hope this also means a drain increase, as infiniboost will be easier achievable, and that non turbo speeds will stay well below the top speed of most bots. So that storms and bots actually become dangerous again. High infiniboost is what made trading dull IMHO. There are hardly any risk too trading unless some guys decide to gang up on a hole.
Hell, why not put bots into some gate sectors and the outer reaches of stations too! fun fun.
I think Incarnate is envisioning Noid's B scenario. He says the normal max speed would be the point where the engine is consuming energy at a rate equal to the recharge rate of the powercell. So infiniturbo becomes the new max speed.
The big difference to combat I can see is moving battles will become even more energy intensive. Right now all energy is devoted to weapons, unless the pilot engages their tubo. In this new system, energy will always be split between propulsion and weapons (unless you are not moving, in which case demand for weapon energy will not last long as you will soon be exploded). So a large rebalance of recharge rates and engine consumption would definitely be in order to make up for the overall increase in energy consumption.
It's a good idea, but will need plenty of testing by players on the test server.
The big difference to combat I can see is moving battles will become even more energy intensive. Right now all energy is devoted to weapons, unless the pilot engages their tubo. In this new system, energy will always be split between propulsion and weapons (unless you are not moving, in which case demand for weapon energy will not last long as you will soon be exploded). So a large rebalance of recharge rates and engine consumption would definitely be in order to make up for the overall increase in energy consumption.
It's a good idea, but will need plenty of testing by players on the test server.
Some time back, I macro'ed my joystick to "pulse-turbo" my non-infiniboost ship at a ratio that basically maintained my battery charge. (think: tab .8, wait .2, tab....) It was nice, because it gave me some manuverability (albeit rather jerky) at speeds around 150m/s, while maintaining over 75-85% of my battery charge.
The problem was it sent timed keypress streams to the client, which tended to become untimed. It was very lag-sensitive. And because the system only accepts so many keypreses per second, it wasn't smooth. Oh yeah, did i say that it interfered with the chat?
I definitely like the idea, Inc, but would make one suggestion:
reduce ship manuverability accordingly as it leaves cruising speed and gets closer to turbo-speeds.
The problem was it sent timed keypress streams to the client, which tended to become untimed. It was very lag-sensitive. And because the system only accepts so many keypreses per second, it wasn't smooth. Oh yeah, did i say that it interfered with the chat?
I definitely like the idea, Inc, but would make one suggestion:
reduce ship manuverability accordingly as it leaves cruising speed and gets closer to turbo-speeds.
@Incarnate: [APPROVED]x?
I imagine this will change the weapon preferences in combat, and could easily promote more veriety too (ie not just all flares, N3's. and Gauss).
@Will Roberts: That would make the most practical sense. I [APPROVE]
I imagine this will change the weapon preferences in combat, and could easily promote more veriety too (ie not just all flares, N3's. and Gauss).
@Will Roberts: That would make the most practical sense. I [APPROVE]
Something like this?
.
I can envision having different powercurves for different engines and/or ships. (i.e. the blue line changes) With different torque/thrust ratings. It would be nice to have an "open" top-end so that you could get going really fast for brief intervals with a FC batt and a light ship and a powerful engine.
Where the blue line and the green line intersect is where the current "non-turbo" max would be. 50-75 m/s.
It would be rather neat if you could modify the ship construction area to have a "performance" tab, changing out the battery, the engines, and your ship and its equipped items. You could make the changes and see the new powercurve in realtime, to fine tune your ship to your style.
For example, if you're a jouster in PvP, you'd want a high-torque engine with a fast recharge battery so you can make quick accels/decels in jousting combat. If you're a trader, you want a heavy charge battery with the highest sustained torque / speed.
This could be neat. I like this idea a lot.
.
I can envision having different powercurves for different engines and/or ships. (i.e. the blue line changes) With different torque/thrust ratings. It would be nice to have an "open" top-end so that you could get going really fast for brief intervals with a FC batt and a light ship and a powerful engine.
Where the blue line and the green line intersect is where the current "non-turbo" max would be. 50-75 m/s.
It would be rather neat if you could modify the ship construction area to have a "performance" tab, changing out the battery, the engines, and your ship and its equipped items. You could make the changes and see the new powercurve in realtime, to fine tune your ship to your style.
For example, if you're a jouster in PvP, you'd want a high-torque engine with a fast recharge battery so you can make quick accels/decels in jousting combat. If you're a trader, you want a heavy charge battery with the highest sustained torque / speed.
This could be neat. I like this idea a lot.
My preference would be to set the 'non-turbo' speeds higher, but have a 1:1 drain:speed point thats below the max non-turbo.
for our hypothetical 140m/s cruising speed have drain = usage at around 90m/s, with a small drain (graduated up to a drain of 10/second maybe at each +5 speed over 90 costing 1 drain) for going above that.
then allow turbo to function basically as it does now, a powerful thrust at a higher acceleration that uses a set amount of drain and allows the higher turbo speeds we allready have. (for our hypothetical ship 210m/s with turbo, no maneuvering and a drain of say 70.)
Infiniturbo ships would have a 1:1 drain:speed ratio at max speed, turbo would just allow them to exceed that speed without being able to turn.
This way there is a definite advantage to turbo, (higher speeds and higher acceleration) without the ability to maneuver as much.
for our hypothetical 140m/s cruising speed have drain = usage at around 90m/s, with a small drain (graduated up to a drain of 10/second maybe at each +5 speed over 90 costing 1 drain) for going above that.
then allow turbo to function basically as it does now, a powerful thrust at a higher acceleration that uses a set amount of drain and allows the higher turbo speeds we allready have. (for our hypothetical ship 210m/s with turbo, no maneuvering and a drain of say 70.)
Infiniturbo ships would have a 1:1 drain:speed ratio at max speed, turbo would just allow them to exceed that speed without being able to turn.
This way there is a definite advantage to turbo, (higher speeds and higher acceleration) without the ability to maneuver as much.
LeberMac said, "I can envision having different powercurves for different engines and/or ships."
Now there is a perfect application for the crafting skill/activity that is supposed to be on the way.
Now there is a perfect application for the crafting skill/activity that is supposed to be on the way.
Yeah yeah, Incarnate, as long as you think it's good, I'll be damn sure it's good (except for the fact that avalons aren't buyable...that really reallly sucks, if you change turbo, PUT THOSE AVALONS BACK IN PLEASE!)
My brainstorm on turbo:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11481
Basically, I'm for removing the frictional force so it doesn't feel like you have a rubber band attached to your ship. If you boost up to 140 m/s, you stay going 140 m/s, but turbo would be much more costly in order to limit travel vectors.
That would (hopefully) result in a similar functionality to being able to choose your cruise speed.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11481
Basically, I'm for removing the frictional force so it doesn't feel like you have a rubber band attached to your ship. If you boost up to 140 m/s, you stay going 140 m/s, but turbo would be much more costly in order to limit travel vectors.
That would (hopefully) result in a similar functionality to being able to choose your cruise speed.
Incarnate: Love it.
My only concern is that the recharge rate drain from the engines will result in us ending up with a lot more flare/swarm users that don't have to worry about balancing speed with weapon use, as opposed to the energy users who have to space out their shots a lot more.
(If we're wrong, you'd probably best post a correction before we take an assumption and blow it out of proportion.)
My only concern is that the recharge rate drain from the engines will result in us ending up with a lot more flare/swarm users that don't have to worry about balancing speed with weapon use, as opposed to the energy users who have to space out their shots a lot more.
(If we're wrong, you'd probably best post a correction before we take an assumption and blow it out of proportion.)
Sounds great Incarnate
Great Idea, I'm FOR IT!
im for it.
Very interesting. It would change up not only combat, but racing as well. It wouldn't just be a mad dash with turbo to a wormhole. Different pilots would have different startegies balancing time, recharge and speed.
[APPROVE]
[APPROVE]