Forums » Suggestions
Having "bigger consequences" means less having less fun and probably doing more chores. Building a nest egg in VO isn't hard, but it still takes time and effort. As it's setup now, if you die, it gets tallied, then you click "But back last ship" and jump back in. Do it enough, you will burn through your funds and tank you statistics (if you even care). And that is how it should be, fast, easy, and doesn't impede on anyones fun more than it has to.
That aside, a timer is needed on /explode simply because it has been frequently exploited. I would go so far as to require confirmation (via dialog) followed by a 30 second countdown, nullified by any activity, including being shot or moving. This would eliminate it as a combat option, but allow players to still use it for other purposes.
Or you could remove it from the game completely and force traders to actually fly back or plow into something really hard...
That aside, a timer is needed on /explode simply because it has been frequently exploited. I would go so far as to require confirmation (via dialog) followed by a 30 second countdown, nullified by any activity, including being shot or moving. This would eliminate it as a combat option, but allow players to still use it for other purposes.
Or you could remove it from the game completely and force traders to actually fly back or plow into something really hard...
imo player kills should be treated similarly to bot kills. When multiple people damage a bot they split the XP based on how much damage they did. Similarly I think people should split the XP gain of killing other players based on the amount of damage they did, suicides of any time should simply be counted as damaging yourself (though the suiciding player's % of XP would just go to no one). As for who gets the tally of one more PK it should either be the person who did the most damage or also split proportionally (splitting it might look silly since people would be running around with fractions of kills).
Accidental exploding?
How in heck can the chore of typing /explode be an accident?
If you have a bind to /explode, than you're asking for it. I have one myself, but it's trigger key is so far off the others I use that it's GOT to be a conscious decision to hit it.
Besides, a timer on /explode would not avoid the exploit (or nuisance) of using it as a quick return across the galaxy.
I'd still ratter we have this instead:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/12149#147888
How in heck can the chore of typing /explode be an accident?
If you have a bind to /explode, than you're asking for it. I have one myself, but it's trigger key is so far off the others I use that it's GOT to be a conscious decision to hit it.
Besides, a timer on /explode would not avoid the exploit (or nuisance) of using it as a quick return across the galaxy.
I'd still ratter we have this instead:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/12149#147888
Don't delude yourself, Mogul.
Many unsasvory types have an /explode bind, created for the express purpose of being a jag and denying another player his PK.
Eldrad's idea is quite nice as well, but I dunno how to handle the PK issue. Fractional PK's would be alright I guess.
Many unsasvory types have an /explode bind, created for the express purpose of being a jag and denying another player his PK.
Eldrad's idea is quite nice as well, but I dunno how to handle the PK issue. Fractional PK's would be alright I guess.
For this specific purpose, if a player explodes while engaged, the PK should automatically get to the (last?) attacker if that occurred within a few seconds (probably the same as the double-kill detection thing).
Thats a good idea mouser. I like it. But what if someone /explodes while running? (no hits in a while)
Giving credit to the last attacker opens up the window for another exploitive behavior: Kill Stealing.
In fact, I could have sworn that this type of feature had been implemented at one time and that it was exploited in exactly this way. An experienced player intentionally shooting Oruns while new players were botting IIRC.
In fact, I know this very issue has come up before because the same player I mentioned above was also using the /explode exploit to avoid retribution when other players cornered him, or if he found himself on the loosing end of 1v1.
I think the best solutions are to do one of either:
a) Give any attacking party credit for the kill, so long as they are still in same sector as the target when it dies. In principle, if three people conspire to shoot thier neighbor, all three are guilty of murder, even though only one may have pulled the trigger. (No need for semantic arguments here, I know there are tons of caveats to this statement.)
b) Track damage by person and the person dealing the highest amount of damage to the target gets the credit. Reset this count target docking.
Players using /explode shouldn't count towards the damage calculations in b, nor should damage to yourself (rockets, roid ramming, etc.). Thus if a player grazed the target for 1 damage, then the target escaped and /exploded, the 1 damage player would get the credit since he had dealt the most damage.
Method b was used for kill credit in the game Earth and Beyond and it didn't prevent kill stealing. It made kill stealing a fight to 51% damage before the other guy. This often meant groups of players fighting in packs to steal kills from lone players after he had it about 1/3rd down.
Kill stealing isn't much of a problem now, but it's something to be considered for when VO's population is a bit bigger. It's also important to note that players known to exploit current game mechanics may be willing to intentionally exploit any new countermeasures. Some people simply play to grief other people.
In fact, I could have sworn that this type of feature had been implemented at one time and that it was exploited in exactly this way. An experienced player intentionally shooting Oruns while new players were botting IIRC.
In fact, I know this very issue has come up before because the same player I mentioned above was also using the /explode exploit to avoid retribution when other players cornered him, or if he found himself on the loosing end of 1v1.
I think the best solutions are to do one of either:
a) Give any attacking party credit for the kill, so long as they are still in same sector as the target when it dies. In principle, if three people conspire to shoot thier neighbor, all three are guilty of murder, even though only one may have pulled the trigger. (No need for semantic arguments here, I know there are tons of caveats to this statement.)
b) Track damage by person and the person dealing the highest amount of damage to the target gets the credit. Reset this count target docking.
Players using /explode shouldn't count towards the damage calculations in b, nor should damage to yourself (rockets, roid ramming, etc.). Thus if a player grazed the target for 1 damage, then the target escaped and /exploded, the 1 damage player would get the credit since he had dealt the most damage.
Method b was used for kill credit in the game Earth and Beyond and it didn't prevent kill stealing. It made kill stealing a fight to 51% damage before the other guy. This often meant groups of players fighting in packs to steal kills from lone players after he had it about 1/3rd down.
Kill stealing isn't much of a problem now, but it's something to be considered for when VO's population is a bit bigger. It's also important to note that players known to exploit current game mechanics may be willing to intentionally exploit any new countermeasures. Some people simply play to grief other people.
i don't see anythign wrong with using /explode to deny your oponrnt kills. like any tactic when used too often it gets annoying, but anyone who choses to be involved in PVP is making a volintery choise to play against people who may be jerks. i say if you all will keep whinign about this let tehre be a timer, but don't require that the pilot sit motionless or eneter no input during the countdown. if you can't kill your oponent between when they activate their self destruct and when they actualy explode (after the addition of a timer that is) than you don't realy derirve the kill.
as i see it /explode is a counter to the people who ambush indescrinenately to pump their PK ratings.
as i see it /explode is a counter to the people who ambush indescrinenately to pump their PK ratings.
You go to the nearest station.
The current duel double-kill detection is within 5 seconds I believe (time for rockets or missiles to find their way). Same rule could apply here.
The attacker gets the kill if the runner exploded within n seconds.
Exploder finds his way to nearest dock-able station regardless.
The current duel double-kill detection is within 5 seconds I believe (time for rockets or missiles to find their way). Same rule could apply here.
The attacker gets the kill if the runner exploded within n seconds.
Exploder finds his way to nearest dock-able station regardless.
Lord Q,
Perhaps the wrongness has something to do with the fact that the "jerk" lost, period. And whether or not the "jerk" wants to let his opponent get credit, or act like a jerk and deny it, shouldn't be up to him. It's unfair to the player who earned the credit to let jerks decide if he should get it or not.
As far as being motionless goes, this would eliminate it as a combat option altogether, and put a rest to the exploit forever. You would have to fight to the death, or flee on the merits of your own skill. And since traders wouldn't really be affected by the countdown, I doubt they would care one way or the other.
However, shortly after I posted about being motionless, I gave it second thought. Instead, just make an announcment on the local sector stating the ships "self destruct" status, ("<player> will self destruct in 30 seconds.") giving his attacker some indication that he has to try and beat the timer, or that he should just give up and laugh at the coward instead.
I still prefer the motionless countdown, but at 30 seconds, I realized that exploiters would just do a logoff instead and risk the shorter countdown.
Perhaps the wrongness has something to do with the fact that the "jerk" lost, period. And whether or not the "jerk" wants to let his opponent get credit, or act like a jerk and deny it, shouldn't be up to him. It's unfair to the player who earned the credit to let jerks decide if he should get it or not.
As far as being motionless goes, this would eliminate it as a combat option altogether, and put a rest to the exploit forever. You would have to fight to the death, or flee on the merits of your own skill. And since traders wouldn't really be affected by the countdown, I doubt they would care one way or the other.
However, shortly after I posted about being motionless, I gave it second thought. Instead, just make an announcment on the local sector stating the ships "self destruct" status, ("<player> will self destruct in 30 seconds.") giving his attacker some indication that he has to try and beat the timer, or that he should just give up and laugh at the coward instead.
I still prefer the motionless countdown, but at 30 seconds, I realized that exploiters would just do a logoff instead and risk the shorter countdown.
Ok, you want to fix explode exploit? Just make it count against you by lowering your xp by a hundred points. And if its done more than twice within an hour, make it go up to 500 xp, and etc etc etc. Or maybe Everytime you do it the xp you lose in... combatgoes up by 10, 100, 1000, 10,000.
The same person I mentioned above for exploiting /explode in combat also was willing to take an XP hit to kill new players as they undocked from stations. He also frequently used low level alts in gray space to attack experinced players, and force them to loose XP defending themselves.
Simply put, players intent on being jerks won't care if there is a XP penalty or not. As gameplay is based on skill, it won't actually hurt thier tactics. These players also don't typically fly the high end ships, so the XP hit won't cut them off from anything they actually use. Finally, CF XP isn't hard to earn by botting until you have to start stringing more consecutive kills at higher levels to get the bonuses.
Simply put, players intent on being jerks won't care if there is a XP penalty or not. As gameplay is based on skill, it won't actually hurt thier tactics. These players also don't typically fly the high end ships, so the XP hit won't cut them off from anything they actually use. Finally, CF XP isn't hard to earn by botting until you have to start stringing more consecutive kills at higher levels to get the bonuses.
I find /explode to be a great method of kamakazee! simply fly by the unexpected victim and unleash the bomb.... worked well with the cap ships when I ran out of missiles.....
MechaDragonX,
but the problem is that /exploder may not be the jerk in the scenario. for example Player A is new player who gets attacked by Player B (a PVP jock working on his PK badges). Player A dies and respawns, he then continues on his merry way 'till he runs into player B again. Player B attacks again. This situation repeats perioticly, so eventualy Player A decides that he doesn't want to fuel Player B's PK count. so the next time he takes fire from player B he /explodes. no credit for Player B. after a couple more encounters Player B would hopefully figure out that Player A will do this every time, and stop waisting the effort. if not, at least he isn't profiting from his n00b hunting.
in that scenario Player A is being dogged by somone who is causing trouble and he uses a game mechanic that is available to him in order to punish the jerk who keep attacking him, just becuase he is there.
There are also RP reasons to /explode. If you are flying a top secret (read natgion specific) ship in a military action behinde enemy lines (BP), many governments would rather their soldiers destroy their ships themselves than risk damaged vessels falling into enemy hands.
the insentive to not /explode should stem from grate consequences from death in general. after all why do any soldiers get captured in reality? because they would rather not die. untill there is a reason to prefer living over dying in VO there will ba many many broken things about the game.
you can make using /explode more difficult by adding a timer, but as has been pointed out if logging out is easier peoiple will just do that instead.
but the problem is that /exploder may not be the jerk in the scenario. for example Player A is new player who gets attacked by Player B (a PVP jock working on his PK badges). Player A dies and respawns, he then continues on his merry way 'till he runs into player B again. Player B attacks again. This situation repeats perioticly, so eventualy Player A decides that he doesn't want to fuel Player B's PK count. so the next time he takes fire from player B he /explodes. no credit for Player B. after a couple more encounters Player B would hopefully figure out that Player A will do this every time, and stop waisting the effort. if not, at least he isn't profiting from his n00b hunting.
in that scenario Player A is being dogged by somone who is causing trouble and he uses a game mechanic that is available to him in order to punish the jerk who keep attacking him, just becuase he is there.
There are also RP reasons to /explode. If you are flying a top secret (read natgion specific) ship in a military action behinde enemy lines (BP), many governments would rather their soldiers destroy their ships themselves than risk damaged vessels falling into enemy hands.
the insentive to not /explode should stem from grate consequences from death in general. after all why do any soldiers get captured in reality? because they would rather not die. untill there is a reason to prefer living over dying in VO there will ba many many broken things about the game.
you can make using /explode more difficult by adding a timer, but as has been pointed out if logging out is easier peoiple will just do that instead.
just make /explode unbindable...
just typing it would require some form of delay...
just typing it would require some form of delay...
Lord Q, if he;s coming back to the same place, and not changing course, ect ect ect, then he deservs to be repeatedly blasted, stop being so lame, piracy and pking IS a part of this game, deniying someone a player kill in ANY circumstance is pure wrong.
Lord Q,
The player always has the option to run instead of fighting. Otherwise, the scenario you have described is the way this game is played.
However, if player B is consitently camping the player A, this falls under some provisions in the Rules of Conduct for harrassment.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/h/conduct.html
Rule of Conduct, No. 1. And clarified in Section 1.1, Part 2.
Edit: Typos
The player always has the option to run instead of fighting. Otherwise, the scenario you have described is the way this game is played.
However, if player B is consitently camping the player A, this falls under some provisions in the Rules of Conduct for harrassment.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/h/conduct.html
Rule of Conduct, No. 1. And clarified in Section 1.1, Part 2.
Edit: Typos
Okay, I'm all for the 10-second timer, but I don't think it should be disrupted by movement - it should simply disable all controls for the duration of the 10-second countdown, so with the exception of a countdown abort, you would be unable to do anything during the countdown sequence. Main reason for this is that if you really -were- stuck somewhere, it could very well get interrupted by contact or control failure (one of the reasons I'll use /explode - my joystick goes crazy and I can no longer control the craft or stop moving)
and it's not an exploit - it's a feature.
and it's not an exploit - it's a feature.
yodaofborg,
i disagree, denying your opoinent a kill is a legitamate tactic that has been part of war for centuries.
MechaDragonX,
piracy is part of the game, but /exploding doesn't hinder piracy (the cargo will still be there just as if the attacker had killed the trader). the only thing that is hindered is PK fishing, and PK based mission triggers (and i think denying your oponent kills in tose scenarios is just part of the game just like getting attacked repetedly on trade routs is justr part of the game)
as for the option to run: you try running from somone when you're flying a bus.
like i have said, there is nothing wrong witn a brief timer (say 10 seconds) but more inportantly discourage /exploding by adding consequences for dying in general. that way you can't activate /explode just before that last flare hits you, (because of the timer) and if you can stay alive for the 10 seconds you may be less eger to commit suacide (as your death may not be assured if you keep fighting, or try to run).
that will reduce the "exploiting" of the /explode feature, without eliminating it as an option in the event of controle failyer, or exploration induced stranding.
i disagree, denying your opoinent a kill is a legitamate tactic that has been part of war for centuries.
MechaDragonX,
piracy is part of the game, but /exploding doesn't hinder piracy (the cargo will still be there just as if the attacker had killed the trader). the only thing that is hindered is PK fishing, and PK based mission triggers (and i think denying your oponent kills in tose scenarios is just part of the game just like getting attacked repetedly on trade routs is justr part of the game)
as for the option to run: you try running from somone when you're flying a bus.
like i have said, there is nothing wrong witn a brief timer (say 10 seconds) but more inportantly discourage /exploding by adding consequences for dying in general. that way you can't activate /explode just before that last flare hits you, (because of the timer) and if you can stay alive for the 10 seconds you may be less eger to commit suacide (as your death may not be assured if you keep fighting, or try to run).
that will reduce the "exploiting" of the /explode feature, without eliminating it as an option in the event of controle failyer, or exploration induced stranding.
consequences for dying = bad
consequenses for issuing = okay, but shouldn't be a real hinderance.
We need to prevent exploiting of the /explode feature in combat by making it not -work- in combat. Have a 10-second timer, during which all controls (excepting an abort) are disabled, and turbo is disengaged. If you can't kill an /exploder in that time, you wouldn't catch them anyway if they decided to run rather than /explode - as it is, /explode is only an emergency way out for them when they want to deny the kill and don't have time to run.
The other possibility is to just make sure that /exploding in combat will not deny the other player their XP/PK - divide up XP based on percentage of non-self-inflicted damage dealt, and give the last person to damage them (if in the same sector) the PK. This is preferable to taking it out altogether with a timer, because it would allow for kamakaze maneuvers such as using your damaged ship as a bomb to deliver a final blow to an opponent - it would come out as a double-KO.
consequenses for issuing = okay, but shouldn't be a real hinderance.
We need to prevent exploiting of the /explode feature in combat by making it not -work- in combat. Have a 10-second timer, during which all controls (excepting an abort) are disabled, and turbo is disengaged. If you can't kill an /exploder in that time, you wouldn't catch them anyway if they decided to run rather than /explode - as it is, /explode is only an emergency way out for them when they want to deny the kill and don't have time to run.
The other possibility is to just make sure that /exploding in combat will not deny the other player their XP/PK - divide up XP based on percentage of non-self-inflicted damage dealt, and give the last person to damage them (if in the same sector) the PK. This is preferable to taking it out altogether with a timer, because it would allow for kamakaze maneuvers such as using your damaged ship as a bomb to deliver a final blow to an opponent - it would come out as a double-KO.