Forums » Suggestions
[original suggestion deleted as per spellcast's suggestion. It was a dumb idea anyway. Beolach's is better]:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11697#139869
Basically, the suggestion goes like this:
For every 50,000 cumulative xp earned, your character gets one "talent point" which they can spend on one of the five licenses. Each talent point grants a 5% bonus to the rate at which xp is gained in that license. The character would start with 2 talent points spent during the creation process, and could earn up to 12 in all.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11697#139869
Basically, the suggestion goes like this:
For every 50,000 cumulative xp earned, your character gets one "talent point" which they can spend on one of the five licenses. Each talent point grants a 5% bonus to the rate at which xp is gained in that license. The character would start with 2 talent points spent during the creation process, and could earn up to 12 in all.
no
BAD idea IMO.
while this approach works very well for fantasy RPG's or even for modern rpg's where a character is actually performing an action with the skill it just doesn't make any sense in a game where your primary avatar is a SHIP.
Once crafting is added I could see having something like talent points for crafting, giving you the ability to squeeze a tiny bit of performance out of a part by CRAFTING it to work better (kind of like you can tweak a combustion engine to make it produce more HP by boring out the cylinders and putting new pistons in)
However as far as I am concerned that should take both time, materiels AND a base part, making it a 1 shot item.. when the ship dies.. it goes.
additionally even if they were to go with your suggestion, each level of talent would need to at least double the prior # of talent points. the first 5% costs 1, the second 5% costs an additional 2, (3 total) 5% again costs 4, (7 total) that way nothing ever gets more than 15% boost.
(otherwise can you imagine a ship with 60% thrust boost?)
BAD idea IMO.
while this approach works very well for fantasy RPG's or even for modern rpg's where a character is actually performing an action with the skill it just doesn't make any sense in a game where your primary avatar is a SHIP.
Once crafting is added I could see having something like talent points for crafting, giving you the ability to squeeze a tiny bit of performance out of a part by CRAFTING it to work better (kind of like you can tweak a combustion engine to make it produce more HP by boring out the cylinders and putting new pistons in)
However as far as I am concerned that should take both time, materiels AND a base part, making it a 1 shot item.. when the ship dies.. it goes.
additionally even if they were to go with your suggestion, each level of talent would need to at least double the prior # of talent points. the first 5% costs 1, the second 5% costs an additional 2, (3 total) 5% again costs 4, (7 total) that way nothing ever gets more than 15% boost.
(otherwise can you imagine a ship with 60% thrust boost?)
yes. unber. leeeet.
if it gave 1% boost, or 2 % boost, IMO, tis' is a good idea.
just lower the %'s a bit
you see spellcast, just cuz' some dumbass has ship'd'**** 101, doesn't mean he's going to kill a bus. it might really help, someone who has been playing and leveled heavy weps to max has played a ton with heavy weps...so he knows where to hit, just a meter more or less ect, as long as it doesn't go higher then 10% it'd be really good, we need more charectorizing in VO.
if it gave 1% boost, or 2 % boost, IMO, tis' is a good idea.
just lower the %'s a bit
you see spellcast, just cuz' some dumbass has ship'd'**** 101, doesn't mean he's going to kill a bus. it might really help, someone who has been playing and leveled heavy weps to max has played a ton with heavy weps...so he knows where to hit, just a meter more or less ect, as long as it doesn't go higher then 10% it'd be really good, we need more charectorizing in VO.
I'm with spellcast on this one.
it would work with trading, but anything else would be lame
I guess I wouldn't mind some kind of levels, as long as they are just a "little bit" so say like getting to level 20 mining gives you 10% boost in mining. Trading, same, etc.
But keep aiming and dodging and speed twitch-only.
Don't forget economic transactions - high trade level will help with that. What about crafting? how will that be affected?
[EDIT oh hell *IS* this a troll Phaser? It's REALLY unlike you]
But keep aiming and dodging and speed twitch-only.
Don't forget economic transactions - high trade level will help with that. What about crafting? how will that be affected?
[EDIT oh hell *IS* this a troll Phaser? It's REALLY unlike you]
How about instead of giving talent points based on exp. how about giving a boost % based on the level of the skill. Say you get a 2% boost at lvl 3. 5% at 5. 7% at 10. and 10% at 12. 13% at 15. and finally 15% at 18. You can keep the current boost traits such as the Combat boost gives you extra thrust. Or extra damage for Light and Heavy.
the real question is to what extent we wish to seperate between the player and the character. right now, VO has no real distinction. the character can't do anything the player can't do. if the player sucks at combat, the character will too, no matter the level / ship. the question is if we wish to change this for trading / mining / crafting / cap ship piloting and so on.
combat *is* twitch in VO, after getting some distance, I've come to the conclusion that this is a bad thing for RP and a similarly bad thing for immersion, but it's a good thing for the game. you can't have it all, so you pick your good points I suppose. and VO has a unique combat system that is the backbone of the game today.
but, for crafting, do we want to have the players solve technical riddles to craft items? to what extent do we want to make the player responsible for other parts of the game compared to combat? how does finding this balance affect the possibilities of RP and the underlying feeling of playing the game?
I don't really feel that this has been brought up. it's *really* hard to combine good RP while holding an almost equality between the player and the character(s). on the other side we don't want to change the combat model, so, uhm, what do we do? or rather, what does Guild do? what do the devs think?
combat *is* twitch in VO, after getting some distance, I've come to the conclusion that this is a bad thing for RP and a similarly bad thing for immersion, but it's a good thing for the game. you can't have it all, so you pick your good points I suppose. and VO has a unique combat system that is the backbone of the game today.
but, for crafting, do we want to have the players solve technical riddles to craft items? to what extent do we want to make the player responsible for other parts of the game compared to combat? how does finding this balance affect the possibilities of RP and the underlying feeling of playing the game?
I don't really feel that this has been brought up. it's *really* hard to combine good RP while holding an almost equality between the player and the character(s). on the other side we don't want to change the combat model, so, uhm, what do we do? or rather, what does Guild do? what do the devs think?
I'm gonna hope for the best and say this thread is a troll.
Fingers crossed and everything.
Fingers crossed and everything.
To maybe address Spellcast's objection, how about having the talent points not affect the performance of anything, but rather affect how quickly the character gains experience? Say each talant point attached to one of the 5 skills increases the amount of XP earned in that skill by 5%, so if I put both my starting talent points on Combat, for each 10 points of Combat XP I gained I would gain an additional point for having the two talent points attached to combat.
ok Beolach.. now THAT i could live with, and actually wouldnt mind seeing. It's simple. It's elegant. It gives benefit and personalization but it provides no superb advantage that is hard to explain.
It becomes especially prominent once all the seperate parts that we currently have are tied together and guild starts to advertize, because new players coming into the game will be able to choose a "specialization" and actually feel that they are getting a reward for choosing it. (they will level up faster)
it also allows for ease of expansion.. we could keep the basic 5 skills and add talents that correspond to the 5 skills:
combat, light, heavy, trade, mining - increase XP earned when using these skills
plus others such as:
crafting - decrease the time it takes to make/modify items
diplomacy - talent points spent here affect how quickly you gain reputation
bartering - get a discount on station purchases and strike a better deal when selling to a station.
maybe longer term:
repair - each talent point spent on repair allows you to repair XXX damage per 30 seconds spent motionless in space. might be useful once we have exploration and the like where a player could end up in an uncharted area and not near a station. would have to be capped at a certain total amount of repairs.. say 50% of total ship hull?
explore - points spent in this give you a chance to notice theres a hidden wormhole nearby, you're sensitive to the subtle gravity eddy's or something.
Focus shield - ITANI - allows you to raise an energy shield for (2? 3? 5?) seconds per point spent in this? would probably require a minimum character level and the completion of a certain mission tree to get access to?
dammit i'm wandering off on a tangent. anyhow
I can certaintly see where some characters might be able to progress faster in certain areas (ever hear of a natural pilot :) ) they get better equipment faster.. but the equipment itself is the same as everyone else can use.
It becomes especially prominent once all the seperate parts that we currently have are tied together and guild starts to advertize, because new players coming into the game will be able to choose a "specialization" and actually feel that they are getting a reward for choosing it. (they will level up faster)
it also allows for ease of expansion.. we could keep the basic 5 skills and add talents that correspond to the 5 skills:
combat, light, heavy, trade, mining - increase XP earned when using these skills
plus others such as:
crafting - decrease the time it takes to make/modify items
diplomacy - talent points spent here affect how quickly you gain reputation
bartering - get a discount on station purchases and strike a better deal when selling to a station.
maybe longer term:
repair - each talent point spent on repair allows you to repair XXX damage per 30 seconds spent motionless in space. might be useful once we have exploration and the like where a player could end up in an uncharted area and not near a station. would have to be capped at a certain total amount of repairs.. say 50% of total ship hull?
explore - points spent in this give you a chance to notice theres a hidden wormhole nearby, you're sensitive to the subtle gravity eddy's or something.
Focus shield - ITANI - allows you to raise an energy shield for (2? 3? 5?) seconds per point spent in this? would probably require a minimum character level and the completion of a certain mission tree to get access to?
dammit i'm wandering off on a tangent. anyhow
I can certaintly see where some characters might be able to progress faster in certain areas (ever hear of a natural pilot :) ) they get better equipment faster.. but the equipment itself is the same as everyone else can use.
Along these lines, it would be interesting to see better weapons offered to players who have gained some mastery with them.
Much as Alamar was rewarded for his specialization in rails (all beautiful 500 of them) with the adv rails, so also should players who have taken the time to learn weaps gain access to more interesting versions of them.
Blasters with higher damage and higher speed, but with a lower refire rate (than even regular posis, require excellent accuracy)
Rockets that have alternate proximity cones.
Missiles that are faster and require targetting locks.
Let people specialize in the weaps that they like, and then Promote that.
Much as Alamar was rewarded for his specialization in rails (all beautiful 500 of them) with the adv rails, so also should players who have taken the time to learn weaps gain access to more interesting versions of them.
Blasters with higher damage and higher speed, but with a lower refire rate (than even regular posis, require excellent accuracy)
Rockets that have alternate proximity cones.
Missiles that are faster and require targetting locks.
Let people specialize in the weaps that they like, and then Promote that.
let me just say that the current PK rewards are, uhm, silly. they bare *no* semblance to the tasks the players who get there have shown. the *only* argument is that the rail is a decent duelist weapon, but even that's no reason to make it a PK reward.
what I would *like* to see is getting weaponry from missions, like use the rail MkI to kill 10 Artemis collectors, 10 TyCorps, 5 players. you'll then be given rails MkII -- by the faction you did the mission with. this sort of setup would be required for *all* weapons and ships, but apart from the very top stuff, requireing PKs should be avoided.
this would also make the traditional griding a lot more diverse, since you have short term goals as well. you don't just need combat XP to gain access to stuff, you also need kills to do so.
not all factions provide all weaponry, not all factions provide all upgrades, some upgrades require high standings as well.
as for talent points, well, a setup like what I'd suggested would make talent points *explicit* and shown in your choice of weaponry and so on. it's not some magical thing that makes you better, it's work turned directly into rewards. you could easily make your mission to perform certain kills (or, mining to get better beams) offer you a choice of rewards, rails MkII or N2s? pick one!
in effect, you're spending "talent points" upon specializing in either weapon. later, you kill more crap and pick if you want to spend a few of those kills to get rail MkIIs this time (you took the N2s last time) or if you want to keep the kills to eventually get the N3 they're offering...
this would take a long time to "complete", which would be *good*. you get progression quickly, but at the same time, you have to do it a lot of places and the challenge would be to not just offer kill-stuff-missions to get what you want. maybe escort missions gives you access to the Hornet Convoy Guardian?
so, uhm, instead of having "magical talent points" in a twitch game like VO, make actions and leveling have more rewards.
what I would *like* to see is getting weaponry from missions, like use the rail MkI to kill 10 Artemis collectors, 10 TyCorps, 5 players. you'll then be given rails MkII -- by the faction you did the mission with. this sort of setup would be required for *all* weapons and ships, but apart from the very top stuff, requireing PKs should be avoided.
this would also make the traditional griding a lot more diverse, since you have short term goals as well. you don't just need combat XP to gain access to stuff, you also need kills to do so.
not all factions provide all weaponry, not all factions provide all upgrades, some upgrades require high standings as well.
as for talent points, well, a setup like what I'd suggested would make talent points *explicit* and shown in your choice of weaponry and so on. it's not some magical thing that makes you better, it's work turned directly into rewards. you could easily make your mission to perform certain kills (or, mining to get better beams) offer you a choice of rewards, rails MkII or N2s? pick one!
in effect, you're spending "talent points" upon specializing in either weapon. later, you kill more crap and pick if you want to spend a few of those kills to get rail MkIIs this time (you took the N2s last time) or if you want to keep the kills to eventually get the N3 they're offering...
this would take a long time to "complete", which would be *good*. you get progression quickly, but at the same time, you have to do it a lot of places and the challenge would be to not just offer kill-stuff-missions to get what you want. maybe escort missions gives you access to the Hornet Convoy Guardian?
so, uhm, instead of having "magical talent points" in a twitch game like VO, make actions and leveling have more rewards.
This is some really good discussion, thanks people. I think the underlying question here is: is it really "You" flying the ship or is there a third-party "character" whose actions you are representing?
I'm not sure which is better for RP or immersion... the first would be along the lines of a virtual world or so-called "virtual reality" whereas the second would be more the traditional RPG approach.
If we are trying to create the impression of a character whose actions you represent, then I think there should be something beyond just what ship you fly and what equipment you have to signify your character's abilities. If Guild is going for more of a First Person "VR" experience, then they are on the right track.
I'm not sure which is better for RP or immersion... the first would be along the lines of a virtual world or so-called "virtual reality" whereas the second would be more the traditional RPG approach.
If we are trying to create the impression of a character whose actions you represent, then I think there should be something beyond just what ship you fly and what equipment you have to signify your character's abilities. If Guild is going for more of a First Person "VR" experience, then they are on the right track.
I didn't realy like this idea in the beginning of the thread, but it grew very interesting after a few posts. Specially Spellcasts last post got my attention. Lots of interesting posibilities in here, that could draw some more pure rpg players into the game too.
Hello,
a bite of dull theory :)
Long ago I found an essay about player stereotypes. It can be found at http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm
In nutshell: There are 4 different player types (achievers, explorers, socialisers and killers or with card terms: Diamonds, Spades, Hearts, Clubs).
Until now the VO satisfied only Hearts and Clubs.
Missions are for Spades.
A good skill/talent system will make happy the Diamonds.
The game should give something to each of them.
-------------------------
The four things that people typically enjoyed personally about MUDs were:
i) Achievement within the game context.
Players give themselves game-related goals, and vigorously set out to achieve them. This usually means accumulating and disposing of large quantities of high-value treasure, or cutting a swathe through hordes of mobiles (ie. monsters built in to the virtual world).
ii) Exploration of the game.
Players try to find out as much as they can about the virtual world. Although initially this means mapping its topology (ie. exploring the MUD's breadth), later it advances to experimentation with its physics (ie. exploring the MUD's depth).
iii) Socialising with others.
Players use the game's communicative facilities, and apply the role-playing that these engender, as a context in which to converse (and otherwise interact) with their fellow players.
iv) Imposition upon others.
Players use the tools provided by the game to cause distress to (or, in rare circumstances, to help) other players. Where permitted, this usually involves acquiring some weapon and applying it enthusiastically to the persona of another player in the game world.
a bite of dull theory :)
Long ago I found an essay about player stereotypes. It can be found at http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm
In nutshell: There are 4 different player types (achievers, explorers, socialisers and killers or with card terms: Diamonds, Spades, Hearts, Clubs).
Until now the VO satisfied only Hearts and Clubs.
Missions are for Spades.
A good skill/talent system will make happy the Diamonds.
The game should give something to each of them.
-------------------------
The four things that people typically enjoyed personally about MUDs were:
i) Achievement within the game context.
Players give themselves game-related goals, and vigorously set out to achieve them. This usually means accumulating and disposing of large quantities of high-value treasure, or cutting a swathe through hordes of mobiles (ie. monsters built in to the virtual world).
ii) Exploration of the game.
Players try to find out as much as they can about the virtual world. Although initially this means mapping its topology (ie. exploring the MUD's breadth), later it advances to experimentation with its physics (ie. exploring the MUD's depth).
iii) Socialising with others.
Players use the game's communicative facilities, and apply the role-playing that these engender, as a context in which to converse (and otherwise interact) with their fellow players.
iv) Imposition upon others.
Players use the tools provided by the game to cause distress to (or, in rare circumstances, to help) other players. Where permitted, this usually involves acquiring some weapon and applying it enthusiastically to the persona of another player in the game world.
Personally, I prefer the 'Me flying the ship' rather than the 'my character flying the ship' approach... however this is obviously not for everyone. I hope a happy medium can be found that caters to both kinds of players.
I like how the initial idea has progressed, and it looks like it's moving in a good direction. My biggest concern in all of this is that any players' natural skill should not be outweighed by someone who's sat and grinded for higher levels for countless hours just to get the little bonusses that come with it.
That's not to say that I don't agree with rewards, I don't agree with arbitrary progression (increases in percentages, ratios, etc just because someone has done X things Y times). The license system facilitates the reward for progression... each license is increasingly harder to get, however you are rewarded with better equipment which gives you the ability to take on larger challenges to continue progressing while still increasing your own skill.
I think the core problem is that the higher-level players have reached a ceiling. Their licenses are high.. in the 10's and 11's... and there is nothing out there to expedite further progression. Increasing damage, efficiencies, and speeds of things by small percentages isn't going to magically open up that ceiling. More challenges (like Leviathans) and new tools to meet those challenges are required, and I believe that is where the solution to this issue lies.
- T.K.Jode
I like how the initial idea has progressed, and it looks like it's moving in a good direction. My biggest concern in all of this is that any players' natural skill should not be outweighed by someone who's sat and grinded for higher levels for countless hours just to get the little bonusses that come with it.
That's not to say that I don't agree with rewards, I don't agree with arbitrary progression (increases in percentages, ratios, etc just because someone has done X things Y times). The license system facilitates the reward for progression... each license is increasingly harder to get, however you are rewarded with better equipment which gives you the ability to take on larger challenges to continue progressing while still increasing your own skill.
I think the core problem is that the higher-level players have reached a ceiling. Their licenses are high.. in the 10's and 11's... and there is nothing out there to expedite further progression. Increasing damage, efficiencies, and speeds of things by small percentages isn't going to magically open up that ceiling. More challenges (like Leviathans) and new tools to meet those challenges are required, and I believe that is where the solution to this issue lies.
- T.K.Jode
Um, Darvud, I disagree with that classification, as it applies to MUD's where killing people is less of a skillbased routine.
I consider myself both a killer and a socializer.
I consider myself both a killer and a socializer.
You'll not be stereotyping me! I refuse to fit easily into any category!
Hello,
@LeberMac,Shape: There are no borders between categories. Myself jump between stereotypes. I play all of them but most of time I explore or socialize. IMHO the endless self development is as boring as killing same ppl with same strategy. :)
The essay tries to highlight the main directions. You are free to disagree with it but can you find a 5th reason why do ppl play a multi-user game?
Regards,
Darkwood
@LeberMac,Shape: There are no borders between categories. Myself jump between stereotypes. I play all of them but most of time I explore or socialize. IMHO the endless self development is as boring as killing same ppl with same strategy. :)
The essay tries to highlight the main directions. You are free to disagree with it but can you find a 5th reason why do ppl play a multi-user game?
Regards,
Darkwood