Hi,

@TKjode: the game is an idealized world.
If you practice how to fligh with a fighter you'll be skilled. The game does not want you to face impossible challenges. So it should measure your skill somehow to tailore the missions/tasks at you.
... if an other player spends same amount of time practicing he would like to be as skilled as you. But if he is less gifted then he has no chance to win against you. Then why should he start to play at all?

Regards,

Darkwood

darvud,
I don't think any player who practices a skill like twitch combat "EXPECTS" to be better or worse than another player who practices the same amount. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, and what I'm saying is that I don't want to see someone able to pick me off just because they spent a bunch of time grinding against Arklan guardians and got some substantial arbitrary rewards for it.

The problem IS that there are no impossible challenges once you're up to a certain level. Sure, as a new character, you're not going to be taking on queens in a bus, but it honestly takes very little time at all to ramp up your licenses to get the equipment to do so.

Players MUST face impossible challenges... it gives them something to work toward to become ABLE overcome them, and when they finally do, they are rewarded for it. Those REWARDS should not be ridiculous percentage increases to weapons and speeds because it's a cop-out way of giving them an upper hand in PvP situations. The rewards should be new equipment and access to special missions by utilizing the current license system, like what we have now, but MORE of it to get rid of this skill ceiling we're facing right now.

The devs are already on the virge of releasing the core components to get this stuff done... new mission editor, new hive behavior, and possibly crafting in the near future.

Why should they play at all? Because they CAN!

- T.K.

Hey, if you practice for as long as me, with the same KIND of practice as me, there's a decent chance that we'll have similar strength. But who knows, you might realize that you're strong in a different kind of way.

I enjoy games that force you to realize certain things about the game to advance.

WoW does not require this, and it leads to boredom once a player gets to lvl 60.

I think the very fact that progression is open-ended is a major selling point. People don't have to be the best pvp'er in the game to be satisfied, they just need to know that they will keep getting better. Which they will.

nononononono.
Sorry, but I like the COMPLETELY skill based combat system. That's the only thing that keeps me in this game. I love the fact that there's absolutely NO dice rolling or "I'm a level 42 paladin, and you're only level 41, so boom your dead". The twitch based combat is the main attraction of this game. The thing that REALLY sets it apart. I love it, and I do NOT want to see it change.

I agree with Person on this.

The addition of skills makes battles arbitrary... right now, the only thing you can predict the outcome of a battle with is the opponent's reputation...

and it should stay that way, because that is what makes this game attractive... and unique.

-Zoras

Hi,

I agree, WoW is boring when you reach lvl60. At lvl60 everybody is raiding instances and oposite settlements. I left WoW... but VO is boring for same reason. What do you do here? You have endless duels and hive raids...

As I understand the only measure of your progress/success is money and count of your kills. In this case you do not need any mission nor trade. Just sit on the highroad and kill everybody :)

And last: if its a twitch based game then why do you need licenses? Why do you not allow newbies to buy the uber equipment immediatly?

Regards,

Darkwood

PS: the goal is not important but the path you reach it is.

person, icbm: this is why I like beolach's variation of the idea, the talent points give an advantage in GAINING the xp, not an advantage in combat itself.

for things like crafting, exploration, etc a more traditional RPG setup wont be as big of a deal, particularly if crafting is made to have a time component (a very effective limit as to how many items can be added to the game in a given timeframe) as well as a monetary & materiel one.

darvud: part of the reason VO currently seems concentrated on kills/money is because its still evolving. Thats also the reason that the developers aren't putting a huge amount of effort into marketing the game. (actually they are putting NO effort into marketing)
Many (most) of the long term gameplay elements are only visible in tantalizing bits and pieces, and nothing is interconnected yet.

for a recent discussion of that: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11654

Shape with regards to twich skill:

# WoW does not require this, and it leads to boredom once a
# player gets to lvl 60.

uhm, how many lvl 60 characters do you have? trust me, a good part of the excitement in WoW *starts* at lvl 60. large amounts of stuff are only pracitcally feasable at lvl 60 and only with large good groups of people working *very* skillfully together. unless you have seen or tried this, you probably should refrain from commenting on it.

darvud, if you find running MC or BWL runs is boring, well, then it's not for you. personally, I love the stuff. to me it's quite close to massive chess. you make good pulls, you monitor roamers, you position yourself well, you control terrain, you make swift kills, you combine traits and skills, and you don't have fscking up as an option. look at the way you currently take down Razorgore, it's complete chaos to the casual observer with 40 people dealing with 10-30 minions, but it's a matter of every member of the group doing a job to the letter, one part fails, the RAID falls apart. this kind of group work is something I *really* enjoy, and it's a blast to watch every single run. I've seen a guild wipe nine times in a row on Razorgore, only to get up and try again. a little better every time, but still not quite there. you know it's doable, you know what went wrong, you can bloody well feel it go through, so you try again. addictive? hell yeah.

also, I have killed characters 5-6-7 levels above me in PVP, only due to skill in PVP. any higher diffs than that are very hard to overcome, yeah, but it's not too unlike VO really, if you'd make the Rev C and the IBG combat 8-9-10 (like they should be if we want combat licenses to really mean anything here) and you fought a person that had the default Hog as his best ship with a HX, you have a huge advantage with the AAP Rev C. just like the WoW player has a great advantage in more armor, more damage and better skills.

yeah, if you're lvl 40 in WoW, a lvl 60 *will* kill you. yeah, that is a difference from VO, but, eh, WoW is also defined as you're playing a character. VO still has to make a call on what you're actually playing.

anyway, in VO, licenses exist at the moment. I agree that it's odd and weird, but it's also a case of "choosing what VO wants to be". until that choise is truly made, we'll have discussions like this over and over again.

bumped because I stumbled across it and the idea still has merit.

Having read though the whole thing, I also like the idea of having points that you can add to certain liceses that will give you a % increase to gaining the needed xp, vs. having to do it normally. Very simple. Adds a level of specialization, and does NOT effect a players skill, only how fast they are able to unlock the needed equipment for that particular avenue. One thing I would amend to it though, would be that you only get a finite amount of these points, 5 points total sounds right, so you could put 1 into each license or you could max out one license with 5 points (for a max gain of 25%xp in that area [1pt=5%xp]).

Also, IMHO we are not the "ship" we are the "pilot" of the ship, since we can change our ship at any given time. And the license system backs this up, because we are not gaining in mark varients, we are gaining licenses to get new ships as a pilot.

And last but not least, I would much prefer to see each and ever weapon, ship, battery or piece of equipment have it's own license (or call it something new like competancy rating, etc.) so that if you don't use it, you don't unlock the higher varients. For example, you like light weapons, so you work up your light weapon license to 8, so now you have every "base" model available to you, but to get the neutron blaster MKII you need to gain experience by "using" that particular blaster and gain x amount of lightweapons xp while using it. So the LXP would be used twice, once for your base light weapons license but also in the particular weapon being used at the time the xp was earned.

I like Beolach's idea with Spellcast's add-ons; John's idea about the availability of weapons, though... bleech! Let the Licenses speak for availability, leave actual use of a weapon out of it. By his system, you'd have to buy and own a 2004 Nissan Maxima for a while (to name one example) before someone will sell you the 2005 model; does that make any sense? NO.

these aren't comercial vehicles for just anyone to drive, these are highly dangerous space ships and weapons that should only be put into the hands of qualified operators. If you don't have the license for it, what makes you qualified to use it. Getting the basic level up gets you access to every base model, the only diff is that once your good with a specific ship or weapon you get more advanced models of it.

no.

because I did not join VO to play a game that's like every other dumbass RPG out there.

this is a twitch-based game. You acquire skills, and you use them. The talent you have is what you bring in to the game, and should never be assigned by the game.

Spell, it never had merit... you should have just let it lie.

My original idea was crappy, Beolach's modification was good. (I don't know what I was thinking when I made this thread)

Bealoach's suggestion doesn't involve any artificial augmentation of ship capabilities, merely a way to boost xp gain in certain licenses.

Given the exponential increase in xp between licenses, this may not be a bad idea. You get to choose which licenses your character learns faster, while remaining directly responsible for prowess in combat.

God, no. The absolutely biggest strength of VO is that it makes no distinction between character and player. Please, let this be. I want this game to be ALL skill, something that is SO rare. Perhaps even unique among MMORPGs. (Licences doesn't break this principle, as they only control equipment availability, and not how you handle that equipment.)

And darvud, while I certainly respect your opinion, I would be happy if you never ever posted a suggestion again :-D It's not that they are bad. They certainly aren't. But they would take VO in the opposite direction of everything that I enjoy in the game.

(And regarding experience versus being gifted: I doubt that I will ever reach the same levels of skill as people like Martin, the adv rail guy and the like, regardless of how much I practice. I might, but then again, I might not. And in no way does this lessen any of the experience of VO. And since realism is a big part of VO, of course there should be impossible challenges. As well as those you can never hope to defeat. It only adds to immersion. It might even make the game even more enjoyable, since there will be so much to strive towards.)

EDIT: Just saw Phaserlights modification of his own idea. THAT I can dig. Faster license progression would be a great way to incorporate some sort of character advancement and avatar-based skill (as opposed to player-based skill), without impacting the player skill aspect of VO in the slightest.

heh, Phaser... maybe you should delete your original post and replace it with a link to beo's suggestion since no-one seems to be reading the whole thread.

thread-readage =P

selective XP augmentation might be cool... but yes, the original suggestion sucked - why not go replace it =P

EDIT:
That said, I still don't dig some of the suggestions you threw out there (repair, sheild, etc...) because it will create lasting repercussions in aspects of the game. XP/license boosts are fine, because while it gives you an opportunity to expidite aspects of your level gain, it doesn't generate any imbalance, and the only real difference it makes is the amount of time you need to spend earnign XP in areas - something that can be worked around and fixed by spending more time... there's nothing to lose in your choice. We don't EVER want to lock a player in to a limited role in the universe or irreversibly assist/impair them in gameplay.