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i wasn't saying that fuel as a whole was bad because of the posablility of beinmg stranded, rather i was refering to the perposal that fuel requiernments be dependent on mass (which can esily change during flight). And even so i think it isn't nesisarily a bad idea, just that there are conciderations regarding what it would do to the learning curve, and how it would affect new players (who are most likely to be pushing their fuel limits to save money)
an added twist to the fuel idea, would be if fuel were simply a cargo widget that also had a small amount of mass (say 10cu = 1kg). That way a fighter would be more agile when it was low on or out of fuel.
an added twist to the fuel idea, would be if fuel were simply a cargo widget that also had a small amount of mass (say 10cu = 1kg). That way a fighter would be more agile when it was low on or out of fuel.
Yeah :) I didn't think you were attacking the fuel concept, I was just afraid people would latch onto the word "stranded" and dismiss the idea of fuel without further thought.
The idea of fuel as cargo is interesting and has potential to be worked into the economy and even crafting system. Maybe fuel could be mined and processed on a station to be resold.
Here's another idea I was playing with... When ships jump there could be a bubble around the ship that gets included in that jump. So a small ship could pull up close to a large ship before a jump. When the large ship jumps the small ship gets pulled along without using any of the small ship's fuel, but with an increased drag on the large ship's fuel supply. This could also make pursuits interesting. If the pursuing ship can get close enough to be pulled along in the jump bubble of its prey it would have an advantage (would probably be difficult to get this close, though).
In fact, here is a sample of the fuel-based universe as I imagine it:
On the smallest end of the ships there would be a short range fighter like the Vulture, only faster, more maneuverable, weaker armor, and limited to a light battery. It might be limited to enough fuel for a round trip of two sectors worth of jumping (4 sectors total). On its own this would effectively limit the ship to immediately surrounding friendly stations unless part of a convoy. I really like the idea of a small ship that can completely fly circles around anything else, but is very, very weakly armored. Not something that is just slightly faster and can turn just slightly better than the other ship. So I keep making this plug in my suggestions, sorry about that :)
Medium fighters would be able to jump from one corner of a system to another without refueling.
Heavy fighters could make a one-way trip from one end of Dau to the other end of Nyrius without refueling.
Capital ships might be able to travel up to four systems away.
A large trading ship like the Atlas might have enough fuel to get from a station in the Dau system to a station in Verasi without refeuling.
Then there could be a new type of tanker ship, let's call it the "Manatee." This slow, unarmed, cargoless, but well shielded ship would be able to make it around the galaxy on its own. As the center of the convoy it could pull along a small fleet of small to medium sized ships within its jump bubble, or provide refueling for individual ships. It probably wouldn't be a whole lot of fun to pilot, so maybe it could be remote controlled from another ship. Convoys in remote territory would want to protect this ship, as its destruction could make their trip home long and vulnerable. Another element to make combat a little more interesting.
The physics of fuel:
Let's say the jump engines are powered by a fusion reactor that requires large quantities of hydrogen as fuel. This hydrogen could be picked up by a fuel scoop. Fuel could be picked up at a rate relative to the speed of the ship. A ship moving at full speed might be able to get enough fuel for a one sector jump every minute. That way, a small mining ship with a one-way range of about eight sectors could jump to an asteroid field eight sectors away and by the time they were done with their mining run they would probably have enough fuel to make it all the way back.
The economics of fuel:
Fuel would probably have to be free at friendly stations. This way new players without much money would never be left unable to buy fuel. Fuel at non-friendly/neutral stations might need to be bought, but it probably shouldn't cost much. I think the main interest fuel brings to the game is in the depth it provides to travel planning, logistics of battles, and ship diversification, not as another money drain.
The idea of fuel as cargo is interesting and has potential to be worked into the economy and even crafting system. Maybe fuel could be mined and processed on a station to be resold.
Here's another idea I was playing with... When ships jump there could be a bubble around the ship that gets included in that jump. So a small ship could pull up close to a large ship before a jump. When the large ship jumps the small ship gets pulled along without using any of the small ship's fuel, but with an increased drag on the large ship's fuel supply. This could also make pursuits interesting. If the pursuing ship can get close enough to be pulled along in the jump bubble of its prey it would have an advantage (would probably be difficult to get this close, though).
In fact, here is a sample of the fuel-based universe as I imagine it:
On the smallest end of the ships there would be a short range fighter like the Vulture, only faster, more maneuverable, weaker armor, and limited to a light battery. It might be limited to enough fuel for a round trip of two sectors worth of jumping (4 sectors total). On its own this would effectively limit the ship to immediately surrounding friendly stations unless part of a convoy. I really like the idea of a small ship that can completely fly circles around anything else, but is very, very weakly armored. Not something that is just slightly faster and can turn just slightly better than the other ship. So I keep making this plug in my suggestions, sorry about that :)
Medium fighters would be able to jump from one corner of a system to another without refueling.
Heavy fighters could make a one-way trip from one end of Dau to the other end of Nyrius without refueling.
Capital ships might be able to travel up to four systems away.
A large trading ship like the Atlas might have enough fuel to get from a station in the Dau system to a station in Verasi without refeuling.
Then there could be a new type of tanker ship, let's call it the "Manatee." This slow, unarmed, cargoless, but well shielded ship would be able to make it around the galaxy on its own. As the center of the convoy it could pull along a small fleet of small to medium sized ships within its jump bubble, or provide refueling for individual ships. It probably wouldn't be a whole lot of fun to pilot, so maybe it could be remote controlled from another ship. Convoys in remote territory would want to protect this ship, as its destruction could make their trip home long and vulnerable. Another element to make combat a little more interesting.
The physics of fuel:
Let's say the jump engines are powered by a fusion reactor that requires large quantities of hydrogen as fuel. This hydrogen could be picked up by a fuel scoop. Fuel could be picked up at a rate relative to the speed of the ship. A ship moving at full speed might be able to get enough fuel for a one sector jump every minute. That way, a small mining ship with a one-way range of about eight sectors could jump to an asteroid field eight sectors away and by the time they were done with their mining run they would probably have enough fuel to make it all the way back.
The economics of fuel:
Fuel would probably have to be free at friendly stations. This way new players without much money would never be left unable to buy fuel. Fuel at non-friendly/neutral stations might need to be bought, but it probably shouldn't cost much. I think the main interest fuel brings to the game is in the depth it provides to travel planning, logistics of battles, and ship diversification, not as another money drain.
how about instead of making fuel free at friendly stations, have the gov bus refuel for free anywhere. that way refuling takes money and planing if you fly anything other than an EC-88, but the bus acts as a safty net for anyone who misteps and need to rebuild.
also i don't like the idea of a fule scoop. In my experience they end up being either far too inefective or far too effective (for example in EVN i never bought fuel once after i found that 4 solar collectors charged a jump's worth in the time it took to coast through a star system back to jump distance). and if you realy do get stranded there is always /explode.
also i don't like the idea of a fule scoop. In my experience they end up being either far too inefective or far too effective (for example in EVN i never bought fuel once after i found that 4 solar collectors charged a jump's worth in the time it took to coast through a star system back to jump distance). and if you realy do get stranded there is always /explode.
I like the fule idea. Sure it needs to be tweaked into the game, and I'd much more like to see it being WH only, but that's all up to the devs.
I LOVE the idea that it could be based on the mass of the ship.
Phasing wormholes is a good idea, but it should not be ALL WHs.
It's a nice explaination for why Gray Space is Gray...
Overall concept:
I LOVE the idea that it could be based on the mass of the ship.
Phasing wormholes is a good idea, but it should not be ALL WHs.
It's a nice explaination for why Gray Space is Gray...
Overall concept:
yay, demonen's colorful stamp of approval ;p
Re, Ion: I don't think realism from a physics standpoint really plays into it that much. Even though we are several millienia ahead of present date, I don't see why opening a wormhole or activating a faster than light jump should necessarily come from a renewable resource. Einstein's energy-mass conversion E=mc(sq) and the Lorentz equasion (relativistic frame of reference) suggest the energy released in such an event must be huge. At any rate, its so far outside current day experience who knows what mechanisms it functions on.
From a gameplay standpoint, I think micro-managing can actually add a lot of fun. Right now jumps are free and unlimited, making the entire universe easily accessible, like it's all one big backyard. As the player base grows (I'm thinking in terms of a universe of 500-1,000 online simultaneously) I'd like to see the focus shift from the universe being the backyard to each sector being the backyard. Travel across the universe at faster than light speeds should be no trivial matter. Fuel could tie in to the dynamic economy, the faction system, and the dynamic mass system.
It would also further diversify the types of roles different ships could play, as tomfoolry points out. Short range strike fighters would ride along with their cap ship carrier (to conserve fuel) across long distances until they reached their target destination... fuel barges could fly alongside cap ship fleets on extended missions... light scouts equipped with fuel scoops could explore ahead of the main fleet...
As an aside, I think giving up a weapon port for a fuel scoop is a fair trade... and I think fuel scoops would be a necessity for those that want to explore, unless there were some variants of light ships that had large fuel tanks, like a centurion with a 800 unit fuel tank but no weapon port.
Another possible add-on would be an "external fuel tank" that was equipped on a weapon port and carried a certain number of units of fuel, extending the range of fighters...
Another interesting idea that LordQ brings up is; what if fuel itself had mass? I like the idea of fuel canisters being carried as cargo, but even with internal fuel tanks fuel could have mass. Maybe a light fighter would dump some if its fuel during a dogfight to become more maneuverable, knowing the rest of its fleet was nearby.
Re, Ion: I don't think realism from a physics standpoint really plays into it that much. Even though we are several millienia ahead of present date, I don't see why opening a wormhole or activating a faster than light jump should necessarily come from a renewable resource. Einstein's energy-mass conversion E=mc(sq) and the Lorentz equasion (relativistic frame of reference) suggest the energy released in such an event must be huge. At any rate, its so far outside current day experience who knows what mechanisms it functions on.
From a gameplay standpoint, I think micro-managing can actually add a lot of fun. Right now jumps are free and unlimited, making the entire universe easily accessible, like it's all one big backyard. As the player base grows (I'm thinking in terms of a universe of 500-1,000 online simultaneously) I'd like to see the focus shift from the universe being the backyard to each sector being the backyard. Travel across the universe at faster than light speeds should be no trivial matter. Fuel could tie in to the dynamic economy, the faction system, and the dynamic mass system.
It would also further diversify the types of roles different ships could play, as tomfoolry points out. Short range strike fighters would ride along with their cap ship carrier (to conserve fuel) across long distances until they reached their target destination... fuel barges could fly alongside cap ship fleets on extended missions... light scouts equipped with fuel scoops could explore ahead of the main fleet...
As an aside, I think giving up a weapon port for a fuel scoop is a fair trade... and I think fuel scoops would be a necessity for those that want to explore, unless there were some variants of light ships that had large fuel tanks, like a centurion with a 800 unit fuel tank but no weapon port.
Another possible add-on would be an "external fuel tank" that was equipped on a weapon port and carried a certain number of units of fuel, extending the range of fighters...
Another interesting idea that LordQ brings up is; what if fuel itself had mass? I like the idea of fuel canisters being carried as cargo, but even with internal fuel tanks fuel could have mass. Maybe a light fighter would dump some if its fuel during a dogfight to become more maneuverable, knowing the rest of its fleet was nearby.
another interesting idea regharding fuel and mass just came to minde.
What if fuel canisters counted as a contact trigered mine (ie they explode if theyt get hit by anything). They then could be used as countermesures and hasards. But also this adds risk to the fuel dump to increase manuverability tactic because you can't recover dumped fuel.
of coarse some way to recover that fuel would probablyt be needed (fuel scoop) so as to allow tanker ships to actualy exist.
anyway my sugestion about using cargo space for fuel was to make it easier to implement, and as a use for those 2 c u of space that my valk never uses.
What if fuel canisters counted as a contact trigered mine (ie they explode if theyt get hit by anything). They then could be used as countermesures and hasards. But also this adds risk to the fuel dump to increase manuverability tactic because you can't recover dumped fuel.
of coarse some way to recover that fuel would probablyt be needed (fuel scoop) so as to allow tanker ships to actualy exist.
anyway my sugestion about using cargo space for fuel was to make it easier to implement, and as a use for those 2 c u of space that my valk never uses.
Fuel system: *GIANT STAMP OF APPROVAL* I like the system tomfoolry proposed.
Only problem is that I would go absolutely nuts if I had to stop to refuel more than once or twice each way when I'm doing an 8-jump trade mission. The 'Moth should be able to go four systems at a time. Either that, or the pay should be increased appropriately.
>>> I'd like to see the focus shift from the universe being the backyard to each sector being the backyard.<<<
YES YES YES! It's neat going through places that are unfamiliar. Right now the only place that gives me the slightest sense of that is deep in Itani space.
Wormhole timer: DISAPPROVE. I don't see a need for it and it seems way too contrived.
Wormhole phasing: APPROVE. This should be a rare occurrence. Alternatively, existing wormholes could be left stable, and have a handful of unstable wormholes sprinkled around the system. These would link to random (not necessarily adjacent) systems, and exist for a window of a few minutes at most. Their location should be somewhat predictable (e.g. orbiting around or drifting through a sector, or concentrated in some region). They shouldn't be a reliable means of travel, but might make someone's day more interesting if they just happen through an empty sector where one exists.
Only problem is that I would go absolutely nuts if I had to stop to refuel more than once or twice each way when I'm doing an 8-jump trade mission. The 'Moth should be able to go four systems at a time. Either that, or the pay should be increased appropriately.
>>> I'd like to see the focus shift from the universe being the backyard to each sector being the backyard.<<<
YES YES YES! It's neat going through places that are unfamiliar. Right now the only place that gives me the slightest sense of that is deep in Itani space.
Wormhole timer: DISAPPROVE. I don't see a need for it and it seems way too contrived.
Wormhole phasing: APPROVE. This should be a rare occurrence. Alternatively, existing wormholes could be left stable, and have a handful of unstable wormholes sprinkled around the system. These would link to random (not necessarily adjacent) systems, and exist for a window of a few minutes at most. Their location should be somewhat predictable (e.g. orbiting around or drifting through a sector, or concentrated in some region). They shouldn't be a reliable means of travel, but might make someone's day more interesting if they just happen through an empty sector where one exists.