Forums » Suggestions
I know this has been brought up before, but I wanted to get a discussion going about navigation and fuel in the context of the new update (1.2.5.3). The three most obvious changes to the navigation system are i) in-system jumps now require energy ii) the wormhole effect is being temporarily used for in-system jumps as well as wormhole jumps iii) the player is no longer invincible while jumping.
Having spent some time flying around the universe, checking out the new jump system, here are my observations:
1) Infiniturbo ships now hold an even more distinct advantage over non-infiniturbo ships; not only do they not have to stop and recharge before jumping, they can warp at full turbo speed as opposed to 65 m/s.
2) Rockets hold another advantage over energy weapons, since a rocket user can keep a full battery whereas energy weapons will drain the battery, preventing the energy user from jumping.
Perhaps this was the direction the devs wanted to move in, perhaps not, these are just simple observations. However, the Moth has become even more un-catchable than before, swarm rags can get away even easier, ion-storms still pose no threat to traders, and the tri-flare valk is still king...
In short, while I like the idea of making interstellar navigation serious buisiness and a little more difficult, I think the current update is the wrong approach. I'd like to propose a different possibility and get some discussion going on its pros and cons.
My suggestion comes in three parts... I know some of you aren't going to like it, but keep in mind that the ultimate goal here is to make interstellar navigation more challenging (and consequently more fun), particularly in grey space, and to make escaping from combat more skill oriented (rather than at-the-click-of-a-button).
1) Fuel.
This is an age old discussion, but one that deserves another treatment. I propose that each ship comes with a built-in fuel cell that holds a certain number of units, one for every jump. Four would be the average number, trade ships in general would have larger fuel cells (6-8) and fighters would have smaller fuel cells (3-4)... some exploration variants might even come into play with abnormally large fuel cells (10-14).
The reason I like the idea of fuel for jumps is that hopping around the universe like there's no tomorrow no longer becomes a trivial matter. When the absolute zero of space is less than a few meters from your fragile carbon-based lifeform, navigating between solar systems by punching through the fabric of space-time at FTL speeds is no playground. The possibility of becoming stranded in deep space is then a very real issue, always in the back of every navigator's mind. Each jump must be carefully considered and planned, like a pilot drawing up a flight plan before taking to the sky.
Fuel costs money, so getting around the universe is no longer free. The game-over scenario of being broke and with no fuel would never happen, since you could always get a free ec-88 and mine asteroids until you had enough to buy fuel to start trading.
Under the jettison menu, there could be an option to jett a certain number of fuel units as cargo, which could then be picked up by another player and drawn directly into their fuel tank. This would allow one player to "rescue" another player stranded in deep space. If there is no one around, of course there is always the /explode command. Perhaps the NPC traders could even be programmed to offer assistance if a player hailed them when out of fuel.
This worked very well in EV Nova, and I can see it working well in VO as well. It would add an additional element of strategy to planning your route, and would lend an extra layer of realism to the universe. The 10-hop lose your pursuer maneuver would burn through a lot of fuel, so not everyone would have that luxury. Ion storms would use up an extra unit of fuel, so the wise trader would always save an extra unit or two in case they ran into one. Corner hopping would use two additional units of fuel, so one would have to consider the time vs. reward of no ion storms but more pit stops to refuel. Wormhole hopping would also burn through a lot of fuel.
The bottom line is that under their current implementation jumps are a free, unlimited resource, and in my mind they shouldn't be.
2) Brief warp timer.
Jumps now require energy, meaning infiniturbo ships like the Moth and the Rag hold an even bigger advantage over non-infiniturbo ships. They can speed along without concern for running out of energy, warping at any time under full turbo. As long as jumping is based only on energy, infiniturbo ships will always have this advantage.
I propose a brief no-motion warp timer be added (like the logoff timer) that is based on the distance of the jump. Half a second for every square of distance covered. To jump to an adjacent sector a ship would only have to pause for half a second, but to jump 8 sectors from wh to wh the calculations would take four seconds. Then we have this tradeoff: short jumps make for a faster getaway, but they waste fuel. Also, all ships would have to jump under non-turbo speeds, not just the infiniturbo ships.
3) In-phase/Out of phase wormholes.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11288
Wormholes would go through different periods where they would disappear for a few minutes and become inaccesible before popping up again. The cycles would not be longer than a few minutes, varying a little for each wormhole. Not only would this be an extra bit of the backstory implemented in the game, it would be an added challenge (and remember challenge = fun) that would separate the mediocre trader from the expert trader. The expert career trader would know each wormhole's phase and time his jumps accordingly, a casual, inexperienced trader would find himself high and dry waiting for a wormhole to open at times, leaving him vulnerable to pirate attack, particularly in grey space.
Also, certain areas of space could be made more accessible than others. Newbie zone wormholes like Azek-Dau could be on the order of 6 minutes on, 1 minute off, whereas the wormholes to Odia would be more like 3 minutes on, 2 minutes off. Cargo convoys would have to wait for a wormhole to open if they hit it at the wrong time, bringing back some of the old-school stand and defend gameplay of CTF. The wormhole phases could also be tweaked to balance the CtC routes for Itani and Serco.
Conclusion:
Combined, these suggestions would add an extra dimension of strategy, realism, and economy to interstellar navigation without drastically favoring ships like the moth and the rag. Running from combat would be more difficult, but not impossible, and it would take a lot more strategy (do you plot a jump straight for the station and leave yourself vulnerable for those few extra seconds, or do you make a series of quicker hops along the way, wasting fuel, and risk being stranded with a pursuer on your trail?)
Navigation is such a big part of the game, I think it really needs its own economy driven sub-system (fuel, jump timer, varying whs) rather than being an unlimited resource.
Having spent some time flying around the universe, checking out the new jump system, here are my observations:
1) Infiniturbo ships now hold an even more distinct advantage over non-infiniturbo ships; not only do they not have to stop and recharge before jumping, they can warp at full turbo speed as opposed to 65 m/s.
2) Rockets hold another advantage over energy weapons, since a rocket user can keep a full battery whereas energy weapons will drain the battery, preventing the energy user from jumping.
Perhaps this was the direction the devs wanted to move in, perhaps not, these are just simple observations. However, the Moth has become even more un-catchable than before, swarm rags can get away even easier, ion-storms still pose no threat to traders, and the tri-flare valk is still king...
In short, while I like the idea of making interstellar navigation serious buisiness and a little more difficult, I think the current update is the wrong approach. I'd like to propose a different possibility and get some discussion going on its pros and cons.
My suggestion comes in three parts... I know some of you aren't going to like it, but keep in mind that the ultimate goal here is to make interstellar navigation more challenging (and consequently more fun), particularly in grey space, and to make escaping from combat more skill oriented (rather than at-the-click-of-a-button).
1) Fuel.
This is an age old discussion, but one that deserves another treatment. I propose that each ship comes with a built-in fuel cell that holds a certain number of units, one for every jump. Four would be the average number, trade ships in general would have larger fuel cells (6-8) and fighters would have smaller fuel cells (3-4)... some exploration variants might even come into play with abnormally large fuel cells (10-14).
The reason I like the idea of fuel for jumps is that hopping around the universe like there's no tomorrow no longer becomes a trivial matter. When the absolute zero of space is less than a few meters from your fragile carbon-based lifeform, navigating between solar systems by punching through the fabric of space-time at FTL speeds is no playground. The possibility of becoming stranded in deep space is then a very real issue, always in the back of every navigator's mind. Each jump must be carefully considered and planned, like a pilot drawing up a flight plan before taking to the sky.
Fuel costs money, so getting around the universe is no longer free. The game-over scenario of being broke and with no fuel would never happen, since you could always get a free ec-88 and mine asteroids until you had enough to buy fuel to start trading.
Under the jettison menu, there could be an option to jett a certain number of fuel units as cargo, which could then be picked up by another player and drawn directly into their fuel tank. This would allow one player to "rescue" another player stranded in deep space. If there is no one around, of course there is always the /explode command. Perhaps the NPC traders could even be programmed to offer assistance if a player hailed them when out of fuel.
This worked very well in EV Nova, and I can see it working well in VO as well. It would add an additional element of strategy to planning your route, and would lend an extra layer of realism to the universe. The 10-hop lose your pursuer maneuver would burn through a lot of fuel, so not everyone would have that luxury. Ion storms would use up an extra unit of fuel, so the wise trader would always save an extra unit or two in case they ran into one. Corner hopping would use two additional units of fuel, so one would have to consider the time vs. reward of no ion storms but more pit stops to refuel. Wormhole hopping would also burn through a lot of fuel.
The bottom line is that under their current implementation jumps are a free, unlimited resource, and in my mind they shouldn't be.
2) Brief warp timer.
Jumps now require energy, meaning infiniturbo ships like the Moth and the Rag hold an even bigger advantage over non-infiniturbo ships. They can speed along without concern for running out of energy, warping at any time under full turbo. As long as jumping is based only on energy, infiniturbo ships will always have this advantage.
I propose a brief no-motion warp timer be added (like the logoff timer) that is based on the distance of the jump. Half a second for every square of distance covered. To jump to an adjacent sector a ship would only have to pause for half a second, but to jump 8 sectors from wh to wh the calculations would take four seconds. Then we have this tradeoff: short jumps make for a faster getaway, but they waste fuel. Also, all ships would have to jump under non-turbo speeds, not just the infiniturbo ships.
3) In-phase/Out of phase wormholes.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11288
Wormholes would go through different periods where they would disappear for a few minutes and become inaccesible before popping up again. The cycles would not be longer than a few minutes, varying a little for each wormhole. Not only would this be an extra bit of the backstory implemented in the game, it would be an added challenge (and remember challenge = fun) that would separate the mediocre trader from the expert trader. The expert career trader would know each wormhole's phase and time his jumps accordingly, a casual, inexperienced trader would find himself high and dry waiting for a wormhole to open at times, leaving him vulnerable to pirate attack, particularly in grey space.
Also, certain areas of space could be made more accessible than others. Newbie zone wormholes like Azek-Dau could be on the order of 6 minutes on, 1 minute off, whereas the wormholes to Odia would be more like 3 minutes on, 2 minutes off. Cargo convoys would have to wait for a wormhole to open if they hit it at the wrong time, bringing back some of the old-school stand and defend gameplay of CTF. The wormhole phases could also be tweaked to balance the CtC routes for Itani and Serco.
Conclusion:
Combined, these suggestions would add an extra dimension of strategy, realism, and economy to interstellar navigation without drastically favoring ships like the moth and the rag. Running from combat would be more difficult, but not impossible, and it would take a lot more strategy (do you plot a jump straight for the station and leave yourself vulnerable for those few extra seconds, or do you make a series of quicker hops along the way, wasting fuel, and risk being stranded with a pursuer on your trail?)
Navigation is such a big part of the game, I think it really needs its own economy driven sub-system (fuel, jump timer, varying whs) rather than being an unlimited resource.
These are all really good ideas. However, the only problem I see with the fuel idea is time. If you would have to constantly stop at stations to get more fuel, the travel would seem like forever if you wanted to go across the universe. It already takes a little while to jump from lets say Deneb over to Odia. If you would have to stop all the time to fill up on fuel, at least I myself would not want to travel far distances anymore. I think there can be a "middle" ground on this issue. Just my 2 cents.
[Edit]
Maybe there could be a way to "mine" fuel from a certain kind of roid around the universe? This would promote mining as well. It would eliminate the need to stop at stations, and I think would be a viable way to use the fuel idea.
[Edit]
Maybe there could be a way to "mine" fuel from a certain kind of roid around the universe? This would promote mining as well. It would eliminate the need to stop at stations, and I think would be a viable way to use the fuel idea.
I like the fuel idea, but not the impact it would have on long-haul trading... of course, bonus timers adequately adjusted, it could make things more interesting..
the amount of fuel used for inter-system jumps should be proportional tot he length of the jump more than the number of jumps. Example: say one ship had a capacity of 200 fuel units. a WH jump might consume 15, and an in-system jump would consume 3+x, where x is the number of sectors traversed (3 for the initial jump, then more depending on the distance traversed) The jumps would take time (a couple seconds to accumulate energy - more for longer jumps than shorter ones, then a set amount of time to complete the jump(to aid in evening loading times)) While accumulating energy for the jump, the turbo engines shut down.
>>"I propose a brief no-motion warp timer be added (like the logoff timer) that is based on the distance of the jump. Half a second for every square of distance covered. To jump to an adjacent sector a ship would only have to pause for half a second, but to jump 8 sectors from wh to wh the calculations would take four seconds. Then we have this tradeoff: short jumps make for a faster getaway, but they waste fuel. Also, all ships would have to jump under non-turbo speeds, not just the infiniturbo ships."<<
I don't like this one, and here's why:
1) it's too easy to bump controls, especially if using a joystick system.
2) trade ships would be unable to run from fighter ships.
3) it would make gameplay very aggivating for everyone but pirates.
4) it's not necessary - implementing aforementioned fuel and jump system would more than likely do the trick.
Thw WH phase idea would be very difficult to work along with times missions... and 2 minues out is too long, especially for non-stand-and-fight vessels (like the moth, or (unless tumble is flying it) the atlas) a time span measured in minutes takes away from the excitement and pace of the game... 1 minute should be the MAX, and the average closer to 15-20 seconds.
the amount of fuel used for inter-system jumps should be proportional tot he length of the jump more than the number of jumps. Example: say one ship had a capacity of 200 fuel units. a WH jump might consume 15, and an in-system jump would consume 3+x, where x is the number of sectors traversed (3 for the initial jump, then more depending on the distance traversed) The jumps would take time (a couple seconds to accumulate energy - more for longer jumps than shorter ones, then a set amount of time to complete the jump(to aid in evening loading times)) While accumulating energy for the jump, the turbo engines shut down.
>>"I propose a brief no-motion warp timer be added (like the logoff timer) that is based on the distance of the jump. Half a second for every square of distance covered. To jump to an adjacent sector a ship would only have to pause for half a second, but to jump 8 sectors from wh to wh the calculations would take four seconds. Then we have this tradeoff: short jumps make for a faster getaway, but they waste fuel. Also, all ships would have to jump under non-turbo speeds, not just the infiniturbo ships."<<
I don't like this one, and here's why:
1) it's too easy to bump controls, especially if using a joystick system.
2) trade ships would be unable to run from fighter ships.
3) it would make gameplay very aggivating for everyone but pirates.
4) it's not necessary - implementing aforementioned fuel and jump system would more than likely do the trick.
Thw WH phase idea would be very difficult to work along with times missions... and 2 minues out is too long, especially for non-stand-and-fight vessels (like the moth, or (unless tumble is flying it) the atlas) a time span measured in minutes takes away from the excitement and pace of the game... 1 minute should be the MAX, and the average closer to 15-20 seconds.
Why on earth would you need fuel? BATTERY!! That means its powered by your battery not fuel... Electric ships...
I don't mind the fuel idea, though I prefer the way it was before all the tweaks were made to begin with. I still don't like the idea of a timer before you can jump, in my mind, all if not some of that "time" is part of the pilot selecting the jump location in the nav map, so the time it takes to charge your battery should be more then enough of a stall. Making the jumps require that you are not turboing though is an interesting idea, and one that would definitely hurt trades and infiboost ship pilots but one I'm willing to TRY out to see if it's ok or not. I really like the wh on a timer idea and would love to give it a try, perhaps all these "ideas" that have been flying around could be implemeted on the test server before they are brought to the public and we could all try them out there to see if they are good or not?
There's a fine line between realism and tedium in games. EVE Online is a nice example of this. It's achingly realistic; everything takes a significant time investment and it is quite a while before you level even a few skills up to a useful point or gain enough money to even get out of your starting ship.
This is not a Good Thing(TM).
The fuel suggestion, while I can see the perspective where it's coming from, would cross that line. It takes long enough to get from one side of the known universe to the other, simply because of ion storms and the need to fly 3000 klicks up the gravity incline to jump. Making it artificially longer by including fuel requirements, while it might be realistic, wouldn't be particularly fun.
This is not a Good Thing(TM).
The fuel suggestion, while I can see the perspective where it's coming from, would cross that line. It takes long enough to get from one side of the known universe to the other, simply because of ion storms and the need to fly 3000 klicks up the gravity incline to jump. Making it artificially longer by including fuel requirements, while it might be realistic, wouldn't be particularly fun.
the fuel idea is interesting, but i think it should be the last thing implemented before the "releas" of the game and here is why:
we have precisely diddely for players right now. the univers is huge and moslty empty. yes traveling around the galaxy should take more effort, but if it were implemented now it would take it's toll on the fun of the game because right now there are too few people. most of the people online at one time have to be in the same place to generate any sort of PVP enviroment, and often the "action spot" moves around the galaxy depending on what is hapening that perticular day.
because of this i'd say fuel should be added in as shortly befor the devs begin mass marketing the game as is fesable.
as for the jump timer:
bad idea, people complaine about being defencless during the jump animation, imagin how upset they will be with an additional timer. I myself would prefer not to have a timer, also because the added time to trade runs will be realy annoying.
As far as womeholer phasing, i don't like the idea myself but i'd be willing to try it.
for one thing i don't think it fits the backstory as well as you claim. in the backstory wormehole zones operated on a phase mesured in thousands of years. I also think that timed wormeholes will steepen the learning curve for new players. think about it this way: if you don't know how wormeholes work, and you go to a wormehole sector for the first time, then what hapens if it doesn't work? obviously you ask on 100 why it isn't working and the vets explain that it will open again i a bit, so you ate around for a minut or 2 before it opens, now if this repeats several times that is a fair bit of your 8 houre trial spent wating for wormeholes to open. that will anoy many new players who oterwise may have become longstanding members of the VO community.
anyway i said i would be willing to try the womehole idea and i would, but concider what i have said.
we have precisely diddely for players right now. the univers is huge and moslty empty. yes traveling around the galaxy should take more effort, but if it were implemented now it would take it's toll on the fun of the game because right now there are too few people. most of the people online at one time have to be in the same place to generate any sort of PVP enviroment, and often the "action spot" moves around the galaxy depending on what is hapening that perticular day.
because of this i'd say fuel should be added in as shortly befor the devs begin mass marketing the game as is fesable.
as for the jump timer:
bad idea, people complaine about being defencless during the jump animation, imagin how upset they will be with an additional timer. I myself would prefer not to have a timer, also because the added time to trade runs will be realy annoying.
As far as womeholer phasing, i don't like the idea myself but i'd be willing to try it.
for one thing i don't think it fits the backstory as well as you claim. in the backstory wormehole zones operated on a phase mesured in thousands of years. I also think that timed wormeholes will steepen the learning curve for new players. think about it this way: if you don't know how wormeholes work, and you go to a wormehole sector for the first time, then what hapens if it doesn't work? obviously you ask on 100 why it isn't working and the vets explain that it will open again i a bit, so you ate around for a minut or 2 before it opens, now if this repeats several times that is a fair bit of your 8 houre trial spent wating for wormeholes to open. that will anoy many new players who oterwise may have become longstanding members of the VO community.
anyway i said i would be willing to try the womehole idea and i would, but concider what i have said.
personally, i may like the fuel idea, but the shifting WH's I don't like. It doesnt add to the backstory, and, well, i dont see myself waiting there, doing nothing untill a WH opens up again.
In the other thread I go into a little more detail about the wh phase idea. Basically, the way I envisioned it happening is that when the wormhole goes out of phase, it drops off the radar and the HUD, but the wh icon remains on the system map. When the wormhole popped up again it could reappear in a slightly different location, always changing the dynamics of a wh sector. Right now with so few people online I conceded this may be a little annoying, but when you have a group of people gathered around a wh it could be like "circling the wagons" in the old west for a few minutes... everyone hanging out, and banding together if attacked by a group of pirates. I could be wrong, but I think it could be a lot of fun when we have more players; it really functions to make some whs more of a chokepoint than others, and every shooter game needs its chokepoints.
There could also be a little bit about phasing whs in the intro mission so as not to confuse newbies.
the fuel idea is interesting, but i think it should be the last thing implemented before the "releas" of the game and here is why:
we have precisely diddely for players right now. the univers is huge and moslty empty. yes traveling around the galaxy should take more effort, but if it were implemented now it would take it's toll on the fun of the game because right now there are too few people.
I agree, LordQ... I was thinking more along the lines of when we have 1,000 people online at the same time. Right now zipping from one end of the universe to the other is sort of a necessity since there are so few people online that in order to have any kind of player interaction you sometimes have to get from point A to point B very quickly.
Ideally, in the future I'd like to see the universe become a much bigger place, not in terms of physical space but in terms of the number of players online and in terms of travel. Going from Dau to Odia or Sedina to Geira would be a much bigger deal than it is now. So, yes, I agree 100%
These are all really good ideas. However, the only problem I see with the fuel idea is time. If you would have to constantly stop at stations to get more fuel, the travel would seem like forever if you wanted to go across the universe.
Well, since you're traveling halfway across the universe it really should take forever in my mind, provided we had enough players to make it interesting. Fuel of course is subject to tweaking, the adjustable variables being the cost of fuel per unit and the number of jumps each ship can hold. If it seems like travel is taking too long because of excessive refueling stops than the fuel cells could be adjusted to hold more units across the board. This could be tweaked as the game grows larger and more players sign up.
The aspect of fuel that I really like is that jumps are no longer free or unlimited, so you have to have some kind of "flight plan" in the back of your head. It's an additional element of strategy.
There could also be a little bit about phasing whs in the intro mission so as not to confuse newbies.
the fuel idea is interesting, but i think it should be the last thing implemented before the "releas" of the game and here is why:
we have precisely diddely for players right now. the univers is huge and moslty empty. yes traveling around the galaxy should take more effort, but if it were implemented now it would take it's toll on the fun of the game because right now there are too few people.
I agree, LordQ... I was thinking more along the lines of when we have 1,000 people online at the same time. Right now zipping from one end of the universe to the other is sort of a necessity since there are so few people online that in order to have any kind of player interaction you sometimes have to get from point A to point B very quickly.
Ideally, in the future I'd like to see the universe become a much bigger place, not in terms of physical space but in terms of the number of players online and in terms of travel. Going from Dau to Odia or Sedina to Geira would be a much bigger deal than it is now. So, yes, I agree 100%
These are all really good ideas. However, the only problem I see with the fuel idea is time. If you would have to constantly stop at stations to get more fuel, the travel would seem like forever if you wanted to go across the universe.
Well, since you're traveling halfway across the universe it really should take forever in my mind, provided we had enough players to make it interesting. Fuel of course is subject to tweaking, the adjustable variables being the cost of fuel per unit and the number of jumps each ship can hold. If it seems like travel is taking too long because of excessive refueling stops than the fuel cells could be adjusted to hold more units across the board. This could be tweaked as the game grows larger and more players sign up.
The aspect of fuel that I really like is that jumps are no longer free or unlimited, so you have to have some kind of "flight plan" in the back of your head. It's an additional element of strategy.
Since you already mentioned the EV series in conjunction with the fuel idea, I am somewhat astonished that you did not in the same paragraph mention fuel scoops, because getting "stranded" in EV meant that you might have had to start the pilot anew, which was/is a very annoying thing. Or were you assuming them to be a given?
About the no-motion timer:
Maybe not complete immobilisation, but limitation to normal movement (no turbo), kind of like when you had the flag. That would already put a severe damper on dodging capabilities. Of course, time spans would have to be adjusted.
About the in-and-out-of-phase wormholes:
It is a very interesting concept. It would make "traffic forecast" services viable, for those who are too lazy to keep an eye on the routes. It might be a bit harsh, though, when a trader has calculated a specific route, stumbles across a pirate and has to flee, effectively rendering his precalculated route obsolete.
Perhaps some sort of traffic light gadget would have to be added to the NavComp to show routes that work and routes that don't, and maybe choke points would have to have shorter out-of-phase-durations, so that they wouldn't frustrate too much.
About the no-motion timer:
Maybe not complete immobilisation, but limitation to normal movement (no turbo), kind of like when you had the flag. That would already put a severe damper on dodging capabilities. Of course, time spans would have to be adjusted.
About the in-and-out-of-phase wormholes:
It is a very interesting concept. It would make "traffic forecast" services viable, for those who are too lazy to keep an eye on the routes. It might be a bit harsh, though, when a trader has calculated a specific route, stumbles across a pirate and has to flee, effectively rendering his precalculated route obsolete.
Perhaps some sort of traffic light gadget would have to be added to the NavComp to show routes that work and routes that don't, and maybe choke points would have to have shorter out-of-phase-durations, so that they wouldn't frustrate too much.
Lord Q:
>>"I also think that timed wormeholes will steepen the learning curve for new players. think about it this way: if you don't know how wormeholes work, and you go to a wormehole sector for the first time, then what hapens if it doesn't work? obviously you ask on 100 why it isn't working and the vets explain that it will open again i a bit, so you ate around for a minut or 2 before it opens, now if this repeats several times that is a fair bit of your 8 houre trial spent wating for wormeholes to open. that will anoy many new players who oterwise may have become longstanding members of the VO community."<<
hehe... or, more than likely, they ask on 100 why it isn't working, and the nearest pirates move to assist =P
Phaserlight:
>>"but when you have a group of people gathered around a wh it could be like "circling the wagons" in the old west for a few minutes... everyone hanging out, and banding together if attacked by a group of pirates. I could be wrong, but I think it could be a lot of fun when we have more players; it really functions to make some whs more of a chokepoint than others, and every shooter game needs its chokepoints."<<
this could be a problem, and I predict that it would be a ver big one at that... take the number of pirates and predators already in the game for instance, and balance that with the number of traders moving about from system to system at any one time. Don't the pirates generally outnumber the traders? If you raise the participation by 500%, the pirates -still- outgun the traders... so it would be less of a defensive group, and more of a slaughter corral... just my 2c.
toshiro:
>>"Since you already mentioned the EV series in conjunction with the fuel idea, I am somewhat astonished that you did not in the same paragraph mention fuel scoops, because getting "stranded" in EV meant that you might have had to start the pilot anew, which was/is a very annoying thing. Or were you assuming them to be a given?"<<
YES!! The solution to the forecasted trading time problem... allow fuel scoops to be equipped to L-ports, that would slowly recharge you using the ubiquitous space debris...This would extend the range and speed of anyone truly dedicated to trading, without having a poor effect on those who prefer combat (save the pie rats)
>>"I also think that timed wormeholes will steepen the learning curve for new players. think about it this way: if you don't know how wormeholes work, and you go to a wormehole sector for the first time, then what hapens if it doesn't work? obviously you ask on 100 why it isn't working and the vets explain that it will open again i a bit, so you ate around for a minut or 2 before it opens, now if this repeats several times that is a fair bit of your 8 houre trial spent wating for wormeholes to open. that will anoy many new players who oterwise may have become longstanding members of the VO community."<<
hehe... or, more than likely, they ask on 100 why it isn't working, and the nearest pirates move to assist =P
Phaserlight:
>>"but when you have a group of people gathered around a wh it could be like "circling the wagons" in the old west for a few minutes... everyone hanging out, and banding together if attacked by a group of pirates. I could be wrong, but I think it could be a lot of fun when we have more players; it really functions to make some whs more of a chokepoint than others, and every shooter game needs its chokepoints."<<
this could be a problem, and I predict that it would be a ver big one at that... take the number of pirates and predators already in the game for instance, and balance that with the number of traders moving about from system to system at any one time. Don't the pirates generally outnumber the traders? If you raise the participation by 500%, the pirates -still- outgun the traders... so it would be less of a defensive group, and more of a slaughter corral... just my 2c.
toshiro:
>>"Since you already mentioned the EV series in conjunction with the fuel idea, I am somewhat astonished that you did not in the same paragraph mention fuel scoops, because getting "stranded" in EV meant that you might have had to start the pilot anew, which was/is a very annoying thing. Or were you assuming them to be a given?"<<
YES!! The solution to the forecasted trading time problem... allow fuel scoops to be equipped to L-ports, that would slowly recharge you using the ubiquitous space debris...This would extend the range and speed of anyone truly dedicated to trading, without having a poor effect on those who prefer combat (save the pie rats)
[stamp of approval]
Why on earth would you need fuel? BATTERY!! That means its powered by your battery not fuel... Electric ships...
¬_¬
How do you think the battery recharges in your car? Magic?
¬_¬
How do you think the battery recharges in your car? Magic?
Another cool thing that could possibly be done is make the amount of fuel used in each jump based on mass... say 1 unit for every 100kg. That way if you carry a lot of heavy cargo you use more fuel each time you jump.
This might lead to the interesting situation of being able to make it to your destination if you jet your cargo, but being too heavy otherwise. Do you leave your cargo and hop to the station to refuel, hoping no one picks it up while your gone? Or do you wait for a good samaritan trader to stop and jett some of their own fuel for you?
A valk might have a 200 unit fuel tank, allowing it 5-6 jumps, whereas a centaur might have a 2,000 unit fuel tank, providing 8-10 jumps with full cargo. However, if the price of fuel per unit was the same (~3 credits per unit), it would be a lot more expensive to fly a centaur around even with its longer range since it burns more fuel per jump.
Toshiro's proposed fuel scoop might be an s-port "weapon" that picked up 1 unit per second, making exploration in a light ship a lot more feasable than in a heavy. A large port version of the fuel scoop could pick up 3 units per second, but since a light fighter like the centurion would only need ~30 units for a jump, it would be stranded for a far shorter period than a ship with a mass of 10,000kg.
This might lead to the interesting situation of being able to make it to your destination if you jet your cargo, but being too heavy otherwise. Do you leave your cargo and hop to the station to refuel, hoping no one picks it up while your gone? Or do you wait for a good samaritan trader to stop and jett some of their own fuel for you?
A valk might have a 200 unit fuel tank, allowing it 5-6 jumps, whereas a centaur might have a 2,000 unit fuel tank, providing 8-10 jumps with full cargo. However, if the price of fuel per unit was the same (~3 credits per unit), it would be a lot more expensive to fly a centaur around even with its longer range since it burns more fuel per jump.
Toshiro's proposed fuel scoop might be an s-port "weapon" that picked up 1 unit per second, making exploration in a light ship a lot more feasable than in a heavy. A large port version of the fuel scoop could pick up 3 units per second, but since a light fighter like the centurion would only need ~30 units for a jump, it would be stranded for a far shorter period than a ship with a mass of 10,000kg.
mmm
Sounds good, i like this
/me disapproves
IMO, your ideas aren't so much of a challenge as they are an annoyance. I don't want to see another element of micro-management added to the game, it would have turned me off as a n00b
IMO, your ideas aren't so much of a challenge as they are an annoyance. I don't want to see another element of micro-management added to the game, it would have turned me off as a n00b
I think we can safely assume that in more than 2000 years, man will have come up with batteries that recharge themselves continously and quickly, and that last for a few years before depleted. Yes, almost like magic. How many of you have flown the same ship for a few years before getting shot down/switching ship/upgrading? ;-) (There are already today quickly recharging energy cells/systems, even though they are not quite strong enough to power a spaceship ;-)
That's my biggest gripe with the fuel idea: for me, it breaks the realism. Because any battery that could be used for powering weapons, could also be used for jumping (even though jumping probably takes hundreds times the energy that weapons do). So, the only way I could ever see fuel being introduced would be if we completely removed the energy system (and possibly replaced it with an overheat timer). And I wouldn't want that to happen. (Possibly if the devs added some kind of wear and tear to the battery, so that it became depleted after x jumps, and had to be replaced. Could be explained (in-game) as one of the drawbacks of not having a advanced hyperjump technology.)
That was one of the first things I really liked when I discovered Vendetta, the lack of fuel. In comparison to other space games, this felt both convenient, simple, fun, and gave me an additional sense of freedom. Fuel should never have been present in space games in the first place. I really disapprove of this idea, even though I respect the qualitiy of the idea ;-)
That's my biggest gripe with the fuel idea: for me, it breaks the realism. Because any battery that could be used for powering weapons, could also be used for jumping (even though jumping probably takes hundreds times the energy that weapons do). So, the only way I could ever see fuel being introduced would be if we completely removed the energy system (and possibly replaced it with an overheat timer). And I wouldn't want that to happen. (Possibly if the devs added some kind of wear and tear to the battery, so that it became depleted after x jumps, and had to be replaced. Could be explained (in-game) as one of the drawbacks of not having a advanced hyperjump technology.)
That was one of the first things I really liked when I discovered Vendetta, the lack of fuel. In comparison to other space games, this felt both convenient, simple, fun, and gave me an additional sense of freedom. Fuel should never have been present in space games in the first place. I really disapprove of this idea, even though I respect the qualitiy of the idea ;-)
Ion,
you assume that the jump engin is powered by electricity and that it requires energy in quantities similar to that of our weapons. There are 2 posabilities that ignores. One is that the jump engin uses some chemicle process to generate the means of propulsion. or the posability that the jump engin requires so much power in one sudden burst that it would equate to many times the charge of even the largest battery. In the later case the ships could be concidered as having a fuel based generator that is capable of generating amounts of power signifigantly larger thyan that of any battery, but doing so continiously would depleet the limited fuel supply and would potentaly overload the electrinics that link the battery to the generator. Thus the generator can recharcge the battery indefinately with negligable fuel usage, but even a single jump will depleet a noticable quantity of fuel.
Phaserlight,
i think your variable fuel efficincy as a function of mass is interesting, but may lead to too calculations that are too complicated for new players who aren't used to the syatem, and coincedently are the least able to deal with fuel costs. A new player may not imedately realise that that cu of scrap metal he took from the bot he justy killed makes his ship heavier thereby reducing his range and posably causing him to be stranded somwhere en-rout with only /explode or a chanell 100 distress call to rely on. So while it would be an interesting idea, i'm not sure if it is the best way to handle fuel from a learning curve perspective.
you assume that the jump engin is powered by electricity and that it requires energy in quantities similar to that of our weapons. There are 2 posabilities that ignores. One is that the jump engin uses some chemicle process to generate the means of propulsion. or the posability that the jump engin requires so much power in one sudden burst that it would equate to many times the charge of even the largest battery. In the later case the ships could be concidered as having a fuel based generator that is capable of generating amounts of power signifigantly larger thyan that of any battery, but doing so continiously would depleet the limited fuel supply and would potentaly overload the electrinics that link the battery to the generator. Thus the generator can recharcge the battery indefinately with negligable fuel usage, but even a single jump will depleet a noticable quantity of fuel.
Phaserlight,
i think your variable fuel efficincy as a function of mass is interesting, but may lead to too calculations that are too complicated for new players who aren't used to the syatem, and coincedently are the least able to deal with fuel costs. A new player may not imedately realise that that cu of scrap metal he took from the bot he justy killed makes his ship heavier thereby reducing his range and posably causing him to be stranded somwhere en-rout with only /explode or a chanell 100 distress call to rely on. So while it would be an interesting idea, i'm not sure if it is the best way to handle fuel from a learning curve perspective.
"...posably causing him to be stranded somwhere en-rout with only /explode or a chanell 100 distress call to rely on."
I think this is a misconception that scares many of people away from the fuel idea. As others have said, this can be easily avoided by including "fuel scoops" in ships that replenish the fuel supply by flying around. That way nobody would ever be permanantly stranded, but it would be an inconvenience.
There are lots of pros and cons to the fuel idea, but I'd hate to see that one be the killer :)
In fact the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of fuel. It would go a great way towards distinguishing between ships. It's always seemed to me that ship individuality has been sacrificed in the name of balance. With fuel as a factor a small light/fast fighter might be allowed to be a really good fighting ship because it's effectiveness is limited by an extremely short range. Thus it would only be effective within a few sectors of a station, but still might fly protection as part of a convoy either by hitching a ride on a capital ship or with a refueling tanker. The tanker idea would still inconvenience the convoy by limiting them to a few sectors per jump to stop and refuel the fighters, but that would be the price of good protection.
I really think it is these kinds of dynamics that will add depth and interest to the game.
I think this is a misconception that scares many of people away from the fuel idea. As others have said, this can be easily avoided by including "fuel scoops" in ships that replenish the fuel supply by flying around. That way nobody would ever be permanantly stranded, but it would be an inconvenience.
There are lots of pros and cons to the fuel idea, but I'd hate to see that one be the killer :)
In fact the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of fuel. It would go a great way towards distinguishing between ships. It's always seemed to me that ship individuality has been sacrificed in the name of balance. With fuel as a factor a small light/fast fighter might be allowed to be a really good fighting ship because it's effectiveness is limited by an extremely short range. Thus it would only be effective within a few sectors of a station, but still might fly protection as part of a convoy either by hitching a ride on a capital ship or with a refueling tanker. The tanker idea would still inconvenience the convoy by limiting them to a few sectors per jump to stop and refuel the fighters, but that would be the price of good protection.
I really think it is these kinds of dynamics that will add depth and interest to the game.