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Here is another heated debate that stemmed from the 1.2.3.4 balance discussions.
With the armor reduction on the Marauder, a ship already considered underpowered by some, players are starting to take a look at the balance among high level trade ships: the Maud, the 'Taur, and the Moth.
The Centaur is the muscle trader with the most firepower, a high thrust and mass, and it also is the mining ship of choice with a large cargo hold and the ability to equip two large beams and a scanner.
The Marauder is a light ship which is supposedly the UIT special, but there is not that much that is special about it. The ship is so light that laden with cargo it's performance takes a plunge, however giving it too much thrust would make it compete with the Valk? which is obviously not a good thing since it is a trade ship. Given it's large size, however, I don't think a thrust increase would hurt if a little more armor was taken off perhaps. That is beside the point, however.
Both as a trader and a getaway vehicle, the Moth flat out beats both the Centaur and the Marauder. It can carry over twice the cargo of its nearest competitor, the centaur, it has over twice the armor of any ship in the game (45k), and it has a large booster thrust and can infiniboost at 190 m/s.
This ship has made it possible to go from 0 to admired in any faction in 4 runs or less, and it can boost around grey space without having to worry about pirates. At 45k hull and an infiniboost of 190 m/s, it's an unstoppable juggernaut.
Why can the most overt cargo hauler in the game boost around the lawless grey systems like it's kindergarten? I thought these systems were supposed to be dangerous but highly profitable to those that were willing to take the risk. Where is the risk? In my humble opinion, a ship like the Behemoth should be designed to haul freight along the safer trading lanes of nation space, whereas a ship like the Marauder should be designed to "boldly go."
All I am suggesting is that we reduce the Behemoth's turbo top speed to the point where one or two pirates could prove a serious threat. Right now this is not the case unless the Behemoth pilot does something dumb like let up on the turbo.
Now this is the part where Renegade RIP comes in and says "but Phaserlight, if you nerf the Behemoth, trading won't be fun any more!"
My answer to this is: what makes a game fun; challenge and diversity or a single ultimate ship? Right now there is no reason to run trade in anything other than a Moth if you have the license levels. It should be a choice between the well armed Centaur, the agile Marauder, and the giant cargo space of the Behemoth. All these things need to come with tradeoffs, however. The Marauder handles like a pregnant cow when it's fully loaded, the Centaur doesn't have as much cargo space, and the Behemoth.... well for all that cargo space and armor I think the Behemoth should be slow, something a pirate could easily overtake.
With the armor reduction on the Marauder, a ship already considered underpowered by some, players are starting to take a look at the balance among high level trade ships: the Maud, the 'Taur, and the Moth.
The Centaur is the muscle trader with the most firepower, a high thrust and mass, and it also is the mining ship of choice with a large cargo hold and the ability to equip two large beams and a scanner.
The Marauder is a light ship which is supposedly the UIT special, but there is not that much that is special about it. The ship is so light that laden with cargo it's performance takes a plunge, however giving it too much thrust would make it compete with the Valk? which is obviously not a good thing since it is a trade ship. Given it's large size, however, I don't think a thrust increase would hurt if a little more armor was taken off perhaps. That is beside the point, however.
Both as a trader and a getaway vehicle, the Moth flat out beats both the Centaur and the Marauder. It can carry over twice the cargo of its nearest competitor, the centaur, it has over twice the armor of any ship in the game (45k), and it has a large booster thrust and can infiniboost at 190 m/s.
This ship has made it possible to go from 0 to admired in any faction in 4 runs or less, and it can boost around grey space without having to worry about pirates. At 45k hull and an infiniboost of 190 m/s, it's an unstoppable juggernaut.
Why can the most overt cargo hauler in the game boost around the lawless grey systems like it's kindergarten? I thought these systems were supposed to be dangerous but highly profitable to those that were willing to take the risk. Where is the risk? In my humble opinion, a ship like the Behemoth should be designed to haul freight along the safer trading lanes of nation space, whereas a ship like the Marauder should be designed to "boldly go."
All I am suggesting is that we reduce the Behemoth's turbo top speed to the point where one or two pirates could prove a serious threat. Right now this is not the case unless the Behemoth pilot does something dumb like let up on the turbo.
Now this is the part where Renegade RIP comes in and says "but Phaserlight, if you nerf the Behemoth, trading won't be fun any more!"
My answer to this is: what makes a game fun; challenge and diversity or a single ultimate ship? Right now there is no reason to run trade in anything other than a Moth if you have the license levels. It should be a choice between the well armed Centaur, the agile Marauder, and the giant cargo space of the Behemoth. All these things need to come with tradeoffs, however. The Marauder handles like a pregnant cow when it's fully loaded, the Centaur doesn't have as much cargo space, and the Behemoth.... well for all that cargo space and armor I think the Behemoth should be slow, something a pirate could easily overtake.
I second every word of this post, except the "easily" from the last phrase. The Moth should simply be "something a pirate could overtake".
I agree. I'd say, drop it to 180m/s for a week, that'll probably still be fast enough for it to escape fairly easily, so after that try it at 170m/s for a week, and then go down to 160m/s if enough people still think it's too fast.
I would actually agree with Phaserlilght, pirates should be able to catch a Moth easily. I think a Moth's defence against pirates should be its high armor, and hiring escorts.
I would actually agree with Phaserlilght, pirates should be able to catch a Moth easily. I think a Moth's defence against pirates should be its high armor, and hiring escorts.
I have a different suggestion for fixing the moth. the top speed isn't really that fast, its the time it takes to get to that speed that is the problem.
it has a thrust of 500 for regular maneuvering, but a turbo thrust of 1500, making its straight line accel insane, even with a full load. cut its turbo accel down to 1,000 as a start, and see if that helps. If that doesn't help enough cut the top turbo speed to 180. Alternate cutting the turbo-thrust and the top speed by small amounts from there on (maybe an additional loss of 100N or 5 top speed)
it has a thrust of 500 for regular maneuvering, but a turbo thrust of 1500, making its straight line accel insane, even with a full load. cut its turbo accel down to 1,000 as a start, and see if that helps. If that doesn't help enough cut the top turbo speed to 180. Alternate cutting the turbo-thrust and the top speed by small amounts from there on (maybe an additional loss of 100N or 5 top speed)
Sigh I detest to get quoted on that. I don't recall saying that trading would not be fun if the moth would be dropped to 160m/s. I said that nothing would get me out of my centaur to even ocnsider switching to a moth since you do know that armour isn't the only limitting factor. Heck I think that the frigate has made that clear... It might have the armour of a tank, but it is as manouvrable as a brick. And making it into a coffin will just make it unused in trading. Heck anybody recall the time during beta where we had the centaur and the marauder? Who used the centaur at all? Nobody since it was nicked the coffin. Everybody that had the levels flew the marauder...
All I hav ebeen suggesting is to make the moth Not into a deathtrap but to give it a small chance to escape a pirate. I don't think that is to much to ask. You are afterall hauling around a ship worth 200 - 300k. Which any pirate in a ship of lets say 20k can blast in 1 2 3? Even although money doesn't mean that much... it is still a limitting factor.
I hav enot contested that the moth needed an adjustment, I was even supporting it. The only thing I was not advocating to reitterate my point is to make it a death trap. Not to mention that I even proposed to up its licencelevels to a higher point to make it more of a traders elitebulkship although I still htink that the behmoth should be another elite special of the UIT/TPG and not obtainable anywhere else unless they had a severely different statistic. aka serco behemoth : 60-70k armour, cut down with 50 - 100 thrust (prolly 75), and 100 cargo. Itani : 30-35k hps , 5-10 turbospeed higher(maybe add 20 - 50 thrust), 80 cargo. UIT/TPG; 45k armour, 140 cargo, normal speed/turbo. All requiring 13 trade and 8/9 mining. Available in corvus as a weaker variant for 11 trade and 6 mining (with these stats : 25-30k hps, +20 thrust, 80 cargo).
EDIT: but I have been suggesting this difference for all the ships we have at our disposal so if I buy a serco warthog that it is different from an itani one, heck even from a uit one. At the same time I htink I also made sure that the real elite ships should be unattainable by the opposite party. This would create a feel to the sides you are supporting in stead of this if i fly itani its the same thing as if im flying uit or serco...
All I hav ebeen suggesting is to make the moth Not into a deathtrap but to give it a small chance to escape a pirate. I don't think that is to much to ask. You are afterall hauling around a ship worth 200 - 300k. Which any pirate in a ship of lets say 20k can blast in 1 2 3? Even although money doesn't mean that much... it is still a limitting factor.
I hav enot contested that the moth needed an adjustment, I was even supporting it. The only thing I was not advocating to reitterate my point is to make it a death trap. Not to mention that I even proposed to up its licencelevels to a higher point to make it more of a traders elitebulkship although I still htink that the behmoth should be another elite special of the UIT/TPG and not obtainable anywhere else unless they had a severely different statistic. aka serco behemoth : 60-70k armour, cut down with 50 - 100 thrust (prolly 75), and 100 cargo. Itani : 30-35k hps , 5-10 turbospeed higher(maybe add 20 - 50 thrust), 80 cargo. UIT/TPG; 45k armour, 140 cargo, normal speed/turbo. All requiring 13 trade and 8/9 mining. Available in corvus as a weaker variant for 11 trade and 6 mining (with these stats : 25-30k hps, +20 thrust, 80 cargo).
EDIT: but I have been suggesting this difference for all the ships we have at our disposal so if I buy a serco warthog that it is different from an itani one, heck even from a uit one. At the same time I htink I also made sure that the real elite ships should be unattainable by the opposite party. This would create a feel to the sides you are supporting in stead of this if i fly itani its the same thing as if im flying uit or serco...
so the problem is that it isnt safe in grey space, and that the behemy makes it so?
well then i have to say: its not nesecaryiliy the behemy that is all out of whack. Maymi its the pirates that is making danger that is not there. just a thought.
EDIT: for those who dont understand how i think. There need to be more pirates, not a less fast ship. The reason the shhip is safe is because there is no one out there to hunt it.
another EDIT: see http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/2/10724#124387 last paragraph
well then i have to say: its not nesecaryiliy the behemy that is all out of whack. Maymi its the pirates that is making danger that is not there. just a thought.
EDIT: for those who dont understand how i think. There need to be more pirates, not a less fast ship. The reason the shhip is safe is because there is no one out there to hunt it.
another EDIT: see http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/2/10724#124387 last paragraph
who? me? I've been hunted in a Behemoth many, many, many times. The only thing you have to do to get away is boost. If the pirate is using energy, they have no hope of catching you. If the pirate is using rockets that may be a danger if they are in a ragnarok and have sunflares and jackhammers equipped, but it is still rediculously easy to get away since the rag will have some acceleration issues and you've got the 45k hull protecting you.
Perhaps there would be more pirates if the behemoth was a little slower. I'd like to see the Behemoth tweaked to 170 m/s top speed, and if that is still too fast down to 160 m/s. The thing is a tank, it oughta be about as fast as one.
Renegade yeah, I remember when the Centaur was referred to as the "Coffin" but that was due to its size, low(er) armor (14k), and lack of maneuverability, not its top speed. That was back in the day when engines were equippable, remember? All ships had the same top speed with the same engine. The only real factor was acceleration. Times sure have changed.
One more point, even at 160 m/s you could still get a bulk trade mission done in half the time with a Behemoth, it would just make things a little dicey in grey space.
Perhaps there would be more pirates if the behemoth was a little slower. I'd like to see the Behemoth tweaked to 170 m/s top speed, and if that is still too fast down to 160 m/s. The thing is a tank, it oughta be about as fast as one.
Renegade yeah, I remember when the Centaur was referred to as the "Coffin" but that was due to its size, low(er) armor (14k), and lack of maneuverability, not its top speed. That was back in the day when engines were equippable, remember? All ships had the same top speed with the same engine. The only real factor was acceleration. Times sure have changed.
One more point, even at 160 m/s you could still get a bulk trade mission done in half the time with a Behemoth, it would just make things a little dicey in grey space.
I like Spellcast's idea of reducing the turbo thrust. Leave top speed as-is. This way, the pirates just warp with you and on the other side of the WH, you're dead meat if you can't accelerate.
So we really like wormhole camping?
Seriously though, Spellcast does make a good point, but I like my suggestion better, and here's why:
Having a slower top speed means that if you ever do get chased by a pirate there will be an actual *chase* involved... the pirate can overtake you so you have to use your escorts, the station guard, and the terrain to your advantage. You would have to think in "legs" of where you want to boost to.
Slow accel but high top speed still means the best thing to do is boost in a straight line, and hope to get to that point where you're barreling along at 190 m/s.
It's another thought though... perhaps we could try a combination of the two ideas.
Seriously though, Spellcast does make a good point, but I like my suggestion better, and here's why:
Having a slower top speed means that if you ever do get chased by a pirate there will be an actual *chase* involved... the pirate can overtake you so you have to use your escorts, the station guard, and the terrain to your advantage. You would have to think in "legs" of where you want to boost to.
Slow accel but high top speed still means the best thing to do is boost in a straight line, and hope to get to that point where you're barreling along at 190 m/s.
It's another thought though... perhaps we could try a combination of the two ideas.
Pirates who wormhole-camp are easier targets for us [IA] and [VPR] folk. 'Least we know where they are.
/me is on the navpoint in b8 :P
and I DARE you to remove me from it! thats right a challenge!
and I DARE you to remove me from it! thats right a challenge!
Its just as easilly done to blast a 14k ship as a 40k armour ship, as long as you can overhaul quickly enough and a difference of 60 m/s is able to overhaul quickly enough. HP matters little if your fleeing.
That is th eonly reason why in ctc trnasports die so fast even while protected by a majority. The only reason why people die to escorts is because they are trying to get the dropped cargo.
That is th eonly reason why in ctc trnasports die so fast even while protected by a majority. The only reason why people die to escorts is because they are trying to get the dropped cargo.
umm... what's the alternative to wh camping?
as far as the behemoth, I totally agree, the thing has insane turbo acceleration, hits 150 before ANY other ship in the game.
as far as the behemoth, I totally agree, the thing has insane turbo acceleration, hits 150 before ANY other ship in the game.
unloaded however, load it up full and its a lumbering ship.
Like I proposed a couple of times putting in a little frontier so that only once you surpass that frontier the excess weight starts to have an influence on the behaviour of the ship although it will still move in the same manner if loaded under the limit or not at all. This way you can more easilly balance a full loadout with an empty one. Heck you could make a ship like the behmoth act in the same way if it is loaded with xith or samoflange. EG: you could for instance give it a freebie of 10k weight (100 very low weight tradegoods, meaning that the next 20 wil only affect its manouvrabiliy at all). Heck you could even lift it up to 20k so that light cargo would not at all affect manouvrability, but putting in heavier ones will slug it down. And to this effect you could again decrease the thrust to get it really slapped down once you put a lot in it.
It could even make the light traders surpreme for hauling quickly some light cargo from x to y. While the marauder could be seen as the ultimate light mediumcargo carrier. meaning that it has a higher limit before it gets bogged down but before it gets bogged down it has all the characteristics of a quick and rather nimble get in and out trader (maybe even by decreaing the number of weaponports)
Since pretty much all the problems stern from being unloaded. Once they are loaded they fly as they were intended, and fighting with them at that time is as good as a deathwish.
but im sidetracking once again :(
Like I proposed a couple of times putting in a little frontier so that only once you surpass that frontier the excess weight starts to have an influence on the behaviour of the ship although it will still move in the same manner if loaded under the limit or not at all. This way you can more easilly balance a full loadout with an empty one. Heck you could make a ship like the behmoth act in the same way if it is loaded with xith or samoflange. EG: you could for instance give it a freebie of 10k weight (100 very low weight tradegoods, meaning that the next 20 wil only affect its manouvrabiliy at all). Heck you could even lift it up to 20k so that light cargo would not at all affect manouvrability, but putting in heavier ones will slug it down. And to this effect you could again decrease the thrust to get it really slapped down once you put a lot in it.
It could even make the light traders surpreme for hauling quickly some light cargo from x to y. While the marauder could be seen as the ultimate light mediumcargo carrier. meaning that it has a higher limit before it gets bogged down but before it gets bogged down it has all the characteristics of a quick and rather nimble get in and out trader (maybe even by decreaing the number of weaponports)
Since pretty much all the problems stern from being unloaded. Once they are loaded they fly as they were intended, and fighting with them at that time is as good as a deathwish.
but im sidetracking once again :(
I think Phaserlight raises a good point about the thrust. However, if anyone has ever tried flying through Hated space in a Moth will know, you'll do fine until a Seeker hits you, because you just can't get going fast enough again to outrun anything.
So maybe take a bit off turbo thrust and a bit off top speed, but then give it like a drain of 55? I know running out of turbo isn't the same as getting slapped by a Seeker, but it still would make life more difficult.
So maybe take a bit off turbo thrust and a bit off top speed, but then give it like a drain of 55? I know running out of turbo isn't the same as getting slapped by a Seeker, but it still would make life more difficult.
Slow down the Behemoth. Amusing. How long and BORING do you want to make
trading? How easy do you want pirating to be? How much more vulnerable do you
want this ship to be? It's the largest "sitting duck" there is. A great deal is made
about the armour on this tub, but haven't you noticed that an Assault bot can burn
through "all that" armour before you can turn it to fire on your attacker?
Slow down the behemoth? No.
trading? How easy do you want pirating to be? How much more vulnerable do you
want this ship to be? It's the largest "sitting duck" there is. A great deal is made
about the armour on this tub, but haven't you noticed that an Assault bot can burn
through "all that" armour before you can turn it to fire on your attacker?
Slow down the behemoth? No.
How many times have you been killed while piloting this 'largest "sitting duck" there is', RattMann? But if you're turning to fight Assault bots like you mention later, don't bother answering this question.
And as I see it, adding risk makes trading less boring, not more. And if you want to make it not easy to be pirated when you're flying a Moth, hire escorts to defend you.
> A great deal is made about the armour on this tub, but haven't you noticed that an Assault
> bot can burn through "all that" armour before you can turn it to fire on your attacker?
And have you noticed, if you just keep running, rather than turning, you'll take less than 10% damage? Probably no damage at all, from Assault bots (depending on how lucky or unlucky you are with how close you are to the bots when you first come out of a jump).
And as I see it, adding risk makes trading less boring, not more. And if you want to make it not easy to be pirated when you're flying a Moth, hire escorts to defend you.
> A great deal is made about the armour on this tub, but haven't you noticed that an Assault
> bot can burn through "all that" armour before you can turn it to fire on your attacker?
And have you noticed, if you just keep running, rather than turning, you'll take less than 10% damage? Probably no damage at all, from Assault bots (depending on how lucky or unlucky you are with how close you are to the bots when you first come out of a jump).
I have used both methods to get through hostile sectors, trying to run and trying to fight. I have been killed quite a few times in both instances. Oddly, more times while trying to run. The bot flies up my tail-pipe and it's all over. Usually. Trying
the various evasive moves does not seem to work with this pig...
the various evasive moves does not seem to work with this pig...
a lot also depends on the type of cargo you have loaded. Ergo, load it up with full ferric and you know you are a sitting duck :D
Ehhh... I disagree. I don't know if it's just me, but I think the Behemoth is great as it is. Its slow turn rate makes it completely inneffective against combat, just as it should, but it's just barely fast enough to escape pirates if the player reacts quickly enough. In addition, right now I think it's painfully slow to trade even in a Centaur. But I'm not asking for a speed boost in the Centaur or anything. I'm just saying, with a Behemoth I don't even want to imagine how much slower and more boring trading would get if the speed was reduced.
There's one issue I take up when someone mentions that the Behemoth should require player escorts. And that's the fact that there aren't enough players online all the time to always rely on escorts. If you could hire NPC escorts that would be a different story. But as it is right now I don't think many people would use the Behemoth if it would require an escort. I don't believe any single player-controlled ship is worthy of an escort, to be a honest. A frigate I can understand, however. But a Behemoth is still a personal ship that is used for personal gain.
I think the main issue people are overlooking here is the fact that it's too easy to escape... PERIOD!! You can escape from anyone with just about any ship. That's the sad fact with the new system. PvP is hard to come by, unless you ask for a duel or you're defending traders against pirates who are absolutely determined to shoot down those juicy traders. But anyway, my point is it's too easy to just jump out of a system and vanish into thin space.
My suggestion is sort of similar to what someone said before. The ability to share navroutes. However, I'm not just talking about sharing navroutes between buddies and group members. I'm talking about the ability for the navcomputer to automatically plot a point that actually FOLLOWS the player you have targeted, assuming he/she is close to already tell you where he just jumped. In other words you shouldn't have to manually punch in the coordinates if that information is presented to you. I think that should be an automatic process for EVERY player.
That would definitely help add an element of excitement and make PvP more possible in the new universe. I would REALLY be excited if something like that were implemented. I just don't see the point in requiring the player to enter those navroutes manually if the computer just sits there and tells you stupidly where the other player went. By the time you enter that information in they'll be long gone!
There's one issue I take up when someone mentions that the Behemoth should require player escorts. And that's the fact that there aren't enough players online all the time to always rely on escorts. If you could hire NPC escorts that would be a different story. But as it is right now I don't think many people would use the Behemoth if it would require an escort. I don't believe any single player-controlled ship is worthy of an escort, to be a honest. A frigate I can understand, however. But a Behemoth is still a personal ship that is used for personal gain.
I think the main issue people are overlooking here is the fact that it's too easy to escape... PERIOD!! You can escape from anyone with just about any ship. That's the sad fact with the new system. PvP is hard to come by, unless you ask for a duel or you're defending traders against pirates who are absolutely determined to shoot down those juicy traders. But anyway, my point is it's too easy to just jump out of a system and vanish into thin space.
My suggestion is sort of similar to what someone said before. The ability to share navroutes. However, I'm not just talking about sharing navroutes between buddies and group members. I'm talking about the ability for the navcomputer to automatically plot a point that actually FOLLOWS the player you have targeted, assuming he/she is close to already tell you where he just jumped. In other words you shouldn't have to manually punch in the coordinates if that information is presented to you. I think that should be an automatic process for EVERY player.
That would definitely help add an element of excitement and make PvP more possible in the new universe. I would REALLY be excited if something like that were implemented. I just don't see the point in requiring the player to enter those navroutes manually if the computer just sits there and tells you stupidly where the other player went. By the time you enter that information in they'll be long gone!