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I think it's clear from Greenwall's analogy that incarnate doesn't mind this post since we have always been at war with Eastasia.
The plugin we used to know exists has never existed.
The plugin we used to know exists has never existed.
@Sieger
You have a vivid imagination for a rigid and uptight German guy but how the hell did you come up with all your theories about me (garnished with feeble insults you could come up with) based on my reply to Inc?
I will repeat it for clarity once more:
________________________________________
Ummm, I was looking at your first sentence Inc:
"Ok. You have a suspicion that there is a problem, but you don't want to say who did what and when. Without which this whole post is moot."
I think I 'un-mooted' the post by listing the usual suspects (it's basically the same group of people over and over, day after day) and time when it happened last (you can actually pick any day in the last 3-4 months, they did it).
And I tend to disagree with you - NOTHING has been achieved here except you asking us to hide the dirt under the rug.
Would support ticket really made any difference?
They are using the tools you allowed them to use and as long as you do allow it, it will be like Ecka said:
We will use any trick the devs allow us to get one over on the rest of you. Shove your ethics.
You have a vivid imagination for a rigid and uptight German guy but how the hell did you come up with all your theories about me (garnished with feeble insults you could come up with) based on my reply to Inc?
I will repeat it for clarity once more:
________________________________________
Ummm, I was looking at your first sentence Inc:
"Ok. You have a suspicion that there is a problem, but you don't want to say who did what and when. Without which this whole post is moot."
I think I 'un-mooted' the post by listing the usual suspects (it's basically the same group of people over and over, day after day) and time when it happened last (you can actually pick any day in the last 3-4 months, they did it).
And I tend to disagree with you - NOTHING has been achieved here except you asking us to hide the dirt under the rug.
Would support ticket really made any difference?
They are using the tools you allowed them to use and as long as you do allow it, it will be like Ecka said:
We will use any trick the devs allow us to get one over on the rest of you. Shove your ethics.
this is not a bug... why hasn't this been moved? /me demands moderation
I reject your demand for moderation and instead suggest this skin thickening cream. It works wonders and smooths out wrinkles.
"p.s. Rin and Savet, I don't need you to fix my metaphor."
Um, I haven't said anything in this thread until now (I haven't even visited the forum since Saturday).
Anyway. -1 to yoda's suggestion about nerfing the API further. As we've discussed before (and he acknowledged), those features he wants removed do provide legitimate utility to people. Yoda is suggesting that those features be removed because he thinks that the added difficulty their removal would cause to bot-makers would be worth the loss of the utility those features provide. However, that is not the case -- removing those features would only make it slightly more difficult to make bots. That slight difference is not worth the loss of functionality. Removing the ability to get your coordinates was worth the loss; it's possible to get around but takes a lot more work. Removing the ability to activate turbo or fire a gun is not worth the loss, because it is so trivial to get around.
The real problem here isn't these bots. The problem is that station conquest is too simplistic. If it wasn't such a braindead process of swarm-spamming, dumb bots like these would not be helpful in the first place.
Um, I haven't said anything in this thread until now (I haven't even visited the forum since Saturday).
Anyway. -1 to yoda's suggestion about nerfing the API further. As we've discussed before (and he acknowledged), those features he wants removed do provide legitimate utility to people. Yoda is suggesting that those features be removed because he thinks that the added difficulty their removal would cause to bot-makers would be worth the loss of the utility those features provide. However, that is not the case -- removing those features would only make it slightly more difficult to make bots. That slight difference is not worth the loss of functionality. Removing the ability to get your coordinates was worth the loss; it's possible to get around but takes a lot more work. Removing the ability to activate turbo or fire a gun is not worth the loss, because it is so trivial to get around.
The real problem here isn't these bots. The problem is that station conquest is too simplistic. If it wasn't such a braindead process of swarm-spamming, dumb bots like these would not be helpful in the first place.
Incarnate is right. Even without those features in the API someone could still make bots using a different language. There's not much that can be done about that except submitting a support ticket and letting them deal with it on a case by case basis.
Once again the titty twisting fight between bojan, skv, greenwall, and tgft has plauged another legitimate thread raising legitimate concerns.
Once again the titty twisting fight between bojan, skv, greenwall, and tgft has plauged another legitimate thread raising legitimate concerns.
The real problem here isn't these bots. The problem is that station conquest is too simplistic. If it wasn't such a braindead process of swarm-spamming, dumb bots like these would not be helpful.
False. There only real problem is lack of players to populate station conquests / defenses. Changing how difficult station conquests are would hurt other aspects of the game, which is why they were made easier in the first place.
If the process for taking a station was made more complex I'm quite sure multiple accounts and lua scripting would still see effective use.
Let's all keep in mind the "bot" nature of the observed characters is only alleged, which is far cry from a "fact". Even if Lisa discussed having such a plugin in another thread does not automatically mean all TGFT use it. Of course none of that really matters anyway since it uses commonly known and long in use features, AND incarnate has said it's a non-issue. So let's all just give Bojan and Boda some space for them to work through their feelings.
False. There only real problem is lack of players to populate station conquests / defenses. Changing how difficult station conquests are would hurt other aspects of the game, which is why they were made easier in the first place.
If the process for taking a station was made more complex I'm quite sure multiple accounts and lua scripting would still see effective use.
Let's all keep in mind the "bot" nature of the observed characters is only alleged, which is far cry from a "fact". Even if Lisa discussed having such a plugin in another thread does not automatically mean all TGFT use it. Of course none of that really matters anyway since it uses commonly known and long in use features, AND incarnate has said it's a non-issue. So let's all just give Bojan and Boda some space for them to work through their feelings.
I did not say it needs to be harder. I said more complex. The old way was just as exploitable as the current way, because it was the same simple process. It just took longer.
Continuing on Yoda's line...yes, TGFT is finally admitting that they DO in fact use autobombing plugins. Scrolling up in this VERY same thread you can read that Sieger categorically denies any use of these autobombing plugins and instead states it's just tsreknor being a multi-boxing boss. TGFT, I suggest that before you come to the forums with spur of the moment retorts that 12 of you all login again (for another meeting like you did yesterday) and get your stories straight. It's rather damning to your cause to contradict yourselves thusly!
@ Wally: since you didn't say I couldn't fix your metaphor...SKV is more like the baseball team that, seeing no real enemy, picked the ugliest and biggest corporate conglomerate team (TGFT), called them out onto the field of sportsmanship, and then watched as their opponents tried and failed at all sorts of shenanigans. Afterwhich said ugly corporates resorted to conducting their business incognito under different identities (other alts like TRI, INV, etc). [PA]thetic I say! [TRI]-try again!
@ Wally: since you didn't say I couldn't fix your metaphor...SKV is more like the baseball team that, seeing no real enemy, picked the ugliest and biggest corporate conglomerate team (TGFT), called them out onto the field of sportsmanship, and then watched as their opponents tried and failed at all sorts of shenanigans. Afterwhich said ugly corporates resorted to conducting their business incognito under different identities (other alts like TRI, INV, etc). [PA]thetic I say! [TRI]-try again!
Neener.
Look, I know a lot of you don't like the fact that controlling ANY aspect of ship control via plugins is BAD, but that was said when they removed basic movement control, but they still did. They can either half-ass it to protect a few plugins that are not officially supported, or do it whole heartedly and piss off a few lazy bastards.
The facts are simple, just because you can use a third party app does not make it right. Also it makes you people lazy. Are you trying to tell me that none of you can stack missiles WITHOUT a plugin to do it for you? Or that you cannot hold down the tab key to turbo out of most sectors? The fact that it breaks existing plugins isn't a reason not to do it, in fact that's the ONLY reason to do it.
Just because some people get an advantage over others through laziness is not a reason to not agree with me.
The facts are simple, just because you can use a third party app does not make it right. Also it makes you people lazy. Are you trying to tell me that none of you can stack missiles WITHOUT a plugin to do it for you? Or that you cannot hold down the tab key to turbo out of most sectors? The fact that it breaks existing plugins isn't a reason not to do it, in fact that's the ONLY reason to do it.
Just because some people get an advantage over others through laziness is not a reason to not agree with me.
And I tend to disagree with you - NOTHING has been achieved here except you asking us to hide the dirt under the rug.
Would support ticket really made any difference?
Yes. It would have made a difference. The key to resolving any issue is basically making it as non-annoying for me as possible.
If you want a problem to be resolved, then you should deliver the requested information to me, via the request manner, as promptly as possible. That means specifics, because we log huge amounts of data per day, and combing through them is very time consuming. The more specifics we have, the more quickly we'll look into the issue.
If you want me to basically do some sort of eyeroll-facepalm response, then please, kick up as much drama as possible on Bugs Forum thread until I lock it. That's a great strategy for delaying any solution. Here's a clarification for anyone who has forgotten..
THIS IS THE BUGS FORUM. This is not RP, or Suggestions, or even General, where I am more inclined to put up with stupid BS that wastes time and energy. That is not accepted here.
The Point of this Forum is to report specific issues, and deliver explicit and specific data about them, as succinctly as possible. This is not a place for your opinion. This is not a place for "debate". I am genuinely interested in your opinion in other places, like Suggestions.
Here, I do not give a rats-ass about your opinion.
I am only interested in investigating reported issues, and resolving them, as quickly as possible. That means, that all I want here is data. Any melodramatic crap that gets in the way of that is unwelcome, and will result in related people losing post-access to the Bugs forum.
We simply do not have the luxury of the signal-to-noise ratio falling here, the way it does elsewhere in the forums.
If you don't like this, disagree, believe that I am "sweeping everything under the rug" or some other BS, feel free to not post on this forum. But here's a hint: I don't give two craps whether people know or don't-know about issues like this, I only asked for Tickets to minimize the amount of bullshit I would have to wade through to try and determine what was actually going on. Pointless melodrama just makes the debugging process more annoying and time-consuming, and eventually causes me to go focus on something with a better time-to-productivity ratio
Make No Mistake: I am more than happy to piss off any group of players, and I will make any change that I believe is genuinely in the best interests of the game. All that is required is for us devs (internally) to be able to clearly identify the problem, and make a decision on how to proceed. And the fastest way to enable that, is to help me with the exact information I need, when, where and how I ask for it, with the minimum amount of extraneous crap.
Would support ticket really made any difference?
Yes. It would have made a difference. The key to resolving any issue is basically making it as non-annoying for me as possible.
If you want a problem to be resolved, then you should deliver the requested information to me, via the request manner, as promptly as possible. That means specifics, because we log huge amounts of data per day, and combing through them is very time consuming. The more specifics we have, the more quickly we'll look into the issue.
If you want me to basically do some sort of eyeroll-facepalm response, then please, kick up as much drama as possible on Bugs Forum thread until I lock it. That's a great strategy for delaying any solution. Here's a clarification for anyone who has forgotten..
THIS IS THE BUGS FORUM. This is not RP, or Suggestions, or even General, where I am more inclined to put up with stupid BS that wastes time and energy. That is not accepted here.
The Point of this Forum is to report specific issues, and deliver explicit and specific data about them, as succinctly as possible. This is not a place for your opinion. This is not a place for "debate". I am genuinely interested in your opinion in other places, like Suggestions.
Here, I do not give a rats-ass about your opinion.
I am only interested in investigating reported issues, and resolving them, as quickly as possible. That means, that all I want here is data. Any melodramatic crap that gets in the way of that is unwelcome, and will result in related people losing post-access to the Bugs forum.
We simply do not have the luxury of the signal-to-noise ratio falling here, the way it does elsewhere in the forums.
If you don't like this, disagree, believe that I am "sweeping everything under the rug" or some other BS, feel free to not post on this forum. But here's a hint: I don't give two craps whether people know or don't-know about issues like this, I only asked for Tickets to minimize the amount of bullshit I would have to wade through to try and determine what was actually going on. Pointless melodrama just makes the debugging process more annoying and time-consuming, and eventually causes me to go focus on something with a better time-to-productivity ratio
Make No Mistake: I am more than happy to piss off any group of players, and I will make any change that I believe is genuinely in the best interests of the game. All that is required is for us devs (internally) to be able to clearly identify the problem, and make a decision on how to proceed. And the fastest way to enable that, is to help me with the exact information I need, when, where and how I ask for it, with the minimum amount of extraneous crap.