Forums » Off-Topic
Foreword: I've skipped two pages of comments because this thread is getting long already.
While I'm no total noob in PvP, my skills still leave much to be desired in this area.
Because I'm also stubborn (and because I've stocked them somewhat), I've been keeping my Valks even after the recent ship changes. I've worked so damn hard to get to them that there's no way I'm going to sink down to more "common" ships (aka, an IBG) simply because they're better (ah!). Most anyone can get an IBG so thank you, I'll stick to my once veneered Valks.
On the Prom being insurmountable by anyone whom you'd down 99% of the time, well, that's a bit of an exaggeration. Today, I've downed a Prom with a Valk Rune in tight PvP situation in Sed B-8. My bulky Valk was geared with heavy weaponry: 3 Gauss Mk2. The ship weights more than 6000kg. But it does 3600 dammage per shot that lands.
Granted, the PvPer with whom I was against was, I'm told (and sorry whoever you are), less than my caliber—wich is no compliment by any length.
But it does show that a Prom can be taken out indeed.
However, I do agree that it's armour-to-weight ratio is not right, compared to other comparable ships (a Rag ought to be somewhat similar to a Prom). It took quite a few Gauss Mk2 hits to down him, while I was taking heavy dammage myself from the barrage of missiles. Such-equipped Valks are slow to move.
--Mogul Valeio
While I'm no total noob in PvP, my skills still leave much to be desired in this area.
Because I'm also stubborn (and because I've stocked them somewhat), I've been keeping my Valks even after the recent ship changes. I've worked so damn hard to get to them that there's no way I'm going to sink down to more "common" ships (aka, an IBG) simply because they're better (ah!). Most anyone can get an IBG so thank you, I'll stick to my once veneered Valks.
On the Prom being insurmountable by anyone whom you'd down 99% of the time, well, that's a bit of an exaggeration. Today, I've downed a Prom with a Valk Rune in tight PvP situation in Sed B-8. My bulky Valk was geared with heavy weaponry: 3 Gauss Mk2. The ship weights more than 6000kg. But it does 3600 dammage per shot that lands.
Granted, the PvPer with whom I was against was, I'm told (and sorry whoever you are), less than my caliber—wich is no compliment by any length.
But it does show that a Prom can be taken out indeed.
However, I do agree that it's armour-to-weight ratio is not right, compared to other comparable ships (a Rag ought to be somewhat similar to a Prom). It took quite a few Gauss Mk2 hits to down him, while I was taking heavy dammage myself from the barrage of missiles. Such-equipped Valks are slow to move.
--Mogul Valeio
Thank you softy2 for eloquently pointing out to us how we're becoming elitist and condescending. As I think about it, it's a lot more fun to be a n00b when everyone tries to help you, as supposed to when you know what you are talking about and everyone tears you down. At least as a n00b no one takes you seriously enough to get all huffy on you about topics such as ship balancing.
"all this flamy/condescension/elitist-crapfest that is being spewed here is taking away all the enjoyment I have from playing this game." I completely agree. If the attitude of the players doesn't change really soon, I think there'll be lots of people that will leave this game (me being one of them). And it'll be a huge shame. Even if the change in player attitude means taking out the global chat function (not that i'm suggesting that).
But enough with the moral relflections...
Lin- "@tboyz007: What gives you the right to say that the prom should be a sluggish ship? Just because it's big?" You're right. The prom should be extremely fast and responsive. In fact, all heavy ships should be fast and resposive. Because who has the right to say that they should be slow? Screw Newton and his "inertia." Physics doesn't matter anyway...
Anyways, this thread is drifting even further off topic, with the introduction of Rails. I think it might be about time to close it or start a new one...
"all this flamy/condescension/elitist-crapfest that is being spewed here is taking away all the enjoyment I have from playing this game." I completely agree. If the attitude of the players doesn't change really soon, I think there'll be lots of people that will leave this game (me being one of them). And it'll be a huge shame. Even if the change in player attitude means taking out the global chat function (not that i'm suggesting that).
But enough with the moral relflections...
Lin- "@tboyz007: What gives you the right to say that the prom should be a sluggish ship? Just because it's big?" You're right. The prom should be extremely fast and responsive. In fact, all heavy ships should be fast and resposive. Because who has the right to say that they should be slow? Screw Newton and his "inertia." Physics doesn't matter anyway...
Anyways, this thread is drifting even further off topic, with the introduction of Rails. I think it might be about time to close it or start a new one...
Vets lose perspective sometimes. We/They forget what it was like to die every five minutes trying to learn how to fight, and then doing it again when we came upon an unfamiliar ship/weapon combo. So we don't always give newer players much of a chance when they start to complain: "Oh just learn how to do it."
On the other hand, new players simply haven't developed the perspective of vets. Yes, you can beat a prom as is with a Vult. It takes a lot of practice - weeks worth. The new prom hasn't been out long enough for people to learn how to effectively fight it, although some players are learning, and older players are remembering. We're really not condescending when we say that you have to keep practicing and adapt. The new prom changed the way combat works - yes, it's much much harder, perhaps a tad too hard, but it is still beatable with practice.
That's what this game comes down to. If you expect an easy breezy run through other players, then you're not going to find it. The reason proms look so godly nowadays is because most people can't fight them. They are overpowered, but not so much so that the entire itani nation is rendered impotent. You can make the kill if you practice enough - what I see here is people getting frustrated and not practicing. Yeah, it's hard and annoying, but the Serco had it the other way around for a long, long time. They complained, but they also fought.
The light ships are being rebalanced soon. Stick around to see what happens after that before you storm off. Another reason vets have a jaded view of complaints like these and threats to leave is that invariably they are addressed, or someone figures out a way to overcome the imbalance. Patience. When the light fighters get changed to reflect the changes in the heavies, don't be suprised if the practice you put in now pays off big time later.
Patience.
On the other hand, new players simply haven't developed the perspective of vets. Yes, you can beat a prom as is with a Vult. It takes a lot of practice - weeks worth. The new prom hasn't been out long enough for people to learn how to effectively fight it, although some players are learning, and older players are remembering. We're really not condescending when we say that you have to keep practicing and adapt. The new prom changed the way combat works - yes, it's much much harder, perhaps a tad too hard, but it is still beatable with practice.
That's what this game comes down to. If you expect an easy breezy run through other players, then you're not going to find it. The reason proms look so godly nowadays is because most people can't fight them. They are overpowered, but not so much so that the entire itani nation is rendered impotent. You can make the kill if you practice enough - what I see here is people getting frustrated and not practicing. Yeah, it's hard and annoying, but the Serco had it the other way around for a long, long time. They complained, but they also fought.
The light ships are being rebalanced soon. Stick around to see what happens after that before you storm off. Another reason vets have a jaded view of complaints like these and threats to leave is that invariably they are addressed, or someone figures out a way to overcome the imbalance. Patience. When the light fighters get changed to reflect the changes in the heavies, don't be suprised if the practice you put in now pays off big time later.
Patience.
@tboyz - I quote from the Prom's official description:
"Serco engineers were rumored to have started the Prometheus designs by retrofitting a frigate engine into the framework of a relatively tiny fighter-sized ship frame, then sheathed it in xi-rite alloys."
In other words, we've got a capital-class engine with a seat and some armor strapped on. It's massive, but there's a massive engine to move it around, too.
"Serco engineers were rumored to have started the Prometheus designs by retrofitting a frigate engine into the framework of a relatively tiny fighter-sized ship frame, then sheathed it in xi-rite alloys."
In other words, we've got a capital-class engine with a seat and some armor strapped on. It's massive, but there's a massive engine to move it around, too.
@ctishman- Yeah, i read that...but I don't think the ship's stats should go word-for-word with the description...because the descriptions are just that...descriptions. They may sound ok on paper, but they need to be tweeked in practice. But good point anyway, though maybe the description should be tweaked a little (If you read the rest of the prom description, it makes it seem like an uber unfair ship).
@starfisher- Your post was probably the best on this string yet. I'd rather argue over this with your well-thought-out patient and two-sided arguements than some of these other posts. You're right, I guess the prom is killable, but just slightly too unkillable. And thanks for not saying "Get used to it" but instead saying "Have patience." That's only a slightly different message, but a much more cordial and un-hostile way of saying it. (Makes me wanna take your advice as opposed to ignoring you and ranting about something else you said). Thanks for making a fair argument for both sides, explaining the vet's attitudes, and respecting smittens' and my (and other's) opinions. You've kinda saved the game for me in a sense...Thanks.
@starfisher- Your post was probably the best on this string yet. I'd rather argue over this with your well-thought-out patient and two-sided arguements than some of these other posts. You're right, I guess the prom is killable, but just slightly too unkillable. And thanks for not saying "Get used to it" but instead saying "Have patience." That's only a slightly different message, but a much more cordial and un-hostile way of saying it. (Makes me wanna take your advice as opposed to ignoring you and ranting about something else you said). Thanks for making a fair argument for both sides, explaining the vet's attitudes, and respecting smittens' and my (and other's) opinions. You've kinda saved the game for me in a sense...Thanks.
@starfisher - agreed.
@tboyz - agreed here, too. I don't want the Prom to be a brick, but I do want the Itani to have a modicum of fun trying before I wipe space with 'em. The weapon of choice for a light, agile fighter should be the railgun, and right now there's little incentive to use one. Here are my proposed changes to the lineup.
Railgun MKI - "The Ham 'n Eggs".
-1400 damage.
-Price dropped to 1500.
Railgun MKII - "The Efficiency Nut".
-Price reduced to 2500.
-Energy usage & cooldown period reduced.
-Magazine increased to 35 shots.
-Requires Sniper level 1 medal.
Railgun MKIII - "The Spry Sniper"
-Damage reduced to 1200.
-shot speed boosted.
-Cooldown time slightly increased.
-Mass reduced to 600.
-Price reduced to 4500.
-Requires Sniper level 2 medal.
Railgun Advanced - "The Master's Blade"
-2000 damage/shot.
-Increased shot speed
-Mass cut to 400.
-Magazine increased to 45 shots.
-Price increased to 10000 (like I said, it's the master's blade).
-Requires Sniper level 3 medal.
@tboyz - agreed here, too. I don't want the Prom to be a brick, but I do want the Itani to have a modicum of fun trying before I wipe space with 'em. The weapon of choice for a light, agile fighter should be the railgun, and right now there's little incentive to use one. Here are my proposed changes to the lineup.
Railgun MKI - "The Ham 'n Eggs".
-1400 damage.
-Price dropped to 1500.
Railgun MKII - "The Efficiency Nut".
-Price reduced to 2500.
-Energy usage & cooldown period reduced.
-Magazine increased to 35 shots.
-Requires Sniper level 1 medal.
Railgun MKIII - "The Spry Sniper"
-Damage reduced to 1200.
-shot speed boosted.
-Cooldown time slightly increased.
-Mass reduced to 600.
-Price reduced to 4500.
-Requires Sniper level 2 medal.
Railgun Advanced - "The Master's Blade"
-2000 damage/shot.
-Increased shot speed
-Mass cut to 400.
-Magazine increased to 45 shots.
-Price increased to 10000 (like I said, it's the master's blade).
-Requires Sniper level 3 medal.
Ok, light fighters need something better to combat the Skycommand with. I got hold of it for the first time, it feels like the pre-nerf prom with a little less hull. Its INSANE.
The power...
Railguns if boosted could prove very dangerous against such a large target, though. But if boosted too much theyll be able to hit fighters 100% of the time from 200m away. Which is bad.
The solution is probably not to speed them up any further, but to make whoever is hit by them go "OH $#!¬"- so up the damage a bit, reduce the magazine a bit, and cut the energy cost to like, 80/shot even on the basic one.
The power...
Railguns if boosted could prove very dangerous against such a large target, though. But if boosted too much theyll be able to hit fighters 100% of the time from 200m away. Which is bad.
The solution is probably not to speed them up any further, but to make whoever is hit by them go "OH $#!¬"- so up the damage a bit, reduce the magazine a bit, and cut the energy cost to like, 80/shot even on the basic one.
Ctishman- I like your ideas, however remember: If we make rails too uber, then they'll be the only weapons used. Also, it'll give power players (ones who can get the Adv. Rail) a huge advantage. A railgun advance, by your proposal, could kill a valk rune in 5 shots. It'll be too much of an advantage to the power player. But the rail should be changed a little to affect big ships more than little ships...I don't know how to do that...
Reduce the magazine??? Dear god triple it and add ammo mass.
/givemoney Devs 2c
/givemoney Devs 2c
Actually, ships should get lighter as you dispence ammo (as that is most the mass, usually) It has been suggested so many times im sure it will be in the Wiki somewhere, heh, just my thought on making rails more usefull..
IE, sure the rails weigh ya down a lil, but after ya fart em all out, the launcher weighs 100
.
But alas, thats for another thread =D
[Edit]
Of course this would apply to all ammo weapons...
IE, sure the rails weigh ya down a lil, but after ya fart em all out, the launcher weighs 100
.
But alas, thats for another thread =D
[Edit]
Of course this would apply to all ammo weapons...
Yah, that makes sense yoda.
@tboy: well, the 500 pk medal SHOULD be pretty uber, at least on par with N3's, Seeing as its a good deal harder to get 500 pk's than it is to wait for your nation to win.
@tboy: well, the 500 pk medal SHOULD be pretty uber, at least on par with N3's, Seeing as its a good deal harder to get 500 pk's than it is to wait for your nation to win.
Shape, I guess that all depends on whether or not you have the 500 pk medal =p. For instance, you've got it, and even without an uber rail gun you could kill any of us easily. Why give you an even bigger advantage? =p. But I guess I wouldn't know, seeing that I'm only nearing my 100 pk medal...
But yes, they should be AT LEAST on par with neut III's, but different. They should take lots of skill to use (which rails do) but shouldn't be like instant-killie or anything like that...they cant be too good.
But yes, they should be AT LEAST on par with neut III's, but different. They should take lots of skill to use (which rails do) but shouldn't be like instant-killie or anything like that...they cant be too good.
And just to clarify. On par with neut doesn't mean dps. . . Cause that'd just be insane.
i just saw a prom kill 3 itani in a 3 on 1 fight.
it was horrible! the prom pilot started out with like 50 percent
and after the fight was at like 35%. the other three pilots, itani,
were scattered into interstellar dust.
this horrific slaughter was caused by the prom/flare/AGT...
oh wait.. nevermind that. the pilot was actually using dual neutrons.
it was horrible! the prom pilot started out with like 50 percent
and after the fight was at like 35%. the other three pilots, itani,
were scattered into interstellar dust.
this horrific slaughter was caused by the prom/flare/AGT...
oh wait.. nevermind that. the pilot was actually using dual neutrons.
This really sounds fun, I wish I had some money to update my membership :)
well actually it was nice to see (i was one of the 3) - hats off to the pilot
Hehe, thanks, actually the pilot was me. I love that combo, N3's and jacks
ananzi, I won a 3 v 1 fight in a hog... what are you saying? If Shape beat three good Itani pilots, that's one thing, but if they weren't cooperating very well, and didn't know how to fight in groups, that's another. Course then again, Shape could probably beat three Itani pilots in a vulture.
I think you misunderstood Ananzi's point - which was precisely that the ship and equipment is secondary to the pilot's skills. And yes, we were coordinating very badly. That was far from easy against Shape - but we'll try to do better next time :)
After reading this whole thing, I think I can safely say the point of this long thread is that Serco needs to make a Skycommand Atlas.