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It's not really the AGTs, it's the rockets. a light fighter, to use it's agility advantage. Has to "circle" the big ship. However, to circle it, you have to be pretty close. Get close and the prom pilot will just fire the flares, and they don't have to be exactly facing you. The Flares will barely scratch the prom because of its hull, but will heavily damage the light fighter, be it vulture or centurion (or in rare cases, valk).
Maybe the bombers/heavies (rag, prom, centaur) can use a rocket safety feature inside 100m (for both its small and large ports). I mean bombers should be killing the capital ships, right? they wouldn't want bobmers ramming into the cap ship, because the bomber will get killed but the cap ship won't. And they also wouldn't want bombers wasting ammo on some fighter that just passed by (or its escorts).
However, this idea doesn't really make sense until capital ships are put in.
Maybe the bombers/heavies (rag, prom, centaur) can use a rocket safety feature inside 100m (for both its small and large ports). I mean bombers should be killing the capital ships, right? they wouldn't want bobmers ramming into the cap ship, because the bomber will get killed but the cap ship won't. And they also wouldn't want bombers wasting ammo on some fighter that just passed by (or its escorts).
However, this idea doesn't really make sense until capital ships are put in.
yah, I think it would be interesting if rockets, like mines, had a second or 2 activation. In order to rocketram someone, you'd have to be perfectly aimed so that the rocket would connect.
Some people get stuck in their techniques, others adapt.
It's the natural order of things, if you don't adapt, you become extinct.
From this thread, i can see exactly who's who. :)
Temp.
It's the natural order of things, if you don't adapt, you become extinct.
From this thread, i can see exactly who's who. :)
Temp.
Where to begin....
I'll start with smittens original post.
A very well thought out commentary, but as others mentioned you seem to have based it on fighting using the same tactics that were needed in a light vs light fight.
A lot of players dont do as well in a fast paced, close up combat where super fast reflexes are the most important thing. Sometimes having the armor to take a few hits and turn around to return fire makes the difference.
The prom is a tank, its designed to be the victor in a 1v1 standing slugfest. (it could possibly use a small reduction in thrust to make it slightly less agile, maybe 20 to 40 N of thrust across the board to start and go from there.)
What the prom cannot do effectivly is choose the battlefield on the fly. A light ship can ALWAYS choose to disengage from a prom, because it accelerats much better and flys much faster.
Hit and run tactics when done correctly are a prom's worst nightmare, especially in a 2v1 situation. Against that type of attack a prom will quickly find itself dead, or be forced to run for 3,000 meters and flee. Even with 2 or 3v1 if the attackers stay close, the prom is powerful enough to do some significant damage. If all the attackers remain nearby and allow the prom pilot to pick a single target to work on, that pilot is in trouble.
As to the AGT, It's more or less fine, you just absoulutely can NEVER turbo near it. and even flying in a straight line is a serious mistake.
Rockets are a problem, and have been for a long time. All the way back to the tri-flare Valk ramming days people (myself in particular) have been suggesting that unguided rockets have an activation time, or "safety" of some sort. 1 second would be enough to stop the vast majority of rocket rams. For those unfamiliar with the concept, a safety is where the warhead will not arm for a certain amount of time after being fired. This is done to prevent splash damage from affecting the firing craft.
All in all I would rathar not get too overexcited about the balance issues until the devs have finsihed balancing the medium ships (warthog, hornet, wraith) and retweaked everything. Way way way way way back when in alpha we had a nice selection of ships and weapons that was almost perfectly balanced. Everything had strengths and weaknesses, and i have faith that the devs will be able to achieve that again if we give them some time.
I'll start with smittens original post.
A very well thought out commentary, but as others mentioned you seem to have based it on fighting using the same tactics that were needed in a light vs light fight.
A lot of players dont do as well in a fast paced, close up combat where super fast reflexes are the most important thing. Sometimes having the armor to take a few hits and turn around to return fire makes the difference.
The prom is a tank, its designed to be the victor in a 1v1 standing slugfest. (it could possibly use a small reduction in thrust to make it slightly less agile, maybe 20 to 40 N of thrust across the board to start and go from there.)
What the prom cannot do effectivly is choose the battlefield on the fly. A light ship can ALWAYS choose to disengage from a prom, because it accelerats much better and flys much faster.
Hit and run tactics when done correctly are a prom's worst nightmare, especially in a 2v1 situation. Against that type of attack a prom will quickly find itself dead, or be forced to run for 3,000 meters and flee. Even with 2 or 3v1 if the attackers stay close, the prom is powerful enough to do some significant damage. If all the attackers remain nearby and allow the prom pilot to pick a single target to work on, that pilot is in trouble.
As to the AGT, It's more or less fine, you just absoulutely can NEVER turbo near it. and even flying in a straight line is a serious mistake.
Rockets are a problem, and have been for a long time. All the way back to the tri-flare Valk ramming days people (myself in particular) have been suggesting that unguided rockets have an activation time, or "safety" of some sort. 1 second would be enough to stop the vast majority of rocket rams. For those unfamiliar with the concept, a safety is where the warhead will not arm for a certain amount of time after being fired. This is done to prevent splash damage from affecting the firing craft.
All in all I would rathar not get too overexcited about the balance issues until the devs have finsihed balancing the medium ships (warthog, hornet, wraith) and retweaked everything. Way way way way way back when in alpha we had a nice selection of ships and weapons that was almost perfectly balanced. Everything had strengths and weaknesses, and i have faith that the devs will be able to achieve that again if we give them some time.
I would also add, that in the interests of balance, there should be a corresponding UIT/Itani heavy option. Centaurs are reasonably useful, but in a sense, really shouldn't be.
The Centaur is a better Bomber than a rag, having more thrust, and generally weighing a good deal less. Just as the Valk has its counters in the form of the many light ships across the galaxy, the prom should have the same.
If it IS clear that the prom will be the champion of 1v1 combat against light ships. Then for us duelists, we should have options.
The Centaur is a better Bomber than a rag, having more thrust, and generally weighing a good deal less. Just as the Valk has its counters in the form of the many light ships across the galaxy, the prom should have the same.
If it IS clear that the prom will be the champion of 1v1 combat against light ships. Then for us duelists, we should have options.
"You need new techniques" "You need to adapt" "Get new techniques" "You're stuck with your old techniques" "Get new tactics" "You need to adapt to new tactics."
New tactics? NEW TACTICS? Is standing still in a prometheus and firing rocket and only pivoting and firing an AGT a TACTIC??? Is a n00b in a prom that kills a vet in a cent or even hog using TACTICS??? The thing that Smittens was originially COMPLAINING about was the LACK of tactics needed to fly a prom. And it bugs me how some players (no names no flames) are so smug about their proms, telling others to adapt.
The thing about proms is that all you need to do is pivot and shoot, pivot and shoot. You have forever, because nothing can damage you. And with an AGT, who's lock-on target covers, well, 1/4 of the 'celestial sphere' around your ship, that makes pivoting pretty simple.
Now, some responses.
Spellcast-About hit and run, the prom is light enough so that if you hit, they run. It's not how we all imagine it-a few light ships flying in circles around a sluggish slow heavy ship. The prom is HARDLY a sluggish, slow, heavy ship. It's only 10,000 kg's!!
Yoda-About your second to last line, the Itani getting Proms...Two things: 1. We shouldn't HAVE to go into Serco territory to get the ultimate ship, we should have our OWN ultimate ship(and the valk is hardly 'ultimate') 2. If you've noticed the border between itani and serco space, in that wormhole that connects Serco Space to Itani Space, there is a Station on the serco side, but not on the Itani side. I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that that means that the serco don't have Strike Force and seekers on their tail when they bot in Itani space, but Itani will have all of the Strike force if they try to bot in serco space. Makes it a lot harder, doesn't it?
Temporalis-Can you fight in a light ship against a Prometheus?
No math this time, however, I'd like some ships that you guys think COULD kill a prom.
New tactics? NEW TACTICS? Is standing still in a prometheus and firing rocket and only pivoting and firing an AGT a TACTIC??? Is a n00b in a prom that kills a vet in a cent or even hog using TACTICS??? The thing that Smittens was originially COMPLAINING about was the LACK of tactics needed to fly a prom. And it bugs me how some players (no names no flames) are so smug about their proms, telling others to adapt.
The thing about proms is that all you need to do is pivot and shoot, pivot and shoot. You have forever, because nothing can damage you. And with an AGT, who's lock-on target covers, well, 1/4 of the 'celestial sphere' around your ship, that makes pivoting pretty simple.
Now, some responses.
Spellcast-About hit and run, the prom is light enough so that if you hit, they run. It's not how we all imagine it-a few light ships flying in circles around a sluggish slow heavy ship. The prom is HARDLY a sluggish, slow, heavy ship. It's only 10,000 kg's!!
Yoda-About your second to last line, the Itani getting Proms...Two things: 1. We shouldn't HAVE to go into Serco territory to get the ultimate ship, we should have our OWN ultimate ship(and the valk is hardly 'ultimate') 2. If you've noticed the border between itani and serco space, in that wormhole that connects Serco Space to Itani Space, there is a Station on the serco side, but not on the Itani side. I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that that means that the serco don't have Strike Force and seekers on their tail when they bot in Itani space, but Itani will have all of the Strike force if they try to bot in serco space. Makes it a lot harder, doesn't it?
Temporalis-Can you fight in a light ship against a Prometheus?
No math this time, however, I'd like some ships that you guys think COULD kill a prom.
Which brings up another point. None of you new players know how to use rockets other than get into the proximity radius and blast away. There are ways to use rockets, and ways not to use them. If used properly the prom is screwed.
tboyz007: I have been flying vendetta ships for a long long time. My comments are based on experience. to reply to your rant:
>>Is standing still in a prometheus and firing rocket and only pivoting and firing an AGT a TACTIC??? <<
more or less. If its doing that, stay the hell away from it. sometimes knowing when to back off is an important part of combat.
>>About hit and run, the prom is light enough so that if you hit, they run. It's not how we all imagine it-a few light ships flying in circles around a sluggish slow heavy ship. The prom is HARDLY a sluggish, slow, heavy ship. It's only 10,000 kg's!!<<
You are thinking in terms of a light fighter engagement still, light vs heavy is not going to be something that ends in a few seconds, if the prom wants to avoid the fight, he's probably going to be able to, but a light fighter can disengage from a prom MUCH faster than a prom can run away from a light fighter.
>>About your second to last line, the Itani getting Proms...Two things: 1. We shouldn't HAVE to go into Serco territory to get the ultimate ship, we should have our OWN ultimate ship(and the valk is hardly 'ultimate'<< just from the standpoint of someone who sat through 2 years of the valk being the ultimate fighter, this comment is very funny. You are correct however, itani should not have to go into serco space to get the best ship, luckily they dont have to. The valk is still a dangerous ship to fight, and the AGT is hardly undodgable.
What i see is primarily a bunch of itani pilots who used to have everything thier own way because the serco special was a brick with a target painted on it, getting upset because they now have a challenge. (not you smittens, shape) and as i said in my above post, I would be willing to have the thrust of the prom reduced a little bit to see if that evens it out some, but getting all excited at this point is rediculous. The devs are still tweaking things, and tactics for a useful heavy ship are different.
A warthog SHOULD have a decent chance against a prom, its large enough to mount a L-port weapon, but should be more agile than the prom. Unfortunately the warthog hasn't been retweaked very much yet, once that happens we shall see what comes about.
>>Is standing still in a prometheus and firing rocket and only pivoting and firing an AGT a TACTIC??? <<
more or less. If its doing that, stay the hell away from it. sometimes knowing when to back off is an important part of combat.
>>About hit and run, the prom is light enough so that if you hit, they run. It's not how we all imagine it-a few light ships flying in circles around a sluggish slow heavy ship. The prom is HARDLY a sluggish, slow, heavy ship. It's only 10,000 kg's!!<<
You are thinking in terms of a light fighter engagement still, light vs heavy is not going to be something that ends in a few seconds, if the prom wants to avoid the fight, he's probably going to be able to, but a light fighter can disengage from a prom MUCH faster than a prom can run away from a light fighter.
>>About your second to last line, the Itani getting Proms...Two things: 1. We shouldn't HAVE to go into Serco territory to get the ultimate ship, we should have our OWN ultimate ship(and the valk is hardly 'ultimate'<< just from the standpoint of someone who sat through 2 years of the valk being the ultimate fighter, this comment is very funny. You are correct however, itani should not have to go into serco space to get the best ship, luckily they dont have to. The valk is still a dangerous ship to fight, and the AGT is hardly undodgable.
What i see is primarily a bunch of itani pilots who used to have everything thier own way because the serco special was a brick with a target painted on it, getting upset because they now have a challenge. (not you smittens, shape) and as i said in my above post, I would be willing to have the thrust of the prom reduced a little bit to see if that evens it out some, but getting all excited at this point is rediculous. The devs are still tweaking things, and tactics for a useful heavy ship are different.
A warthog SHOULD have a decent chance against a prom, its large enough to mount a L-port weapon, but should be more agile than the prom. Unfortunately the warthog hasn't been retweaked very much yet, once that happens we shall see what comes about.
Phoenix: this brings up a few interesting points,
1. Yah, rockets can be used very interestingly, however, the current scenario does not require skillful use.
2. If this IS a skill-based game, then new players are constantly going to exist, and requiring a certain skill set to even be slightly combat viable against any particular ship may be counterproductive.
Lets look at the Matchups, Vet vs New player of each set
Vet: Valk- New Guy:Prom
with the most common layouts, prom + AGT/flares, valk with tri-N3's.
The valk will almost certainly win, but I would probably put the valk at between 70-80% at the end if the Prom just uses spam tactics, unless he makes a slight mistake, in which case this could drop to 20% or even a loss.
REVERSED
Valk likely won't get a hit off. If its a skillful rocketpilot, a set of a few flares and the corresponding AGT hits that come with them will make this a quick fight. If the vet makes a mistake, the prom will be lenient, percentage probably won't drop more than about 80% at the max
Finally
when we consider all of this, we must consider presence of the Gold nation, they have never had either the Valk OR the prom, and have been expected to choose sides and grab one or the other. They have made do with this, but I really think that the value of a true third nation cannot be expressed here.
The universe shouldn't be black and white. Heavy/Light was the dynamic before, but there are so many possible ways to add a third or fourth road now.
1. Yah, rockets can be used very interestingly, however, the current scenario does not require skillful use.
2. If this IS a skill-based game, then new players are constantly going to exist, and requiring a certain skill set to even be slightly combat viable against any particular ship may be counterproductive.
Lets look at the Matchups, Vet vs New player of each set
Vet: Valk- New Guy:Prom
with the most common layouts, prom + AGT/flares, valk with tri-N3's.
The valk will almost certainly win, but I would probably put the valk at between 70-80% at the end if the Prom just uses spam tactics, unless he makes a slight mistake, in which case this could drop to 20% or even a loss.
REVERSED
Valk likely won't get a hit off. If its a skillful rocketpilot, a set of a few flares and the corresponding AGT hits that come with them will make this a quick fight. If the vet makes a mistake, the prom will be lenient, percentage probably won't drop more than about 80% at the max
Finally
when we consider all of this, we must consider presence of the Gold nation, they have never had either the Valk OR the prom, and have been expected to choose sides and grab one or the other. They have made do with this, but I really think that the value of a true third nation cannot be expressed here.
The universe shouldn't be black and white. Heavy/Light was the dynamic before, but there are so many possible ways to add a third or fourth road now.
I don't think there is much wrong with the new proms. The AGT is an issue, but the main problem is IMO that the valk is just totally useless. I can beat any prom in a IBG, but I can barely hit one in a valk. There is nothing advanced about the valk any more. Its the slowest fighter and the biggest target of all light ships. That's ridiculous. I will check back in a month and see whether the valk has been fixed or not. I still think more effort should be put into game balancing. I prefer being able to play the little content there is vs having some new content soon(TM) but not being able to enjoy the game much right now. Sigh.
"I can beat any prom in a IBG, but I can barely hit one in a valk. There is nothing advanced about the valk any more. Its the slowest fighter and the biggest target of all light ships. "
Then seriously, I think you're probably doing something VERY wrong if you're having that tough a time using the valk. It is one of the fastest fighters, but with its three s-ports, you can run the risk of weighing it down so that it does BECOME one of the slowest light fighters. Yea, three gauss cannons are powerful, but notice that they double your weight. Yea, three sunflares are powerful, but again, they double your weight. With the right weapons mix, however, you can pack a heavy punch, and still be light on your feet.
Then seriously, I think you're probably doing something VERY wrong if you're having that tough a time using the valk. It is one of the fastest fighters, but with its three s-ports, you can run the risk of weighing it down so that it does BECOME one of the slowest light fighters. Yea, three gauss cannons are powerful, but notice that they double your weight. Yea, three sunflares are powerful, but again, they double your weight. With the right weapons mix, however, you can pack a heavy punch, and still be light on your feet.
But Centurions are faster, and lighter, and smaller. The Valkyrie is not better than a Centurion. The Centurion is a 1/1/-/-/- ship, the Valkyrie is an 8/8/-/-/- ship. Something is amiss here.
-:sigma.SB
-:sigma.SB
Why dont we all just fly round in different coloured busses ?
Would stop all this, as far as I can rememebr its been *that ships too good, why dont we have one?* since this game began.
Well guess what YOU DO, you just have to work for it, YOU DONT LIKE THE VETS IN PROMS? GO GET A FREEKING PROM!
Like we used to have to get valks
/me ignores this thread.
Would stop all this, as far as I can rememebr its been *that ships too good, why dont we have one?* since this game began.
Well guess what YOU DO, you just have to work for it, YOU DONT LIKE THE VETS IN PROMS? GO GET A FREEKING PROM!
Like we used to have to get valks
/me ignores this thread.
[Deleted]
/me gets disappointed and gives up.
yoda, you guys didn't have to get valks. I remember the old SVG-valk matchup. It was actually pretty close.
I was a valk jock, who converted and flew nothin but SVG's and Corvus vulturiouseseses. That is, in fact, when I started playin a serco char, cuz the SVG was just badass, and impossible to hit. The serco constantly complained about the valk, just like the itani are currently complaining about the prom. And your solution appears to be, leave it as it is.
I mean seriously people, take this forum back 2 months and you'd have all the same arguments, except with serco replacing itani, and prom replacing valk.
Now, I can totally understand that the serco are still pissed that they were forced to play underdog, but seriously, you guys were in the same position, is this the solution you were after then?
I was a valk jock, who converted and flew nothin but SVG's and Corvus vulturiouseseses. That is, in fact, when I started playin a serco char, cuz the SVG was just badass, and impossible to hit. The serco constantly complained about the valk, just like the itani are currently complaining about the prom. And your solution appears to be, leave it as it is.
I mean seriously people, take this forum back 2 months and you'd have all the same arguments, except with serco replacing itani, and prom replacing valk.
Now, I can totally understand that the serco are still pissed that they were forced to play underdog, but seriously, you guys were in the same position, is this the solution you were after then?
No, they just have not finished the rebalance yet, I will save any further comments on threads like this till that time.
/me dittos yodaofborg. They are tweaking light ships again. Until said tweaking is done, any discussions like this are IMO pointless at best & counter-productive at worst.
Itani won ctc. This was despite Serco showing up with numerous AGT Proms, orion centurion rev b, centaur aggresso, and every other 'uber' setup that people are constantly whining about.
In fact, I saw quite a few serco cargo get stolen by Marauders and Warthogs. Do we need to nerf those too?
In fact, I saw quite a few serco cargo get stolen by Marauders and Warthogs. Do we need to nerf those too?
Ananzi, they didn't show up until AFTER it was mathematically impossible for them to win. Saying a ship is balanced because the other side won CTC doesn't mean anything, especially since CTC is only one facet of the game. Sure, we might be able to turbo past proms, kill the transports and steal the cargo, but when it comes time to actually fight one...
I still say people are fighting with the wrong tactics. And I still say the AGT needs a looksee.
I still say people are fighting with the wrong tactics. And I still say the AGT needs a looksee.
I think the valk was balanced (or closer to being) when the neut's weighed 200 kg's. NO, DON"T PUT THEM BACK TO THAT WEIGHT! Also before the ibg came out. The thing is that the ibg and rev c weigh too little. For 2 weapon slots they need to weigh 400 kg's more (very small tweak). Even then though the valk won't be equally matched... but it would be closer. Also a way to make the valk "better" is to increase it's cargo hold. I mean it's friggin huge compared to any other fighter ship. Yet it's cargo space is almost the same. What's the incentive to fly it? For the love of god cut the cargo space on the ibg, rev, in HALF. Increase the valks a tad. Maybe 2 more cargo for each class.... MAYBE.
Though maybe not! Maybe I'm completely wrong!
/givemoney Devs 2c
Though maybe not! Maybe I'm completely wrong!
/givemoney Devs 2c