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i forget the hr number now, i think its 3200 or was it 3600, either way the exact bill is availible online.
antz, neither "classical liberalism" nor socalism, will ever be truly realized to their logical extreme. I am what you would call a classical liberal, these days that's generally called a conservative. The problem I have with socialism is it inherently limits freedom, maybe not in theory taken to it's logical extreme, but in any realistic practice. Take a look at ANY communist nation EVER and tell me how tolerant they are of dissenters? Hell, look at their restrictions on freedom's compared to the USA, especially if you were to look at the USA back in the very early 1900's
antz, neither "classical liberalism" nor socalism, will ever be truly realized to their logical extreme. I am what you would call a classical liberal, these days that's generally called a conservative. The problem I have with socialism is it inherently limits freedom, maybe not in theory taken to it's logical extreme, but in any realistic practice. Take a look at ANY communist nation EVER and tell me how tolerant they are of dissenters? Hell, look at their restrictions on freedom's compared to the USA, especially if you were to look at the USA back in the very early 1900's
LNH, I would not make a claim as strong as "never", but it is indeed highly unlikely to ever happen. I absolutely agree that totalitarian systems are terrible places to live in, and every attempt (to date) at a communist state has invariably ended up with just such a system.
You people do have an interesting definition of "conservative" though... here some of their main agendas (besides the usual gay/foreigner/non-christian-bashing) include a policy to reduce the number of unemployed by forcing the unemployed to work almost for free, instead giving state money that would otherwise go to them to the company they were made to work for. They are also in favour of socialised healthcare, and want to reform prisons to remove punishment, instead focusing on rehabilitation.
Of course now it's silly season, so they have also been pushing out a lot of policies they only feel half-hearted about, e.g. improve stability of families by abolishing divorce upon demand, instead requiring married couples to seek state approval to divorce first.
My MP, who is Conservative, also feels that I am not being watched enough, and wants to locally invest in many more cameras to place around the area to ensure I don't do anything he would not approve of.
So, when you describe yourself as "conservative" I involuntarily associate you as someone agreeing with all of the above :-)
You people do have an interesting definition of "conservative" though... here some of their main agendas (besides the usual gay/foreigner/non-christian-bashing) include a policy to reduce the number of unemployed by forcing the unemployed to work almost for free, instead giving state money that would otherwise go to them to the company they were made to work for. They are also in favour of socialised healthcare, and want to reform prisons to remove punishment, instead focusing on rehabilitation.
Of course now it's silly season, so they have also been pushing out a lot of policies they only feel half-hearted about, e.g. improve stability of families by abolishing divorce upon demand, instead requiring married couples to seek state approval to divorce first.
My MP, who is Conservative, also feels that I am not being watched enough, and wants to locally invest in many more cameras to place around the area to ensure I don't do anything he would not approve of.
So, when you describe yourself as "conservative" I involuntarily associate you as someone agreeing with all of the above :-)
so I may, if I so choose, as someone of above average mental ability and health, use my surplus of wealth to close that gap . . . to force others to be their brothers' keepers, however, would be barbaric and immoral.
Fixed that ignorant statement of yours.
Fixed that ignorant statement of yours.
It's not like that, Snax. It's a three option proposal: Buy your own private health insurance, buy the government option health insurance or pay a fine of approximately $1500 a year for being uninsured.
So, really, my problem is with being punished by the general mass of idiots trying to "help me" because I don't want general health insurance. Because I take care of myself and decide not to invest in the Ponzi scheme that is the healthcare industry unless I actually need it, when I'll use my own savings to take care of myself.
You know who else has that mentality? Bible thumpers trying to "save my eternal soul".
So, really, my problem is with being punished by the general mass of idiots trying to "help me" because I don't want general health insurance. Because I take care of myself and decide not to invest in the Ponzi scheme that is the healthcare industry unless I actually need it, when I'll use my own savings to take care of myself.
You know who else has that mentality? Bible thumpers trying to "save my eternal soul".
Antz, you need to realize that Conservative, a party in the UK, has absolutly no relation to conservative, a general political leaning on a given issue in the US . . . aside from the increasing and annoying tendancy of US conservatives to be all about the 'domestic security via constant monitoring and militarized policing' thing.
Moldy: we're more or less not mentioning that there're going to be penalites/legislated competitive disadvantages for private insurance, too. It's a bit tricky to compete in an arena where one option gets to vote itself its customers' money and regulate its competition by fiat.
Moldy: we're more or less not mentioning that there're going to be penalites/legislated competitive disadvantages for private insurance, too. It's a bit tricky to compete in an arena where one option gets to vote itself its customers' money and regulate its competition by fiat.
It's a three option proposal: Buy your own private health insurance, buy the government option health insurance or pay a fine of approximately $1500 a year for being uninsured.
Sucks to be you guys. On a side note, does anyone have a link to a concise, neutral source for the main points of Obama's plan? Something without any political slant or propaganda...
Sucks to be you guys. On a side note, does anyone have a link to a concise, neutral source for the main points of Obama's plan? Something without any political slant or propaganda...
I typed a long, eloquent reply, then Firefox accidentally deleted it. So here's the gist;
Antz:
I'm a US Conservative. I have no problem with gay marriage, don't have (edit: a problem with) foreigners (but think they should have to immigrate legally), and my best friend is an atheist. So, there goes the stereotype.
Anyways, most Conservatives (not those in elected offices) think the minimum wage should be local cost-of-living plus a certain amount of discretionary money. The only people who say, "let's give the money to corporations!" are those who "represented" us for 8 years in the White House. Bush almost created an Oligarchy, with big business in the pockets of the US government. Also, I am against socialized healthcare, am for punishment, and think if you screw up, it's your own damned fault. Not being inflammatory, I just want to let you know, the stereotype of a Conservative generally applies to those in Washington, not the average (informed) citizen.
And also, to Snax_28, I'll be damned if you can find a neutral source anywhere, other than reading the bill. My suggestion is this; read the view of both sides, and then come to your own conclusion. I'd be willing to give you the fiscally conservative viewpoint, and I'm sure someone else would be able to provide you with the progressive position. I don't rightly care which way people lean, as long as they're making an informed decision.
<edit> Damn, this was a long post, seeing as how it's 2am lol </edit>
<edit2> Also, I'm a Conservative Libertarian, which is different from a Conservative Democrat, also different from a Conservative Republican, and, yeah. You get the idea. Used to be a CR, until the party screwed us over. And as Lecter said, a UK Conservative is noticeably different than a US Conservative.</edit2>
Antz:
I'm a US Conservative. I have no problem with gay marriage, don't have (edit: a problem with) foreigners (but think they should have to immigrate legally), and my best friend is an atheist. So, there goes the stereotype.
Anyways, most Conservatives (not those in elected offices) think the minimum wage should be local cost-of-living plus a certain amount of discretionary money. The only people who say, "let's give the money to corporations!" are those who "represented" us for 8 years in the White House. Bush almost created an Oligarchy, with big business in the pockets of the US government. Also, I am against socialized healthcare, am for punishment, and think if you screw up, it's your own damned fault. Not being inflammatory, I just want to let you know, the stereotype of a Conservative generally applies to those in Washington, not the average (informed) citizen.
And also, to Snax_28, I'll be damned if you can find a neutral source anywhere, other than reading the bill. My suggestion is this; read the view of both sides, and then come to your own conclusion. I'd be willing to give you the fiscally conservative viewpoint, and I'm sure someone else would be able to provide you with the progressive position. I don't rightly care which way people lean, as long as they're making an informed decision.
<edit> Damn, this was a long post, seeing as how it's 2am lol </edit>
<edit2> Also, I'm a Conservative Libertarian, which is different from a Conservative Democrat, also different from a Conservative Republican, and, yeah. You get the idea. Used to be a CR, until the party screwed us over. And as Lecter said, a UK Conservative is noticeably different than a US Conservative.</edit2>
Dr. Lecter: Aye, socialism without free association is like sex without consent.
Dr. Lecter, skelbley08: Yes, the UK government to be and you people differ significantly in your view of the world.
Dr. Lecter, skelbley08: Yes, the UK government to be and you people differ significantly in your view of the world.
You PEOPLE with your IDEAS and WORDS and VIEWPOINTS. You SICKEN me, you PEOPLE!
Sorry, it just irritates me :P And cultures are different, even ones as similar as the UK and the US. Not to mention the fact that the term "conservative" in this country has been skewed to mean "anyone not in favor of progress and supporting our poor brothers and sisters who clearly need our help and direction". And I only injected a little sarcasm in that statement.
Sorry, it just irritates me :P And cultures are different, even ones as similar as the UK and the US. Not to mention the fact that the term "conservative" in this country has been skewed to mean "anyone not in favor of progress and supporting our poor brothers and sisters who clearly need our help and direction". And I only injected a little sarcasm in that statement.
most Conservatives (not those in elected offices) think the minimum wage should be local cost-of-living plus a certain amount of discretionary money
Um, actually, no. A good number of (legally and historically educated) conservatives believe the minimum wage (at least any federal minimum wage laws applicable outside of the federal government, i.e., to all workers nationally) should be abolished as an unconstitutional restraint on the freedom of contract. Viva Lochner!
Moreover, I find it cute that the same people who are against a national concealed carry system, because "states should be allowed to decide for themselves how to best tailor 2nd Amendment rights for their citizens," are the same asswipes who scream until they're red in the face if you make a similar argument against national uniformity in anti-discrimination or minimum wage laws. Admittedly, the former is in the bill of rights, while the latter two are allegedly within the federal government's sphere of power on the basis of a very, very broad reading of the commerce clause...but if anything, that undercuts their position more. Viva federalism!
Um, actually, no. A good number of (legally and historically educated) conservatives believe the minimum wage (at least any federal minimum wage laws applicable outside of the federal government, i.e., to all workers nationally) should be abolished as an unconstitutional restraint on the freedom of contract. Viva Lochner!
Moreover, I find it cute that the same people who are against a national concealed carry system, because "states should be allowed to decide for themselves how to best tailor 2nd Amendment rights for their citizens," are the same asswipes who scream until they're red in the face if you make a similar argument against national uniformity in anti-discrimination or minimum wage laws. Admittedly, the former is in the bill of rights, while the latter two are allegedly within the federal government's sphere of power on the basis of a very, very broad reading of the commerce clause...but if anything, that undercuts their position more. Viva federalism!
My suggestion is this; read the view of both sides, and then come to your own conclusion.
I'm not looking for opinion. I'm looking for the main talking points. I started off on what appeared to be a government portal for information pertaining to the bill itself, but it was wrapped in a fair bit of fluff and rhetoric.
I have no problem with gay marriage, don't have foreigners..., and my best friend is an atheist.
Really? Here in Canada the ruling Conservative party just enacted a law allowing each household to have up to three foreigners. It's really quite convenient, especially considering that most multicultural families have at least one, and the more traditional families need a couple foreigners for day to day chores. Personally I went down to the store and picked up an American expat accountant for next to nothing (that whole mess down there really dropped their value). He's great; slim-fit model so he fits in the closet right next to my golf clubs.
I'm not looking for opinion. I'm looking for the main talking points. I started off on what appeared to be a government portal for information pertaining to the bill itself, but it was wrapped in a fair bit of fluff and rhetoric.
I have no problem with gay marriage, don't have foreigners..., and my best friend is an atheist.
Really? Here in Canada the ruling Conservative party just enacted a law allowing each household to have up to three foreigners. It's really quite convenient, especially considering that most multicultural families have at least one, and the more traditional families need a couple foreigners for day to day chores. Personally I went down to the store and picked up an American expat accountant for next to nothing (that whole mess down there really dropped their value). He's great; slim-fit model so he fits in the closet right next to my golf clubs.
Gav, while not the easiest site to navigate (and arguably not entirely bias free), factcheck.org is pretty well recognized as what you're looking for. But if you want "the bill" or "the plan" w/r/t health care ... you're shit outta luck. There's not an officially recognized working draft or even drafts. It's just a bunch of fragmented, narrowly targeted proposals, some written and many not, at this point. Keeping track of where even the Obama administration or the House/Senate majority stands at a given moment is pretty impossible.
On a lighter (in the loafers) note, I imagine that a closeted male is just the sort of personal servant you'd desire, so to speak. Good on you for getting such a fine specimen.
On a lighter (in the loafers) note, I imagine that a closeted male is just the sort of personal servant you'd desire, so to speak. Good on you for getting such a fine specimen.
I beat him with my hybrid when he's naughty.
edit: Thanks for the link. I had forgotten about that nutcase Shona Holmes.
edit: Thanks for the link. I had forgotten about that nutcase Shona Holmes.
Snax_28; Yeah, I forgot to put the "a problem with" part in there. Thanks for drawing my attention to it :-p
This just in: U.S. Democrats still trying to figure out what the hell they want with the health care bill. Their attitude is "Just vote for it and we'll figure out the details later."
WTF
Gav I'm coming to live with you and your free healthcare. Make room in your closet, your other foreigner will have to go live in the garage.
WTF
Gav I'm coming to live with you and your free healthcare. Make room in your closet, your other foreigner will have to go live in the garage.
Leber! It's un-American to dissent from the party line!
UN-AMERICAN!!!
UN-AMERICAN!!!
Soon you will all recognise that you were better off being a colony and ask for our benevolent monarchy to take you back under its wing! :-D
Just vote for it and we'll figure out the details later.
That attitude isn't limited to the health care bill. In fact, I can't think of any bills proposed to Congress recently without that attitude, with the possible exception of Ron Paul's 'Audit the Fed' bill.
That attitude isn't limited to the health care bill. In fact, I can't think of any bills proposed to Congress recently without that attitude, with the possible exception of Ron Paul's 'Audit the Fed' bill.
That's the problem with democracies when they get too large; bureaucracy kicks in and no one even knows what they're fighting for/against, simply that they're arguing for the party line/against their enemies.