chaos, i must admire your utter absence of logic and ignorance of world affairs. i admire it because somewhere, in the states, there's a damn good marketing organization that's able to keep a veil up and project such a rosey picture of the situation.

i wish i could see those perty images you believe in. because from our side of the curtain, it's a lot uglier than that.

I'm going to try to stay out of this thread (doubt I'll succeed) because this clash of ideology won't convert anyone on either side, but I'll just say this to you, upper case. I know the U.S. isn't perfect, and never will be (in fact, we're headed down the path to socialism, with liberals getting crazier every year and conservatives too afraid to offend anyone to stand up for themselves, just look at congress!). I'd still rather be here, because as negative a picture of my country as the media tries to paint (that's the real marketing scam going on), and though more and more people believe that we should be ashamed of our success and power, this is still a great nation.

I'd rather live here and be called a racist simply because I'm a Republican and a Mormon than live in Saddam's Iraq and not be allowed to practice Christianity and be afraid of suicide bombers and being gassed by Saddam. I'd rather live here and be blamed than Africa, where the environmentalist movement (the new home for communists) indirectly cause countless malaria deaths by boycotting crops grown with DDT.

I could go on, and this is already really tacky, but I'm optimistic about our country and the world, and I feel comfortable as the world's superpower. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke) We did nothing in the 1930s, and were attacked unprovoked at Pearl Harbor. We did nothing when the World Trade Center was attacked by Al Qaeda in 1993, and when they attacked the U.S.S. Cole in 2000, so they attacked us again (same damn building!) in 2001. If we wait long enough, and don't offend anyone, far from disarming themselves, we'll see nukes detonated in the U.S. (and in the U.K., and all our allies as well. Spain showed that if they just attack more, they can affect the policies of their enemies.).

Our world is governed by the aggressive use of force, and if we're afraid to wield that force, we deserve to be wiped off the map by countries less tolerant than us.

You're beautiful more beautiful than me
You're honorable more honorable than me
Loyal to the Bank of America

It's a sign of the times
It's a sign of the times

You're sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen
Sharpening stones, walking on coals,
To improve your business acumen

Vested interest united ties, landed gentry rationalize
Look who bought the myth, by jingo, buy America

It's a sign of the times
It's a sign of the times

You're sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen
Sharpening stones, walking on coals,
To improve your business acumen

Enemy sighted, enemy met, I'm addressing the realpolitik
Look who bought the myth, by jingo, buy America

"Let us not assassinate this man further Senator,
You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir?
At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"

We're sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen
Sharpening stones, walking on coals,
To improve your business acumen

Enemy sighted, enemy met, I'm addressing the realpolitik
You've seen start and you've seen quit
(I'm addressing the table of content)
I always thought of you as quick
Exhuming McCarthy
(Meet me at the book burning)
Exhuming McCarthy
(Meet me at the book burning)
Exhuming McCarthy
(Meet me at the book burning)
Exhuming McCarthy
(Meet me at the book burning)

Exhuming McCarthy, copyright by R.E.M.

it's hard to talk politics and not get emotional at times. but what I'm referring to are statements like this:

because we're not trying to conquer or kill the rest of the world [...] If we were, the middle east would be a sea of glass right now.

the only reason that part of the world is not giving the moon a place to look itself at, is because you couldn't go get the oil where the deserts shine of florescent green geiger teaser. the way the current us administration (and i dont blame residents) is conquering and killing the erst of the world, is by erosion of their societies through various means, be them economical or guerilla funding.

statements like

Bush did not create terrorists

are incredebly short-sighted given bush's clan (nwo meat grinder including papa bush) actually funded and trained al-qaida. for the rusky fights first, others thereafter. the '96 wtc attack was a result of a failed negotiation for the running of a pipeline through afghanistan.

as for nazi nukes, just for the record (and because i've seen a recent report on that), hitler was totally uninterested by them as he didn't understand the potential of nukes. he only funded experimental physics crackpots to get them off his back but said funding was nowhere near sufficient to produce anything viable. they had some heavy water, but not enough to be used in a plant that would produce the material they needed. said plant was a hollow mountain cave with labrat equipment. the us was decades in advance on that. said report was about some nordic country (forgot wich... swiss? austria?) famed spy attack on the convoy of the heavy water. a barge transporting them had been sabotaged and sunk. turns out it only contained marginal amounts of heavy water and that it wasn't pure enough to be useable. was quite an interesting report.

on a related note, this might prove to be an interesting documentary:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/041207D.shtml

to air on pbs on the 25th.

the only reason that part of the world is not giving the moon a place to look itself at, is because you couldn't go get the oil where the deserts shine of florescent green geiger teaser.

True. And one day, not so many decades in the future, that will cease to be such a concern of ours.

And we will not have forgotten that part of the world's rich deserving of a healthy glow.

I enjoy the fact that I live in the United States, that we have nukes, and that we bully other nations into not pursuing their own WMD programs.

I think that gives me a rather large net security benefit.
Unlike say, South Koreans or Kuwatis, I have absolutely NO fear whatsoever of another country invading and taking my stuff.

International politics isn't about being nice, it's about benefiting your nation (usually) at the expense of others. If in the long term it will keep me and my kids safer if we can bully Iran into not producing WMD's, then good.

yeah. that's pretty much how hitler sold the war to germans.

that got them really cuddled up and cosy. for a while.

It makes no difference what people think.

Truth is truth, and it can never change.

My neighbor's opinions stink.

They think mine are strange.

But as long as they don't bother me.

I think I'll let em be.

If they decide my blood should run,

Then they shall be laid in the mud.

LeberMac said:
I think that gives me a rather large net security benefit.
Unlike say, South Koreans or Kuwatis, I have absolutely NO fear whatsoever of another country invading and taking my stuff.

So in short, South Korea (and a whole slew of other countries in the south-west pacific, Japan among them) should start making nuclear weapons to dissuade North Korea?

It'll happen eventually, they might as well start now.

Wishful thinking and pretty treaties printed on expensive paper are no match for a well-armed neighbor with a crazy streak. Like it or not, Might Makes Right™. At least, until we've all become so enlightened as to swear off of war as a tool to get what we want.

haha, enlightened... every "enlightened" society in the history of the world has used war. Not going away anytime soon.

Yeah, kinda my point, moldy. Oh well. Let the race begin: "Cry Havoc! And let slip the dogs of war."

The trick is, bully enough people, and eventually you'll get someone who fights back, and that kind of warfare has the potential to affect innocents around the world in a detrimental way. It's a neat little temporary solution, and all's fair in love and war, but in the long term it would seem beneficial to the longetivity of the human race if the bullies spent their time and resources heading in a direction towards total world-wide disarmament.

It's true that our posession of "WMD" gives the United States a great deal of power, and that power furthermore translates to authority which is used to keep the weapons out of the hands of the meek. However, that very posession also gives other nations a reason to have their own, while there are other ways to keep nukes out of the hands of our enemies. The question is whether the U.S. has the power to protect itself without nukes.

We're jousting with the world, and nobody has a shield. The only defense is in striking quicker, and more brutally than our opponents. The moment that changes, the day a solid defense against ICBM's is developed, I see no reason why a nation as strong as the United States of America should rely on such cowardly weapons as Chaos Swarm Avalons.

I see no reason why a nation as strong as the United States of America should rely on such cowardly weapons as Chaos Swarm Avalons.

The never ending international power struggle isn't a duel, you moron.

No, but Lecter, he has a point.. somewhat..

Which is why both Bush and Reagan tried to build a missile shield.

I know we had a test of it under Bush, and have heard very little since then.

What I find completely asinine is, many people don't -want- us to have a missile defense system..

The 'dumb'ocrats have been railing against anti-ICBM technology since Reagan first proposed Star Wars in the 80s.

I think it's rather unlikely that terrorists will attack the US using ICBM's, there being a great deal of know-how and hardware required for it to work (and not bomb your own country instead), plus it's difficult to set up a launch site that isn't easily detected.

Not to mention that a missile defence screen is prohibitively expensive to maintain...

Yeah, instead of a "Star-Wars" missile defense program, we should use the money to:
1. Build a goddamn FENCE on our borders.
2. Install NBC detectors on said fence and on coastlines. Every 50 yards or whatever, have a little solar-powered post with all the detectors and 360 degree cameras - IR/UV/Visible. Put the same sniffer/scanner/detectors in airports and "water" ports as well to scan luggage, cargo, and passengers.
3. Hire local border patrol agents who live near the area which they patrol and assign them responsibility for X yards of wall or coastline. Provide social and financial incentives for the poor schmucks who will work in northern Montana or (worse) along northern Alaskan coastline.
4. Fingerprint every foreign national who comes into the USA and take their photo at the airport/crossing/train station/port. Check all fingerprints and photos against a foreign national ID database. Cross-reference with INTERPOL and other appropriate law enforcement agencies.
5. Hire as many extra agents as needed (and hire trainers to train the extra agents) in order to make #4 work.

There. Those 5 things will make us immeasurably safer than any missile-defense shield. And that'll probably cost less, as well.

For instance.

And, of course, propagate the building of a public transport system not relying on planes...

trains or else are not immune to sabotage. and it would be a bitch to bridge the americas with japan.