You could run for 'poster of most edited post of the year', chillum :P

On suicide: No comment. Topic too difficult.

On /vote mute yourself: I don't remember if I ever voted, save for testing purposes... are there records of this?

it amounts to saying to God, "thanks, but no thanks, you gave me this life, but I don't want it anymore."

Or maybe it's more like saying to God, "thanks, but no thanks. You gave me this defective product... yeah, doesn't quite work like the floor model you showed me. Remember, the Adam Mk IV? The one with the BRAIN THAT WORKS PROPERLY!!!! WHERE'S THAT $25 DOLLAR WARRANTY YOU SOLD ME?!! Oh what? Oh I see, it doesn't cover mental illness. Riiight. Ok, tell you what. See that sign across the street? The one with the big old ALAH written across the front door?!?! Yeah, just lost a customer A**HOLE!!!!! Oh, you own that store to? Fine, Buddah it is. Suck it, I'm never comin here again, AND I'M TELLING ALL MY FRIENDS!!!!"

The Buddha. It's a title more than a name, and your spelling was wrong too :P

And He owns that store too. That's the point... there's no place to run to. So running is futile. Face what you are given, play it through to the (bitter) end, and play it as well as you are able. That is the only way to avoid the futility. (Cause remember... NO-ONE gets out alive.) We ALL lose... so if we're all losers what are you worried about?

However, I'm not in constant mind-numbing pain/terror. So, if in fact, death is like switching off a light, then perhaps suicide serves a purpose. A self-serving, self-absorbed, moronically selfish purpose... but a purpose.

But death is NOT switching off a light... there's a good song called Death is Not the End, (by the Pogues or Nick Cave maybe... though probably they just did a "cover") you should listen to it. (or google the lyrics at least)

Also, try to stop blaming your father (mother?) for your suffering. He didn't do it to you, really. You did it to yourself. You do it to yourself. And it will go on until you stop doing it. And, killing yourself is just adding injury to insult. On top of that... you're not hurting him much by your suicide... he knows it's just a child throwing a tantrum.

EDIT: All instances of "you" are of the generic variety.... though of course I am specifically responding to Snax_28.

I could go on with this all year... for instance another example of the futility of suicide is: Wherever you go there you are... Wherever you go... there YOU are... can't run from yourself. (And most traditions say you can't destroy yourself either.) But... I'll have to pick it up again in 2 weeks maybe... and really Snax_28, I don't think I can change your mind on this. I'll do my best though, if you are still interested when I return.

EDIT: And believe me, I have put A LOT of thought into this... I've been very very depressed for extended periods of my life, to the point where, the first thought I'd have on awakening and the last thought before I slept was putting a gun to my head. But I always recognized the futility... that, and simple fear, were all that kept the thought from being realized. (You could also perhaps say I was just too depressed to kill myself.)
;)

"(You could also perhaps say I was just too depressed to kill myself.)"

I worked in psychiatry for many years and I believe that the above is very common among those who are severely depressed. In fact, I think that all the hoopla about antidepressant medication causing people to commit suicide is ignorant. I suspect that the medication permits enough motivation to actually follow-through on an action that has been considered over time. Medication alone is not a sufficient treatment.

Whistler, since you worked in psychiatry, I'm curious about something. I heard from a Psychology professor I had that all the studies taken together on I forget which major antidepressant showed that the placebo was slightly, almost immeasurably more effective. I've always had a problem with the concept that people are not responsible for their behavior, and can be cured with a pill, and I've always thought that happiness is an attitude that you can choose. That may sound cliché, but there are a lot of people who give up on life when others choose to be optimistic under far worse circumstances.

Also, any disease, mental or otherwise, is something to be conquered, not surrendered to, which is what suicide amounts to.

Without knowing what antidepressant your instructor was referring to, it's hard to refute the statement as completely as I'd like to. Antidepressants used currently must have proven efficacy for a specific symptom or malady before they are approved for that use. I can assure you that if such a situation did occur, psychiatrists wouldn't waste their time prescribing the medication and insurance companies would be lining up to sue for fraud. I will add that not everyone responds to every medication - particularly with psychiatric medications.

I agree that, under normal conditions, people choose their own attitudes, behaviors, and perspectives. However sometimes there is an anomoly with the chemistry or structure of the brain that regulates mood. Some of the neurotransmitters and regions have already been identified and can be manipulated with drugs or electrical stimulation. A mood disorder can seriously impact one's thinking and outlook. It's easy to look at a depressed person and think that perhaps they just need to get it together, but once you've spent a few days with somebody in the manic (opposite of depressed) phase of their illness, you realize how powerful the biochemical aspects of mood are.

I agree that surrender should not be an option, but I also recognize that somebody experiencing prolonged major depression may not be able to recognize viable options. They may benefit from medication to handle the biochemical issue, and therapy to work on their behavior/attitude/perspective/coping skills.

Thanks for the input, Whistler.

I don't remember which one, but Zoloft comes to mind. Might be another one, I can't remember. I am, however, a firm believer in the placebo effect, and I think it's stronger than any psychowhateveritscalled drug. I remember reading a speech made by [url=www.michaelcrichton.com]Michael Crichton[/url] where he tells about one of his friends who was a doctor. This friend had a patient who thought some shaman or something had put a curse on him, and believed so strongly that he was dying, that he was dying, despite any treatment. Finally the doctor told the guy he'd studied the shaman's magic, and had found a ritual to reverse the curse, and with some friends performed some bogus ritual, and the guy immediately started to recover. I know this is an extreme example, but I believe that therapy, or at least an attitude change, is almost always more effective than medication.

The real problem is that people use medication as an excuse for their behavior. I hate when someone says, "oh, she didn't take her meds today." That's a bad excuse. The very worst is when parents use drugs as a babysitter. How did we ever make it through 6000 years or however long we've been around, if there was never until now a treatment for the ADD that afflicts practically every kid these days? Of course drugs will help; if you tranquilize your kid, he won't act up. It only treats the symptom, though, when usually the problem is a lack of discipline.

This is true I think for depression, too, though not to the same degree. You mentioned that medication alone is never enough, and I completely agree. People will retreat to the medicine (which to me is another way to surrender), and say the problem is solved. To me, medication for these things serves the same purpose that welfare should: The whole point is to not need it anymore. If you're so depressed you are not interpreting your life as you should, and if medication can make you happier, then that's a good thing. Take the medicine, and see that things aren't so bad. Then, the crucial step is to fully internalize that perception of your world, so that it's an attitude, and not the effect of a drug.

Of course, Whistler, I don't want to discount your experience since you've worked in this field, and I've just known several people who blame every one of their kids' actions on ADD and refuse to discipline them, and several people who are depressed because of their attitude. I also know someone who can get headaches on demand, and will blame the current headache on whatever is handy, "I shouldn't have eaten so late," "I should have eaten something," "It's that smell," whatever. My unprofessional opinion is that it is a combination of seasonal allergies and placebo effect, because these headaches can be turned on and off like a light switch.

[/rant]

Hmmm, well first off, let me state that I'm not actually arguing "for" any side of an argument pertaining to suicide. More I'm railing against people who do not view mental illness as a serious illness that often results in suicide due to one's lack of perspective, caused, as Whistler pointed out, by a very real illness affecting the brain's functionality. I was also basically just arguing over the semantics of the term "futile".

:)

My most recent post was a drunken attempt at satirization of PC's christian take on things, which, being a solid mix of agnostic/atheist, makes me giggle when I hear. No disrespect PC.

As far as medicating goes, I'll leave that discussion to the professionals. I've my own opinions derived from watching my mother and my sister battle with MD and the medications prescribed over the years, but it's a little personal and might lead me to take this thread to seriously!

Which is not the way to go I say!

Zoloft does work quite well for some people - no question in my mind. It also does nothing at all for others, and makes still others ill. This is why we have several different types of antidepressants on the market. Zoloft's efficacy for mood disorders, OCD, anxiety and anxiety-like disorders is well studied and established. There are a few off-label uses still being studied. I think Zoloft gets a bad rap because it can be used for so many different things - which is unusual. It effects serotonin, a neurotransmitter that is involved in a great many functions, so it's not really the fault of the drug, is it?

The placebo effect does work for some people in some situations - though usually not better than medication for those who have a scientific perspective on illness. Crichton's story involves a person with a whole different belief system involving health and spirituality than our own. The subject's illness may have been a somatic illness from the stress over his belief that he'd been cursed, and therefore it could be cured when the stressor was eased. I've also personally seen this fail miserably when a boy from the Mien people of Asia was not medicated for his severe psychosis, but instead a series of chickens were sacraficed (he was temporarily released to go home for this) to ward off the spirits believed to be making him ill. Whether the "dabs" left him or not, the psychotic symptoms remain with him. Because he was not treated early, his syptoms have gotten much worse and he won't ever be returning to his previous level of function. I still see him around and he still seems to know me, but he's pretty much incoherent now. It's a shame - he was a really cool kid.

Medication can help lead the horse to water, so to speak. It can get a person motivated enough to wake up, get dressed, and start to work on their issues. Often though, one has to work on the issues. At minimum one has to learn some non-pharmaceutical coping skills to help themselves out (exercise vigorously, get a hobby, get on a schedule, etc.).

ADD medication was rampant a few years ago, though not so bad now. Saying it inflicts "practically every kid" is overstating quite a bit. There are definately fads in diagnosing. One could argue that our life and habitat are different than 6000 years ago - maybe there's more ADD now? Maybe we just labeled them "severly emotionally disturbed" and didn't medicate them and send them to mainstream schools. Maybe 6000 years ago ADD kids just didn't last very long. I've seen some shockingly bad parenting skills, but I've also seen good parents who have done it all and still had an out-of-control kid and a nightmare life.

If somebody has a problem with psychosis, rather than a pure mood disorder, failure to take medication one day could be a legitimate concern. It's inexcuseable (IMO) if the subject made a lucid decision to stop taking the medication (which does happen fairly often), but understandable (again, IMO) if the subject's psychosis is uncontrolled and clouding their judgement (which also happens often). Medications for a mood disorder are usually taken for 4-6 weeks before seeing any beneficial effects and tend to continue to have a beneficial effect even if you miss a dose here and there (though this should be avoided) due to maintaining a constant level of medication over time.

I worked for a few years in a locked adolescent psych ward with kids 12-18, and also for a few years in an outpatient setting with young adults, adults, and older adults. I can't claim to have seen it all, but I've see a lot.

Kurt did all of us with functional ears a favor by eating that shotgun.

Thanks for that, Dr. Lecter. That was a helpful productive statement, and we are now all more complete human beings for having heard that. Of course, your tastes, being so infinitely refined, are the tastes in music that all of us should follow unquestioningly.

My ears, of course, are not functional, which is why I enjoy Nirvana's music so much. I have the sign language version of Nevermind, which is really amazing, but it's hard to get a sign language CD player. I couldn't even find one on eBay. Eventually I had to rig a Karaoke machine to an old fashioned TV with a VCR and and a disgronifier, and I have to carefully tune the disgronifier and play the CD and a cassette for learning sign language at the same time, but the sign language tape I have to play backwards, and start it in the middle. That way, Kurt Cobain's lyrics come in loud and clear in sign language. Of course, listening that way has made me blind, and the braille version of the CD has dissolved my fingers.

Do not feed troll.

Hehe, again... PC you make me giggle. This time though, in a less.....disputatious manner....

So I should have said "In my opinion..." Most people, when reading a comment on the arts, an inherently subjective topic, would not need that expressed for them. I will try, PC, to keep your "special needs" in mind for future posts.

In other related matters, this may just be the coolest song ever on the topic at hand.

Animals don't have a choice.
If they're not happy with their place in the world... too bad.
They have to live the life they've been given.
Humans, on the other hand, don't have to.
We have a choice.
If you don't like your place in the world, you can get off anytime you want.

Suicide. That's right.
You don't like the way your life's going,
you don't like the way you are in the world,
anything around you, you can check out anytime you like.
Animals aren't allowed that thought
and believe me, if they were, they would use it.

There'd be a lot of dogs and cats, owned by assholes
that live in high-rises, diving out the windows.
Zebras... if they even had remotely that thought
would take a look at themselves and go, "What the FUCK!"
Black and white in a green and brown world... well this blows.
I'm just gonna jump in the river....
I don't have a thumb to work a gun or hold a knife
or even open a jar of pills.
I'm just gonna dive into the next lion's mouth.
Why even bother?"
Now, monkeys have the opposable thumb
so they could kinda do it the exact same way we do.

Now, there's a bunch of people that say,
"Oh, it's against the law".
Well, it's only against the law if you do a crappy job and get caught.
Other people say, "Oh, we should save them".
Yeah, well you know what?
Not everybody wants to be saved.
Not everybody should be saved.
And who are we to force our will upon them?
I mean, isn't that one of the joys about being a human?
Freedom of choice?

Now, it's not all bad.
Now, I'm not saying "Kill yourself".
But if you're gonna be an idiot and do it anyway,
it's no sweat off of my back.
There's a lot of good that could come from it.
A little bit of bad thrown in.

Some of the things:
A job will open...
An apartment will become available...
There'll be more air for me...
They say there's two girls for every guy - if you're a man, there'll be four chicks for me...
There'll be more Ketel One vodka for me...
There'll be one less idiot in line at the bank who gets up to the window without their Fucking slips filled out...
I won't ever have to go to the store to buy my favorite Salt & Vinegar Chips
and have the clerk point at you and say, "They bought the last bag"....
You won't help change the McDonald's sign to a Hundred Billion Served...
You'll never get AIDS...
You won't have to worry about calories ever...
No more, "Hey, does this make me look fat?"...
There'll be one less polluting human...
You won't have to recycle... There'll be one less car on the road...
There'll be more Ring Dings for me...
Fifty or so chickens' lives will be spared...
Your fingers won't ever get red from eating pistachios...
You won't be forced to visit your Grandparents on Sundays anymore...
No more church...
You'll be saying, "Hey, World, Kiss My Ass!"...

No more wet dreams about Supermodels...
No more Barry Manilow... Not for a few years anyway...
Wondering "Am I a loser?" will be a thing of the past...
Say good-bye to crappy Xmas presents from Aunts and Uncles...
You won't have to suffer through a Motley Crue reunion...
Fuck flossing and brushing...
You'll never lose sleep over a pregnancy scare...
Adios, Acne...
Worrying whether you fit in or not won't be on your brain...
See ya later, homework...
You'll never have to sit through another movie brought to you by the creators of South Park...
School's out forever....
No more paying bills...
You won't have to do chores...

You won't be able to run over toads with the lawnmower though...
You'll also miss McDonald's French Fries...
Bugs Bunny...
The amazing electrifying feeling that surges through your body when you kiss someone for the first time...
You won't be able to watch the letterbox director's cut of Jaws...
Candy...
Living above ground...
Pudding crust...
You'll miss the rush of getting your first apartment...
Getting to the point in your life where you can tell your parents
"FUCK OFF! I gotta make my own mistakes, you did"...

You'll miss sex - you'll miss thinking about it, looking for it,
sex by yourself, sex with a partner, sex with multiple partners...
No more summer nights that seem to go on forever... Roller coasters....
Naming your kid the name you always wanted...
Making a difference in the world...
You'll miss the experience and pleasure of Hallucinogenics...
Watching your neighbor's wife change clothes with her blinds open...
A lifetime of masturbating...
Watching your favorite team sweep the series...
Music, you will definitely miss music...

Trying to sneak into your house drunk - three hours past your curfew...
You'll miss the blaze and glory of the 4th of July fireworks...
The taste of Captain Crunch...
If you're a boy, you'll miss the feeling the first time you reach up a girl's shirt...
If you're a girl, the feeling the first time you reach down a boy's pants...
You'll miss your favorite coat...
Waffles with whipped cream and strawberries...
Beating your friends at video games...
You won't be around to see what shape and color the new marshmallow in Lucky Charms will be...

You'll miss the feeling you get when reminiscing about your first love - thirty years after the fact...
The joy of giving and receiving at Christmas...
Skinny dipping...
Getting stoned, reading Green Eggs & Ham, and eating like a horse that got loose in the grain bin...
Flying cars...

Hey, you were born, finish what was started!

My favorite song on the topic is Adam's Song, by Blink 182.

Tom deLonge said:
"The story behind that is Mark read a letter someone sent him as an email, that a kid wrote before he committed suicide to his parents. We kind of got together and wrote this sad, slow song. It came out sadder than we ever thought it would, which is good too. Any song that moves you is good. Some people listen to it and go 'Wow, that's a real bum-out of a song.' But it's one of those things, a story of a kid not being happy in his life, crossed with us being really lonely on tour. At the end of it there's a better way out, there are better things to do than kill yourself."

I'm not the biggest Blink 182 fan in the world (all their music sounds the same), but they write good lyrics, and this song has some of the best.

35 replies and nobody answered the question.

i guess this is what the iraq planning must have been like.

The answer, of course, is 42.

In all seriousness, yes, your vote is counted against you. The client/server does not check to see if the character name in the /vote mute "name" command is on your account, and because of this, does count that vote against you.

Ok this is funny. If you google "Bobby Gaylor", then click on the top link (bobbygaylor.com) it takes you to the same google page. An annoyingly humourous prank, or broken browser? Only you can decide!

Well hell... maybe this should have stayed in bugs... people did continue to respond to the original topic... sort-of.

Good song Lecter... sort-of.

And LOL (but kinda not funny at all, being true and all) Ananzi.