Not being American, I have some trouble with understanding and even acknowledging the opinions/the content displayed in this movie trailer.

I'd be happy if a few people (and then a few more) could voice their thoughts about whether they see that as an actual threat or not? I guess I don't have to say this, but nationality is not an issue here. It's in my interest to get as many non-American opinions on this as native ones.

Personally, I'm inclined to write about 90% of the trailer off to overly strong dramatization of facts, as well as pure paranoia.

I thought at first you were talking about the global warming movie, that's 100% pure serco ale.

This trailer? actually, some is true, there is no law for income tax. That much I know. Also, If nudged in the right directions, this could become a realility, I really, really hope it doesn't though. America is degrading toshiro, something needs to happen. The next president or two will really be deciding what will happen; a good prez, we're ok, a bad one? we're screwed.

Well, the Constitution allows the Federal government to tax its citizens:
Article I, Section. 8, Clause 1:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.

So yeah, it's law. Try not obeying it and see for yourself the "kindler, gentler IRS."

Looks like they spliced together a bunch of images of the WTO protests, where the protesting morons got tasered, shot with non-lethal ammo, and beat up because they were busting into local businesses. Along with some really old 70's and 60's footage of civil rights marches.

National ID card would essentially be a national driver's license, which almost every single American has anyway. Proof of ID is required to enter some businesses (bars), to write checks, to cash checks, etc. I really don't know why the National ID card is such a big deal. For example: How many Americans voluntarily enroll in supermarket discount card programs? Those kinds of cards are FAR more intrusive, and they're not regulated at all, supermarkets can sell that info on you to anyone they feel like! Do you want everyone knowing that you're buying boxes of condoms before your "business trip"? Or that you're purchasing sudafed by the case for your drug habit?

The implantable chip is the next step after I.D. cards. I'm a little wary about that one, if only for the fact that as you move through a crowd, someone could "scan" you discreetly or something. There's no infrastructure in place to track movements of "chipped" people, and you cannot track "chipped" people via satellite.

As far as gun laws, it's the right of every American to own and posssess firearms and weapons - for the express reason that, if necessary, we can overthrow the government if things go to hell with some demagogue leader. Too bad not everyone chooses to excerise their right to keep that metaphorical "Sword of Damocles" over the government's head.

Aaron Russo is a hollywood film producer and Libertarian activist/rabble-rouser, supports legalizing marijuana, wants to repeal the "patriot" act, and advocates immediate withdrawl from Iraq. Essentially he finds hot-button issues on either side of the political spectrum and sensationalizes them in order to sell movies and books to make himself rich. Don't get me wrong, he's not ALL bad, but I'd consider him nothing more than a political opportunist. He's Michael Moore, but not as fat and stupid, essentially.

Momerath would be the best person to ask about this trailer, toshiro. Trust me on THIS one.

"a good prez, we're ok, a bad one? we're screwed."

Yea, too bad we never have good ones running that we can choose from.

Sensational? Opportunistic? Quite possibly.

Unfortunately, its been proven at the box office that North Americans do not go out to watch subtle, objective, well told political documentaries.

And Leebs, I know you're a nice Republican, but the "protesting morons" comment is not only misinformed, but verging on ignorant.

First off, the footage from the WTO protests makes up barely 10 seconds of the trailer.

Second, the "busting into local businesses" was a small group of people, most accounts describe less than 50 people were involved in smashing windows and looting. In fact, most of the mainstream media covering this event claimed that this was what led to the violent actions of the police, when in fact the police had begun to employ these tactics on peaceful protesters hours before the looting happened. What you're saying is the same misguided information that surrounded the Civil Rights march in Ireland, Bloody Sunday, in which a small group of people throwing rocks led the Britsh Army to open fire and slaughter peaceful protesters.

As far as the rest of the issues contained in the trailer, all I'll offer is the following paraphrased quote from someone whom I've forgotten the name:

"Revolutions do not arise from the strength of great leaders, but instead from the actions of bad leaders. If the current leader isn't enough to cause a revolution, then a worse one is going to have to take power."

Personally I, for the most part have enjoyed watching the US rot from within over the past 20 years (longer, but I can't say I personally observed that). The only problem now, is that this sickness is starting to seep into my country.

That has me paranoid.

Gavan, I'm not a "nice" republican, ask me about my "nice" mail to US Senator (D-WI) Feingold sometime.

All I have for sources is my recollection of the news stories on CNN and such that I saw during the Seattle WTO thingy. As I recall, they blocked off a section of Seattle, and the protesters repeatedly tried to storm the barricades. They tried to "get around" the barricades by busting into a couple of businesses and bypassing the police lines, but then the cops got physical in order to stem the human tide of protesters rushing into the "off-limits" zone.

Essentially things degraded and the "peaceful protesters" decided to take advantage of the chaos and do a little looting and vandalism, turning the peaceful protest into essentially the same thing as a "Detroit Pistons Celebration Riot."

I'd like to know whose dumb enough to throw rocks at guys with guns.
I'm sorry, but they had it coming.

Kix, I'm hoping you were being ironic there.

This is highly sensationalized. While I dislike Bush (too bad he was the *best* option at the time), America is definitely not falling into a pit. National IDs are like passports, driver's licenses and state IDs, which most Americans possess. It is a good idea to have these cards required, in my opinion. I was wondering why we didn't have them to begin with.

As for the ID chip, I'll pass. The public opposition to this would mean it might takes years, even generations to implement this. It is unnerving that a competent hacker could track you. Hell, the government could track you, which is bad enough.

In conclusion, the party not in power always makes claims that the party in power is "destroying our freedom and our way of life". This issue is as sensationalized as the Republican view on gay marriage and abortion.

Hmm, moldyman, incidentally, we have pretty similar views on this. This 'National ID' is already a long-time reality here in Switzerland, and it facilitates many things. For one, you don't have to carry your passport wherever you go in order to prove your identity, because sometimes the driver's license doesn't suffice here. Also, it enables you to enter countries that border on Switzerland (of which there're quite a few).

Gavan;

I'd STRONGLY suggest that you not attempt to argue something that happened in my country with me, when you don't even live here. I am NOT a nice Republican. I'm a goddamn DANGEROUS Conservative Libertarian, and I'm a hell of a lot better read on political science and economics in my country than you are.

I happened to be IN Seattle for the beginning of the WTO protests. Whatever you THINK you heard about the police just "opening fire" on "innocent civilians" is pure unwashed dogshit. Those innocent civilians put nine police officers in the hospital in large part BECAUSE the police weren't allowed to use deadly force, even in their own defense. The Seattle police commissioner even refused to allow riot gear and tear gas until the rioters had been going at it for almost three hours. Why? He didn't want to "escalate."

Good people got hurt because "peaceful protesters" were allowed to use violence, but the men and women trying to protect us from them were not. Peaceful my ass. I'm in the military. I'm also stationed 47 miles from where they'll put it if the world ever needs an enema: San Francisco. I've had rocks thrown at my Jeep by your "peaceful protestors" because I have the audacity to have a military sticker on my windshield. I had my car keyed by one of your "peaceful protestors" because I had a "W '04" sticker on it.

Don't delude yourself into thinking that those dirtbags want anything more than their own rotten agenda. They're nearly as violent as Al-Qaeda. They cannot be reasoned with. They cannot be talked to. They can be ignored when they aren't trying to physically hurt you or interfere with your life, but they are NOT peaceful, and they can and will injure you to get their own way.

Don't believe me? That's your prerogative, but at least I've been in San Francisco during protest weekends. At least *I* know what I'm talking about, because these two eyes have seen it.

By the way, if you think MY country is rotting from within, I suggest you start thinking seriously about what is going to happen to YOUR country in the very near future. America is approximately 66% of the world's economy. We buy your raw materials and your goods, and we sell you our technology. We keep you afloat, and you can squirm and deny and pretend it doesn't happen, but that isn't going to change the facts one bit.

Speaking of facts, you are entitled to your own opinion, but you are NOT entitled to your own set of facts. The next time you call someone ignorant, make sure it's not in the same paragraph where you display your own frightful ignorance, okay?

/rant o

~D.
"Nigel the Indecently Dressed"

Tosh:

I'm not being ironic. A rock is a deadly weapon. With the right velocity behind it, it can kill or maim another person. I fully support the right of a police officer to draw his or her weapon and blow the goddamn head off of any meatball that tries to hurt them in any way. You want to throw a rock at a police officer? Then you have crossed the line from "peaceful protester" to "dangerous and potentially lethal criminal," and you deserve the consequences of your actions.

I do not support indiscriminate shooting into a crowd, but I can promise you my last bag of skittles that if you threw a rock at me or tried to hit me with a length of four-by-two, I'd kill you dead with any weapon available, gun, knife, sword, nunchaku, plastic fork, or my freaking teeth. Not because I hate you, but because your right to life and happiness stops abruptly when you try to take those things from me, and I am not going to sit there and get hit in the face with a piece of asphalt just because you can get away with throwing it and then putting your hands in the air and saying, "Neener neener, you can't shoot me, that would be unfair."

If you think that's harsh, the next step is when you find out what I would do to someone if they threw that piece of asphalt at my wife. Those people get to live. Long, lengthy lives that they will spend in a wheelchair praying that stem cell research will let them move their bodies from the neck down again.

~D.
"Nigel the Indecently Dressed"

Klabbath, you know what I like best about arguing with fascists? They make your point for you.

You're either a communist Democrat, a fascist Republican or a flip flopping third party member! Ain't America great!

I'm not debating the fact whether a rock can be deadly or not (although I'd use different means if I were involved in a riot, and yes, I've read up on that). I'm also not defending the people who riot, loot & pillage on anti-WTO demonstrations (it happened in my country, too).

However, when it comes to Northern Ireland or the Banlieue de Paris, now there's an entirely different story. And I can sometimes understand that people throw rocks because they have nothing else at hand and an immense anger at the authorities.

And Klabbath, it's the protesters' fault for throwing stones and rioting, but not that the police were not allowed to use crowd control measures.

Please also consider that most often, it is not the entire mass of demonstrants that comes to a protest with the intent to do harm. Usually, there are radical groups that are well-trained in creating frenzies as well as in riot weaponry assembly and usage, and as a result (group dynamics), most of the people join in. That is not always the case, I agree. But more often than not, it is.

Also, whether one lives in the country where stuff happens or not doesn't really matter anymore nowadays.

"Also, whether one lives in the country where stuff happens or not doesn't really matter anymore nowadays."

I sort of agree with you toshiro. It is possible to see live news from any part of the world almost inatantaiously. But being there first hand to witness whats going on is differnt. Anyone can see it on the news and have an opinion, but Klabbath was an eye witness.

You know what I like best about arguing with the complete ignorant?

They accuse everyone of facism with no factual evidence.

When you get enough FACTS to refute my arguments with COHERENT LOGIC we can pretend that you have made a point. But as far as I'm concerned, since I made valid points (based on fact) and you ignored them to descend to name calling, let's just chalk this one up as a win for me, shall we?

Nice try. Please play again, after you've read an actual newspaper of some kind, okay?

~D.
"Nigel the Indecently Dressed"
"Legin the Naked"

Tosh;

Well, considering the distortions in our OWN media, I strongly doubt that Gavan has the vaguest idea what he's talking about when he's getting his information from sources that aren't even local.

My point is that somehow America has forgotten its most basic premise. For some reason in this country, where a mailed fist carries the same weight as a palsied hand, on a VOTING LEVER, my countrymen have discovered that when they are outvoted (such as the '04 election, or even the '00 election) it's easier to simply throw a temper tantrum (i.e.: protest) than it is to practice representative democracy.

It disgusts me. You want to protest? Do it with a VOTE. Civil disobedience does nothing but alienate your cause.

But it's 0900 and I haven't been to bed yet. we can discuss this another time.

~D.
"Nigel the Indecently Dressed"
"Legin the Naked"

Jes:

I have to clarify. I was IN Seattle. I was not a part of the riots. I don't know that you could call me an eyewitness. I was not physically present, however I have friends and family that were.

~D.

Hey I've got an idea. Why don't YOU try and submit some actual evidence. Far as I'm concerned, my "facts" were actually researched. Your's are completely based on personal opinion and heresay.

You want to protest? Do it with a VOTE. Civil disobedience does nothing but alienate your cause.

Civil disobedience has been the number one reason why political change happens worldwide, not because of your faith in an extremely flawed political system (Democracy) that day by day is proving that it is no better than the failed versions of communism (and in your specific example, is looking more and more like Totalitarianism). Look at South America, they've been trying to affect real change through voting for decades, but every time they have, you assholes send another hit squad down to screw things up. Thank the mighty lord ya'll are pre-occupied chasing guerrillas around the desert this time round.

And as far as evidence that you're a fascist? Like I said, I don't need to. Your providing it for all to see.

PS. You had friends and family that were there eh? I have friends who were in the thick of it. It was a global affair my friend, not just a bunch of soggy Seattle hippys.