Forums » Off-Topic
Klabbath, you missed the point. I am against using riots to protest against a political situation you don't like. However, I can understand why people would choose to do so.
As for democracy: It is obviously one of the best forms of state to date. Gavan, why do you think otherwise? Besides, communism is (obviously) not fit for use in real-life situations, at least not beyond the scope of one generation.
As for democracy: It is obviously one of the best forms of state to date. Gavan, why do you think otherwise? Besides, communism is (obviously) not fit for use in real-life situations, at least not beyond the scope of one generation.
Oh I'm not arguing for Communism. It's a utopian society that in reality inevitably ends up with a totalitarian dictator leading the state (I can think of one or two Democratic nations suffering from the same problem).
As for Democracy failing? Well, in North America it is failing right now. Not necessarily in other parts of the world (South America when the US isn't messing around, parts of Europe, etc.)
Democracy only works if the majority of people are taking an active part in its functions, namely voting. Voter turnout in North America has been hovering around the 60% mark for a long time now (64% in the last Canadian Federal election, 55% in the last US Presidential election). What ends up happening is you have the country being run by a party that the majority of the populace did not vote for. For instance, in Canada, only 30% of the country voted for the party that is in power. 34% voted for another option(s), and the rest were so apathetic that they just didn't bother getting out of their house.
Its not hard to understand how come people are disillusioned with the system: given the lack of real choice (the two party system down there, and the two and a half system we have up here), and the influence of big money corporations and lobbyists. Interestingly enough, our current right wing nutjob is attempting to severely limit the political contributions from big-business (as well as regressivelely opening up debate on issues that the population has already approved, namely gay marraige).
I'm not against democracy by any means, but there needs to be some sweeping changes in order to re-engage the masses, whether that be through wide-spread civil disobedience, laws requiring people to vote (as in Australia), or some other means....
As for Democracy failing? Well, in North America it is failing right now. Not necessarily in other parts of the world (South America when the US isn't messing around, parts of Europe, etc.)
Democracy only works if the majority of people are taking an active part in its functions, namely voting. Voter turnout in North America has been hovering around the 60% mark for a long time now (64% in the last Canadian Federal election, 55% in the last US Presidential election). What ends up happening is you have the country being run by a party that the majority of the populace did not vote for. For instance, in Canada, only 30% of the country voted for the party that is in power. 34% voted for another option(s), and the rest were so apathetic that they just didn't bother getting out of their house.
Its not hard to understand how come people are disillusioned with the system: given the lack of real choice (the two party system down there, and the two and a half system we have up here), and the influence of big money corporations and lobbyists. Interestingly enough, our current right wing nutjob is attempting to severely limit the political contributions from big-business (as well as regressivelely opening up debate on issues that the population has already approved, namely gay marraige).
I'm not against democracy by any means, but there needs to be some sweeping changes in order to re-engage the masses, whether that be through wide-spread civil disobedience, laws requiring people to vote (as in Australia), or some other means....
Heh. Think you hit a nerve on 'ol Nigel there, Gav. However I'm inclined to agree with his viewpoint on the WTO stuff. But that's probably because I'm a fat white republican, only concerned with how rich I can get before I die.
>:P
>:P
Perhaps I did miss your point, Tosh. in my defense, it was late/early for me. My apologies.
Democracy is a horrible form of government. About the only thing it has going for it is the complete accuracy of the statement that "all other methods of government are worse."
it's important to remember, also, that the United States does not practice democracy. In a democracy ALL members of the nation are a part of the government, and must vote on ALL decisions. America is a REPUBLIC, which, in it's most base definition, is a system of representative democracy in which you vote for a local representative, who hopefully then wields power in your best interests.
I hear a lot of people pissing and moaning about "America this" and "America that" and "democracy doesn't work" etc. I hear remarkably few suggestions for a practical alternative. thus leading to Wade's First Law of Complaining: "It's easy to bitch. That's why everyone does it. It's HARD to fix anything, and that's why so few people even try."
One thing to you and Gavan both: Anything from this forum stays in this forum. In the game, we are different people, and no matter how vehemently I may disagree with you (please don't mistake my vehemence for VENOM) I don't want it impacting anything we do in VO.
~D.
"Nigel the Indecently Dressed"
"Legin the Naked"
Democracy is a horrible form of government. About the only thing it has going for it is the complete accuracy of the statement that "all other methods of government are worse."
it's important to remember, also, that the United States does not practice democracy. In a democracy ALL members of the nation are a part of the government, and must vote on ALL decisions. America is a REPUBLIC, which, in it's most base definition, is a system of representative democracy in which you vote for a local representative, who hopefully then wields power in your best interests.
I hear a lot of people pissing and moaning about "America this" and "America that" and "democracy doesn't work" etc. I hear remarkably few suggestions for a practical alternative. thus leading to Wade's First Law of Complaining: "It's easy to bitch. That's why everyone does it. It's HARD to fix anything, and that's why so few people even try."
One thing to you and Gavan both: Anything from this forum stays in this forum. In the game, we are different people, and no matter how vehemently I may disagree with you (please don't mistake my vehemence for VENOM) I don't want it impacting anything we do in VO.
~D.
"Nigel the Indecently Dressed"
"Legin the Naked"
Really? So your flatly unsupported opinion of democracy failing and the United States totalitarianism is what you call a "fact" is it?
Whatever. Gavan, I'm done with this conversation. You're an ignorant boob wallowing in your own delusions. I don't want this to impact the game, but you've proven to be the worst sort of conversationalist: one that's wrong, has been proven wrong, and decides to argue with rhetoric and emotion rather than facts and logic. I have better things to do.
~D.
"Nigel the Indecently Dressed"
"Legin the Naked"
PS: If your head ever clears enough and you'd like to see some facts, I can send you the insurance photographs of the damage your kinds and benevolent "civil disobediants" did to my car.
PPS: Democracy might be flawed, but I sure didn't hear your loud mouth offering any practical alternatives. Other than the waste removal port for your brain, it doesn't seem to be doing much good.
End Comm.
Whatever. Gavan, I'm done with this conversation. You're an ignorant boob wallowing in your own delusions. I don't want this to impact the game, but you've proven to be the worst sort of conversationalist: one that's wrong, has been proven wrong, and decides to argue with rhetoric and emotion rather than facts and logic. I have better things to do.
~D.
"Nigel the Indecently Dressed"
"Legin the Naked"
PS: If your head ever clears enough and you'd like to see some facts, I can send you the insurance photographs of the damage your kinds and benevolent "civil disobediants" did to my car.
PPS: Democracy might be flawed, but I sure didn't hear your loud mouth offering any practical alternatives. Other than the waste removal port for your brain, it doesn't seem to be doing much good.
End Comm.
Are you bi-polar Klabbath? I mean, you could maybe blame that about face on a drinking problem, but I mean.... four minutes? Wow.
You also seem to have a comprehension problem. I offered one idea in particular that works quite well where it has been implemented: legislation requiring all citizens to vote. You offered yourself that North American Democracy is flawed.... so I'm therefore ignorant and deluded because I think this is a problem?
Your hypocritical and irrational ranting is amusing to say the least.
edit: And before you storm off in a huff and go beat up some hippies, do me a favour and show me just where you've successfully and factually disproven anything I've said.
You also seem to have a comprehension problem. I offered one idea in particular that works quite well where it has been implemented: legislation requiring all citizens to vote. You offered yourself that North American Democracy is flawed.... so I'm therefore ignorant and deluded because I think this is a problem?
Your hypocritical and irrational ranting is amusing to say the least.
edit: And before you storm off in a huff and go beat up some hippies, do me a favour and show me just where you've successfully and factually disproven anything I've said.
Klabbath: I try very hard not to bring up real-life politics in VO outside the Off-topic forum. I don't always manage, but I try.
Oops, too late, tosh.
(BTW I pointed Momerath to this thread, I'm SURE he will have commentary.)
(BTW I pointed Momerath to this thread, I'm SURE he will have commentary.)
LeberMac, I specifically said, *outside* Off-Topic. Inside, I'm quite fine with it.
Well, I meant, too late to keep it from spilling over. Heh.
Gavan;
Take a reading comprehension class. Don't call me a hypocrite until you can actually understand what I said.
End comm.
~D.
"Nigel the Indecently Dressed"
"Legin the Naked"
Take a reading comprehension class. Don't call me a hypocrite until you can actually understand what I said.
End comm.
~D.
"Nigel the Indecently Dressed"
"Legin the Naked"
LOL See?
Perhaps we should meditate on the relation between democracy and the tolerance to other persons' opinion.
STFU Sun Tzu - nobody cares about what you think!
Just like I thought. Nothing to show. Here, let me help you along.
Well, considering the distortions in our OWN media, I strongly doubt that Gavan has the vaguest idea what he's talking about when he's getting his information from sources that aren't even local.
Fact: In today's world (and yesterday's for the purpose of this argument), local news is globally accessible. Only the ignorant continue to put all their faith in one source of reportage.
Don't delude yourself into thinking that those dirtbags want anything more than their own rotten agenda. They're nearly as violent as Al-Qaeda.
This is just downright ignorant.
America is approximately 66% of the world's economy. We buy your raw materials and your goods, and we sell you our technology. We keep you afloat, and you can squirm and deny and pretend it doesn't happen...
Oh happy times! An attempt at some actual fact! But you know what? This argument is getting old. First off you're wrong. The United States' global share of exports is roughly 16.5% (averaged from Merchandise and Service exports). The share of imports? 19.5% (again, the average of Merchandise and Service). This places your country second behind the EU in terms of global market share. And guess who's hot on your heels? Why China! Conclusion? Get over yourself. If and when NAFTA falls, things will change very, very fast.
source
...my countrymen have discovered that when they are outvoted (such as the '04 election, or even the '00 election) it's easier to simply throw a temper tantrum...
Fact: For someone so well read on "political science and economics in [your] country" this has got to be somewhat embarrasing for you. The protesting and general uproar over both these situations had a hell of a lot more to do with the widespread rumours of election rigging and attempts to prohibit blacks from voting than a simply case of poor losers.
..the United States does not practice democracy...America is a REPUBLIC, which, in it's most base definition, is a system of representative democracy...
Contradiction: Which is it? The US is not a democracy? Or the US is a democracy?
Conclusion: So, from a comprehensive reading of your thoughts, opinions, and one single fact, I think the following sums up your argument quite adequately:
1. Gavan is an ill-read, ignoramus who gleans all his political views from comic books.
2. Protesters are terrorists, as are anyone else who argues against the status quo.
3. Violence is only legitimate when oppressing other nations.
4. America owns. Shut the fuck up.
fas•cism
noun
1: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
source
Well, not bang on, but close.
Well, considering the distortions in our OWN media, I strongly doubt that Gavan has the vaguest idea what he's talking about when he's getting his information from sources that aren't even local.
Fact: In today's world (and yesterday's for the purpose of this argument), local news is globally accessible. Only the ignorant continue to put all their faith in one source of reportage.
Don't delude yourself into thinking that those dirtbags want anything more than their own rotten agenda. They're nearly as violent as Al-Qaeda.
This is just downright ignorant.
America is approximately 66% of the world's economy. We buy your raw materials and your goods, and we sell you our technology. We keep you afloat, and you can squirm and deny and pretend it doesn't happen...
Oh happy times! An attempt at some actual fact! But you know what? This argument is getting old. First off you're wrong. The United States' global share of exports is roughly 16.5% (averaged from Merchandise and Service exports). The share of imports? 19.5% (again, the average of Merchandise and Service). This places your country second behind the EU in terms of global market share. And guess who's hot on your heels? Why China! Conclusion? Get over yourself. If and when NAFTA falls, things will change very, very fast.
source
...my countrymen have discovered that when they are outvoted (such as the '04 election, or even the '00 election) it's easier to simply throw a temper tantrum...
Fact: For someone so well read on "political science and economics in [your] country" this has got to be somewhat embarrasing for you. The protesting and general uproar over both these situations had a hell of a lot more to do with the widespread rumours of election rigging and attempts to prohibit blacks from voting than a simply case of poor losers.
..the United States does not practice democracy...America is a REPUBLIC, which, in it's most base definition, is a system of representative democracy...
Contradiction: Which is it? The US is not a democracy? Or the US is a democracy?
Conclusion: So, from a comprehensive reading of your thoughts, opinions, and one single fact, I think the following sums up your argument quite adequately:
1. Gavan is an ill-read, ignoramus who gleans all his political views from comic books.
2. Protesters are terrorists, as are anyone else who argues against the status quo.
3. Violence is only legitimate when oppressing other nations.
4. America owns. Shut the fuck up.
fas•cism
noun
1: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
source
Well, not bang on, but close.
That's what I thought.
/me stabs his thread
Die! Die!
Die! Die!
Bah. You gotta get Momerath to comment on it before this thread can die!
I can lock it now for the mighty momerath has admin powers and can post to a locked thread!
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and, in this country, at least historically, a right to express that opinion in public. First of all, this isn't a public forum. It is the property of Guild Software, to do with what it will. But our general feeling about Off-Topic is that it should be treated as a spam-free, public forum right up until you do something that could get us sued. Over the top, personal flame wars are not only conceivably actionable, but they definitely violate the rule you see in big bold text when you enter the forums: "BE NICE"
That is all by way of saying that sarrahanne was right to lock the thread. For the sake of those who's minds are not barred to the possibility of being wrong; of learning; of shifting their world views when the evidence is irrefutable, I'll respond to a little of what was said. And, since I was already planning to see a screening of the movie asked about in the original post later this month, I'll post again with my impressions once I've seen it.
The WTO "riot": I was there. The whole time. Protesting. So I know whereof I speak. I'm not going to quote every misconception I read in this thread, but there were many, on both "sides" of the aisle. I'll just summarize my experience. I wasn't everywhere all the time, and I did sleep, so... much was surely done that I'm not aware of. But in the short time spent, at friends' homes, not sleeping, the news coverage that I saw was severely slanted against us. No mention was made of the kind of exchanges that I'll describe.
There were over 50,000 of us at the peak. Point to any similarly sized group that doesn't include both pacifists and those to whom violence is a legitimate means to their ends. Can you? I certainly wish there had been no examples of violence from among us. It gave the media an easy way to spin it all against us. There was very little destruction or looting that I saw or heard about* and many protesters tried to prevent it before the police and (later) national guard got involved.
An example that I was very close to as it happened: Some guys with gas-masks** tried to push a large trash bin through the barricade. The cops, btw, absolutely were wearing riot-gear. Some protesters without gas-masks were attempting to pull them back to the crowd, which was about 20 feet back from the trash bins and about 50 feet from the line of cops. Before the bin was even halfway to them, and while protesters were still trying to drag the instigators back, the cops tossed a flashbang to within 15 feet of the crowd. I was about 3 rows back in the crowd, and it was the single most frightening moment I've ever experienced. It literally deafened me for minutes, and I was nearly trampled by the animal rush away from the blast.
At another point, under somewhat similar circumstances the crowd was pepper-sprayed. I was further away from that, but it was still cruel and unusual punishment for standing amongst peaceful protesters when a few troublemakers decided to have fun. Not only that, but it seemed to be a pattern that those who expected or intended violence were prepared with gas-masks and wet-down bandannas, while those of us who expected only peaceful protest had no protection. The peaceful and unprepared were *unquestionably* the vast majority. The only long term effect the cops likely had was to shift some people from peaceful to prepared and a few from prepared to pissed-off-and-we're-not-going-to-take-it-anymore!
The type of people that instigated violence in the "riot"*** will act under the umbrella of any**** large group. Look at the small-scale atrocities that have undeniably gone on in any war that we have decent records of. Look at the griefers in every MMO.
Some organizations attract these types more than others. Unorganized mobs like a large group of protesters are certainly one. Police forces, armies, and WTO delegates are surely three others.
* One might argue that I had a better random sampling than anyone watching on TV
** Which you would be arrested for having, if caught.
*** I wasn't at any other "riots", but from what I saw on TV of the Rodney King ones, I don't think WTO-Seattle qualified.
**** Often more than one.
The Income Tax:
http://www.paynoincometax.com/
I don't want to get too far into this one; remember that my views are not the views of my employer. Suffice it to say, that, being an anarcho-syndicalist I think Irwin Schiff is a hero.
I'll comment directly on the movie as soon as I see it in Chicago, July 28th.
That is all by way of saying that sarrahanne was right to lock the thread. For the sake of those who's minds are not barred to the possibility of being wrong; of learning; of shifting their world views when the evidence is irrefutable, I'll respond to a little of what was said. And, since I was already planning to see a screening of the movie asked about in the original post later this month, I'll post again with my impressions once I've seen it.
The WTO "riot": I was there. The whole time. Protesting. So I know whereof I speak. I'm not going to quote every misconception I read in this thread, but there were many, on both "sides" of the aisle. I'll just summarize my experience. I wasn't everywhere all the time, and I did sleep, so... much was surely done that I'm not aware of. But in the short time spent, at friends' homes, not sleeping, the news coverage that I saw was severely slanted against us. No mention was made of the kind of exchanges that I'll describe.
There were over 50,000 of us at the peak. Point to any similarly sized group that doesn't include both pacifists and those to whom violence is a legitimate means to their ends. Can you? I certainly wish there had been no examples of violence from among us. It gave the media an easy way to spin it all against us. There was very little destruction or looting that I saw or heard about* and many protesters tried to prevent it before the police and (later) national guard got involved.
An example that I was very close to as it happened: Some guys with gas-masks** tried to push a large trash bin through the barricade. The cops, btw, absolutely were wearing riot-gear. Some protesters without gas-masks were attempting to pull them back to the crowd, which was about 20 feet back from the trash bins and about 50 feet from the line of cops. Before the bin was even halfway to them, and while protesters were still trying to drag the instigators back, the cops tossed a flashbang to within 15 feet of the crowd. I was about 3 rows back in the crowd, and it was the single most frightening moment I've ever experienced. It literally deafened me for minutes, and I was nearly trampled by the animal rush away from the blast.
At another point, under somewhat similar circumstances the crowd was pepper-sprayed. I was further away from that, but it was still cruel and unusual punishment for standing amongst peaceful protesters when a few troublemakers decided to have fun. Not only that, but it seemed to be a pattern that those who expected or intended violence were prepared with gas-masks and wet-down bandannas, while those of us who expected only peaceful protest had no protection. The peaceful and unprepared were *unquestionably* the vast majority. The only long term effect the cops likely had was to shift some people from peaceful to prepared and a few from prepared to pissed-off-and-we're-not-going-to-take-it-anymore!
The type of people that instigated violence in the "riot"*** will act under the umbrella of any**** large group. Look at the small-scale atrocities that have undeniably gone on in any war that we have decent records of. Look at the griefers in every MMO.
Some organizations attract these types more than others. Unorganized mobs like a large group of protesters are certainly one. Police forces, armies, and WTO delegates are surely three others.
* One might argue that I had a better random sampling than anyone watching on TV
** Which you would be arrested for having, if caught.
*** I wasn't at any other "riots", but from what I saw on TV of the Rodney King ones, I don't think WTO-Seattle qualified.
**** Often more than one.
The Income Tax:
http://www.paynoincometax.com/
I don't want to get too far into this one; remember that my views are not the views of my employer. Suffice it to say, that, being an anarcho-syndicalist I think Irwin Schiff is a hero.
I'll comment directly on the movie as soon as I see it in Chicago, July 28th.