Forums » Role Playing
EULA: "You may not buy, sell or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any Game characters, items, coin or copyrighted material."
The buying/selling of Game items/coin is admitted above, and the EULA bans that. Whether Incarnate will do anything about the violation is a different question. The rest of this thread is hot air.
The buying/selling of Game items/coin is admitted above, and the EULA bans that. Whether Incarnate will do anything about the violation is a different question. The rest of this thread is hot air.
Welp,. I think the line gets blurry here.
These transactions are technically like not against the EULA. Its in game trades and someone gives a gift key.
So this is a technicality really, so its a hard matchup.
I will say though because theres no way to ensure theres a fair trade here (of blakq gives out an expired key ur fucked over harrdd).
This does make unequal footing and is kind of a grey area.
So i mean theres some credit to the opposition here, doesnt this go against the EULA? And if it doesnt, how is this setup to not make it exploitable?
These transactions are technically like not against the EULA. Its in game trades and someone gives a gift key.
So this is a technicality really, so its a hard matchup.
I will say though because theres no way to ensure theres a fair trade here (of blakq gives out an expired key ur fucked over harrdd).
This does make unequal footing and is kind of a grey area.
So i mean theres some credit to the opposition here, doesnt this go against the EULA? And if it doesnt, how is this setup to not make it exploitable?
I think this actually has a legal ground that could get fucky in a court setup for legal suit here. I dont know what or how or who is right but this is kind of wishy washy enough to be grounds for that.
I would suggest you halt doing this for now blakq incase it is deemed a nogo thing, just wait until the devs say something about it.
And im not saying that because i believe one side or the other, its just youve played this game for years and it would be fucked if GS had to do some extreme shit to set an example incase this did go into a legal place.
And im not saying that because i believe one side or the other, its just youve played this game for years and it would be fucked if GS had to do some extreme shit to set an example incase this did go into a legal place.
So blaqk violates the EULA in a way that benefits GS and VO. How's that for ironic, lol. If incarnate doesn't like what Blaqk is doing it would be reasonable to simply ask him to stop and refund all the money he spent on keys and reverse all the credits he got in exchange.
Bojan, unless you can show how this is actually hurting VO gameplay you need to just quit VO. Go write all your bad reviews that you are threatening to do and fucking quit. Your hypothetical examples are on the whole highly improbable.
Bojan, unless you can show how this is actually hurting VO gameplay you need to just quit VO. Go write all your bad reviews that you are threatening to do and fucking quit. Your hypothetical examples are on the whole highly improbable.
Holdup, everyone here in opposition has a right to say this violates EULA. They have a right of people..that play and pay for sub to the game dude.
My god. "That escalated quickly".
So, first of all, I just commented on this back in February, in the context of a Suggestion thread. Bojan was there, I'm not sure why everything is such a huge surprise now, a month later.
1) This IS technically against the EULA. The EULA dates from a much, much earlier time, it hasn't been updated in any meaningful way in like ~15 years (yes, it says 2005 or something, and those were very small changes). In "MMO-industry years" (a-la dog-years) that's like a century. The EULA has not really kept step with modern MMO practices, expectations, or practical realities. I commented on how things have evolved in the above thread, a month ago.
2) This practice, while not universally beloved, is not considered taboo in any major online game anymore. CCP and Blizzard all directly allow it and monetize it within their games. They made it a feature.. along with everyone else, practically. So, basically, if Bojan decides to post to every social media outlet ever about this issue, it will result in large numbers of people thinking that Bojan is a quirky anachronistic.. idiot. And perhaps gain us some players from the exposure?
3) I really don't like Pay To Win stuff, but I am a realist with very limited resources (and, we're already in crunch this weekend, and now I'm spending those precious resources on this dumbass thread), or as I wrote back in 2013 about "pay to win" criticisms of people with multiple accounts:
- Multiple accounts can yield some benefit to a player, and always have. The advantages aren't huge, and it's impossible for me to stop; just like someone buying the fastest possible computer, or moving to Wisconsin and getting the best possible internet connection. There are better things to spend my time on than issues I know I cannot control.
So, basically, if I shut down Blaqk or whomever from doing this publicly, it will probably continue privately. I do not have people sitting around happy to watch all chat content ever to watch for this. And even if I could.. what's to stop them from organizing elsewhere? I mean, Steam game-item trading became such a big business that the SEC has started watching it, because of non-Valve off-site trading markets moving millions of dollars a year (in.. pretend digital hats). The world is kind of odd these days, it's my role to do the best I can with what I have.
4) Bojan presents a straw-man argument that if this is "allowed", the seas will boil, dogs and cats will live together, and mass hysteria will surely result (although this hasn't happened in any other MMO). Despite the fundamental fact that this game is predominately driven by player-skill. Equipment and credits have never had nearly as much impact as individual skill, and as long as that's a big factor, we will continue to have a hedge against inevitable attempts to pay-for-advancement or pay to win.
In the meantime, I would rather spend my limited resources working on the stuff I can meaningfully change, rather than all the things I.. can't.
So then, What Will I Do?
Blaqk has definitely violated the EULA (buying/selling in-game currency/items for RL money/subs), and aside from that, he's kinda spamming 100 a bit, which is somewhat irritating. I'm also not a big fan of this kind of RL-to-100 crossover. So, I'm going to tell him to stop (here), and mute him for a week, on the forums and in-game.
He's a long-time player, he probably knew this was against the EULA, and if not he certainly knew how to ask for clarification. If he had asked, I would have said "no, I'd rather you don't do that".
I am not saying this activity is "permitted" now. I reserve the right to take action any time I want, on any issue, at any level of escalation I see fit.
If one wants to roll the dice against me on this, be smart enough to at least keep it off of 100, in PMs only.
If it grows into a problem that I don't like in some way, I will still take action anyway. But at least don't bother the general population of the game (1/100) with this.
At some point I may update the EULA and clarify or alter our policy (as I mentioned on the Suggestions thread I linked earlier), but this is what I'm doing for the moment.
Other winners from this thread include..
BOJAN:
I have no doubts that Incarnate allowed Blaqk some leeway on account of his recent investment and thus created a "pay to win" scenario not yet seen in VO in spite of his, over a decade long, assurances that VO will never become pay to win game and the current VO EULA.
This is the main reason why the "support ticket way" was not really an option.
Blaqk has not made any investment into Guild Software, if that's what you're theorizing about? Or if this is a reference to Blaqk buying keys and how I'm totally going to capitulate to his desires based on his key purchases.. I mean, what? No? His revenue impact was so substantial we didn't notice it at all.
Bojan, on the other hand, you are such a self-righteous ass. You knew perfectly well that the only approved way of handling this was with a support ticket. If this had been some kind of actual, genuine problem or exploit, handling it in this way would have been terrible for the community.
But, your desire for drama always exceeds everything else. You cast yourself as the vigilant guardian of truth and justice, the only far-sighted one with the nerve to speak truth to power!
In reality, you're more of a conspiracy theorist with a strong tendency towards excessive melodrama, and for giving me a freakin' headache. It's only on account of your long support of the game that I haven't kicked you off entirely.
I'm muting you for a week as well, both forums and in-game.
MYACUMEN:
INC clearly doesn't give two flying f***s otherwise cheaters and exploiters would be banned from the game. This will get swept under the rug like everything else does. This game is quickly on the path to surrpass No Mans Sky as biggest gaming disappointment
I don't know what you're raging out about, exactly. Really.. not sure what "exploits" (real or imagined) this is referring to.
If you have genuine exploits to report (or suspected exploits), use the ticket system? We do actively investigate everything.
Aside from that, we're also working like 90 hours a week, and trying to meet schedules set by people like Google. You know there's only three of us, right now. Maybe try to not be such a negative dick?
The content of your posts is not welcome on my forums anymore. It isn't that I mind dissent or people disagreeing with me, or even criticism (if constructive).. I have zero problem with reasoned debate. I just have no patience left for grumpy negative-nancy types that want to crap on us constantly on our own forums. Blame Lecter for this if you like, I'm just out of gas on the whole "you guys suck and everything you do is terrible" thing.
So, in closing, I'm also muting you from the forums-only for a week.
So, first of all, I just commented on this back in February, in the context of a Suggestion thread. Bojan was there, I'm not sure why everything is such a huge surprise now, a month later.
1) This IS technically against the EULA. The EULA dates from a much, much earlier time, it hasn't been updated in any meaningful way in like ~15 years (yes, it says 2005 or something, and those were very small changes). In "MMO-industry years" (a-la dog-years) that's like a century. The EULA has not really kept step with modern MMO practices, expectations, or practical realities. I commented on how things have evolved in the above thread, a month ago.
2) This practice, while not universally beloved, is not considered taboo in any major online game anymore. CCP and Blizzard all directly allow it and monetize it within their games. They made it a feature.. along with everyone else, practically. So, basically, if Bojan decides to post to every social media outlet ever about this issue, it will result in large numbers of people thinking that Bojan is a quirky anachronistic.. idiot. And perhaps gain us some players from the exposure?
3) I really don't like Pay To Win stuff, but I am a realist with very limited resources (and, we're already in crunch this weekend, and now I'm spending those precious resources on this dumbass thread), or as I wrote back in 2013 about "pay to win" criticisms of people with multiple accounts:
- Multiple accounts can yield some benefit to a player, and always have. The advantages aren't huge, and it's impossible for me to stop; just like someone buying the fastest possible computer, or moving to Wisconsin and getting the best possible internet connection. There are better things to spend my time on than issues I know I cannot control.
So, basically, if I shut down Blaqk or whomever from doing this publicly, it will probably continue privately. I do not have people sitting around happy to watch all chat content ever to watch for this. And even if I could.. what's to stop them from organizing elsewhere? I mean, Steam game-item trading became such a big business that the SEC has started watching it, because of non-Valve off-site trading markets moving millions of dollars a year (in.. pretend digital hats). The world is kind of odd these days, it's my role to do the best I can with what I have.
4) Bojan presents a straw-man argument that if this is "allowed", the seas will boil, dogs and cats will live together, and mass hysteria will surely result (although this hasn't happened in any other MMO). Despite the fundamental fact that this game is predominately driven by player-skill. Equipment and credits have never had nearly as much impact as individual skill, and as long as that's a big factor, we will continue to have a hedge against inevitable attempts to pay-for-advancement or pay to win.
In the meantime, I would rather spend my limited resources working on the stuff I can meaningfully change, rather than all the things I.. can't.
So then, What Will I Do?
Blaqk has definitely violated the EULA (buying/selling in-game currency/items for RL money/subs), and aside from that, he's kinda spamming 100 a bit, which is somewhat irritating. I'm also not a big fan of this kind of RL-to-100 crossover. So, I'm going to tell him to stop (here), and mute him for a week, on the forums and in-game.
He's a long-time player, he probably knew this was against the EULA, and if not he certainly knew how to ask for clarification. If he had asked, I would have said "no, I'd rather you don't do that".
I am not saying this activity is "permitted" now. I reserve the right to take action any time I want, on any issue, at any level of escalation I see fit.
If one wants to roll the dice against me on this, be smart enough to at least keep it off of 100, in PMs only.
If it grows into a problem that I don't like in some way, I will still take action anyway. But at least don't bother the general population of the game (1/100) with this.
At some point I may update the EULA and clarify or alter our policy (as I mentioned on the Suggestions thread I linked earlier), but this is what I'm doing for the moment.
Other winners from this thread include..
BOJAN:
I have no doubts that Incarnate allowed Blaqk some leeway on account of his recent investment and thus created a "pay to win" scenario not yet seen in VO in spite of his, over a decade long, assurances that VO will never become pay to win game and the current VO EULA.
This is the main reason why the "support ticket way" was not really an option.
Blaqk has not made any investment into Guild Software, if that's what you're theorizing about? Or if this is a reference to Blaqk buying keys and how I'm totally going to capitulate to his desires based on his key purchases.. I mean, what? No? His revenue impact was so substantial we didn't notice it at all.
Bojan, on the other hand, you are such a self-righteous ass. You knew perfectly well that the only approved way of handling this was with a support ticket. If this had been some kind of actual, genuine problem or exploit, handling it in this way would have been terrible for the community.
But, your desire for drama always exceeds everything else. You cast yourself as the vigilant guardian of truth and justice, the only far-sighted one with the nerve to speak truth to power!
In reality, you're more of a conspiracy theorist with a strong tendency towards excessive melodrama, and for giving me a freakin' headache. It's only on account of your long support of the game that I haven't kicked you off entirely.
I'm muting you for a week as well, both forums and in-game.
MYACUMEN:
INC clearly doesn't give two flying f***s otherwise cheaters and exploiters would be banned from the game. This will get swept under the rug like everything else does. This game is quickly on the path to surrpass No Mans Sky as biggest gaming disappointment
I don't know what you're raging out about, exactly. Really.. not sure what "exploits" (real or imagined) this is referring to.
If you have genuine exploits to report (or suspected exploits), use the ticket system? We do actively investigate everything.
Aside from that, we're also working like 90 hours a week, and trying to meet schedules set by people like Google. You know there's only three of us, right now. Maybe try to not be such a negative dick?
The content of your posts is not welcome on my forums anymore. It isn't that I mind dissent or people disagreeing with me, or even criticism (if constructive).. I have zero problem with reasoned debate. I just have no patience left for grumpy negative-nancy types that want to crap on us constantly on our own forums. Blame Lecter for this if you like, I'm just out of gas on the whole "you guys suck and everything you do is terrible" thing.
So, in closing, I'm also muting you from the forums-only for a week.