Chando Remaldo has placed a bounty of 250k for me death

feel free to kill me any time.

and collect money from Chando : )
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Extract from me logs :
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[jeu 05 nov 2009 23:01:35 CET] [100] <Chando Remaldo> Steal my cargo eyy!
[jeu 05 nov 2009 23:03:13 CET] [100] <Chando Remaldo> I hate
sector B-8 in sedina want to blow it up!
jeu 05 nov 2009 23:08:02 CET] ->Chando Remaldo: Must be fresh! Must be blood! C'mon feed me Seymour, Feed me NOW! : )
[jeu 05 nov 2009 23:08:37 CET] Blood Thirsty destroyed Chando Remaldo
[jeu 05 nov 2009 23:09:28 CET] [100] <Chando Remaldo> Im getting tired of blood thirsty
[jeu 05 nov 2009 23:13:05 CET] [100] <Chando Remaldo> where can i post bountys i have a 250k bounty
[jeu 05 nov 2009 23:13:18 CET] [100] <Shlimazel> Has someone lost about 100 CU of luxgoods to BT?
[jeu 05 nov 2009 23:13:47 CET] [100] <MysticRogue> who do you want a bounty on?
[jeu 05 nov 2009 23:16:10 CET] *MysticRogue* hehe someone wants to pay 250k for you to die :)
[jeu 05 nov 2009 23:27:08 CET] [100] <MysticRogue> ok Chando....you owe me monies!
[jeu 05 nov 2009 23:27:19 CET] [100] <MysticRogue> nothing personal BT, all business..hehe

[jeu 05 nov 2009 23:57:00 CET] [100] <Chando Remaldo> Anyone seen blood thirsty
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:01:20 CET] [100] <Chando Remaldo> So is there only cowards out there or can i invite someone in to my group and do a search and destroy mission after blood thirsty
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:01:43 CET] [100] <Tohasandra Chi> I will kill BT for you...for a price
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:09:30 CET] [100] <John Eldritch> "Chando Remaldo" - I just shot BT! do I get money?
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:09:53 CET] [100] <John Eldritch> there were leaves and petals everywhere
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:13:43 CET] [100] <Tohasandra Chi> Blood Thirsty...report to b8 so I can kick your arse...so newb will let me be!
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:17:48 CET] [100] <Blood Thirsty> go claim the reward too! : )
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:18:25 CET] [100] <Faustino Bashkir> BT, Chi will get more monies if you act all sorrowful!
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:19:18 CET] [100] <Tohasandra Chi> He does not believe I killled you
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:19:19 CET] [100] <Blood Thirsty> ye have to honnor bounties : )
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:19:34 CET] [100] <Blood Thirsty> post yer logs : )
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:20:19 CET] [100] <Blood Thirsty> he's so cheap he deserved his death : )
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:20:34 CET] [100] <Tohasandra Chi> Hell, if you can not trust CHI than you are lame
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:20:56 CET] [100] <Chando Remaldo> if you dont claim any boutny there is no one you need to make a deal when its warm and without proof there is no deal
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:27:34 CET] [100] <Tohasandra Chi> I should kill "Chando Remaldo" now
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:27:34 CET] [100] <Blood Thirsty> Ardenus come kill me and get 250k from "Chando Remaldo" : )
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:27:40 CET] [100] <Tohasandra Chi> for doubting me

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Now here's the winners list
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[jeu 05 nov 2009 23:26:56 CET] MysticRogue destroyed Blood Thirsty
[jeu 05 nov 2009 23:53:45 CET] Conflict Diamond destroyed Blood Thirsty
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:08:17 CET] John Eldritch destroyed Blood Thirsty
[ven 06 nov 2009 00:13:37 CET] Nahin Lor destroyed Blood Thirsty

[ven 06 nov 2009 00:17:22 CET] Tohasandra Chi destroyed Blood Thirsty

[ven 06 nov 2009 23:01:52 CET] Atice destroyed Blood Thirsty
[ven 06 nov 2009 23:07:37 CET] Blood Thirsty destroyed Shlimazel (oops still no chocolates)
[ven 06 nov 2009 23:25:48 CET] Eosana Pros destroyed Blood Thirsty
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That makes 1,750 millons ye owe to these players so far Chando, I hope ye have the monies to pay em cos i bet the list will grow
: )
And ye wouldnt be dishonest and spoil those players from a just reward. This could get ye vo wide kos : )

bleed well : ]

oooh can I get in on this

Hope you have a good space lawyer, Chando. Yer gonna need one.

[jeu 05 nov 2009 23:13:05 CET] [100] <Chando Remaldo> where can i post bountys i have a 250k bounty

Sounds like there was one bounty. Not sure why anyone other than Mystic would be entitled to it.

Not to mention that, according to your logs which I'm assuming you've posted as some sort of evidence, he never actually states that s/he was placing a bounty on your head.

The question, Gav, is whether "a bounty" refers to a one-off or for the specific act in question, no matter who performed it. With people, a bounty is pretty simple: if I kill Jesse James, nobody else will get a chance to claim a bounty on him. In VO, however, death is neither final nor, in any one instance, much of a punishment or inconveinence.

Since it's not final, posting "a bounty" for the killing of another player could mean either "whoever kills them first" or "whoever kills them." The question then becomes which interpretation is more reasonable, and it's clear that in VO "whoever kills them" is the correct choice. As noted above, dying once is totally meaningless; if it's meaningless, it isn't going to satisfy the sort of retributive goal that motivated the bounty poster in this instance. But since dying multiple times in a row -- best acheived by having many players gank your target repeatedly -- is exactly the sort of revenge that Chando seems to want to pay for, that's what we should interpret his words to have meant. The fact that multiple pilots went out of their way to kill BT supports the reasonableness of this reading: clearly, many VO players thought that was what Chando meant, since after Mystic they were all likely aware that they wouldn't be first to kill BT but the acted anyway. And since Chando can, assuming he's paying attention, revoke the bounty once he feels BT has been ganked enough, I don't see the "infinite cost" argument as very strong against the "whoever kills him" reading.

I agree that the more interesting question here is what constitutes an offer of a bounty in VO, sufficient to create the power of acceptance by performance of the desired act in those who hear the offer. Chando expresses some uncertaintity himself about how to do this ("where can i post bountys"), but there doesn't seem to be any doubt about whether he wants to induce players to kill someone in exchange for money ("i have a 250k bounty"), and his later public transmissions made clear who needed to die ("can i invite someone in to my group and do a search and destroy mission after blood thirsty").

That he wants to induce an act in exchange for credits is clear enough, as are the terms--his only uncertaintity was about whether there was somewhere special that he could post the bounty so that others, not on 100 at that moment, might also see and act on it. So I don't think there's any doubt about the bounty's having been "made." And the fact that he wants to "post" it, so that others not even online then could act on it, lends credence to the idea that he wanted more than one person to kill BT in exchange for 250k.

there should be a way to submit a bounty that then appears in the mission list in Corvus stations.

I recall the game bounty system being kiboshed because people are jillionaires and could put utterly ridiculous bounties on anyone they didn't like

So? It's not like it makes it any easier to kill them.

In any event, this can be mitigated thusly: to post a bounty, you must pay a 100% listing fee to Corvus -- being put in touch with assassins isn't cheap -- in addition to the whatever your posted bounty is. So, if you want someone to receive 100k for killing Dr. Lecter, you must pay 200k.

How much you put up governs how many people can be hunting a bounty at any given time. If you'd like to have two people on a 'kill Dr. Lecter in exchange for 100k' mission, you must pay 300k. If you only pay 200k for a 100k bounty, once someone takes the mission it will no longer appear until they log out without having killed me. Put up 500k, and you can have 4 bounty hunters out at a time.

If your mission isn't fully subscribed (say you put up 500k, 100k in Corvus fee and 400k for 4 bounties, and only 1, 2, 3, or no hunters have taken your mission), you can get a refund of any untaken bounties--but Corvus keeps the posting fee.

So what happens when good 'ol Chando's bank account runs dry?

His mouth seems to be writing checks his body can't cash.

Perhaps Mystic, Conflict, Nahin, John E and Chi can accept payment arrangements in Chando clones or something, they might be useful for scrubbing the engine nacelles, unfortunately they tend to die quickly of ablative radiation burns.

i like your idea lecter, i can hardly wait to have traders put bounties on me, only to collect them with another account.

Have you ever been happily drifting along outside a station in the middle of nowhere and then suddenly get blindsighted by a stray AGT+Sunny WHTD convoy escort from a faction that you're Hated/KoS with? Happens occasionally and it really gives ya a jolt and quite the repair bill if you survive. Can you say npc bounty hunters?

-Chaakin Tockoa

The question, Gav, is whether "a bounty" refers to a one-off or for the specific act in question, no matter who performed it. With people, a bounty is pretty simple: if I kill Jesse James, nobody else will get a chance to claim a bounty on him. In VO, however, death is neither final nor, in any one instance, much of a punishment or inconveinence.

Since it's not final, posting "a bounty" for the killing of another player could mean either "whoever kills them first" or "whoever kills them." The question then becomes which interpretation is more reasonable,

So far, I agree.

As noted above, dying once is totally meaningless; if it's meaningless, it isn't going to satisfy the sort of retributive goal that motivated the bounty poster in this instance.

This cannot be true, as demonstrated by the fact that dying once motivated the OP to post a bounty in the first place. Admittedly, the OP had lost some cargo in the process; however, the fact that the OP is willing to lose another 250K for something at most symbolic is indicative that said loss is irrelevant.

But since dying multiple times in a row -- best acheived by having many players gank your target repeatedly -- is exactly the sort of revenge that Chando seems to want to pay for, that's what we should interpret his words to have meant

This conclusion is only valid if one accepts the argumentation in the previous paragraph as correct, which it is not. You are also speculating as to Chando's motives. (Note that I'm merely saying the conclusion is wrong, the argument itself my turn out to be right in the end).

The fact that multiple pilots went out of their way to kill BT supports the reasonableness of this reading: clearly, many VO players thought that was what Chando meant, since after Mystic they were all likely aware that they wouldn't be first to kill BT but the acted anyway.

Nothing could be further from the truth. From the evidence BT posted (assume it is genuine), there is absolutely nothing that can be clearly or reasonably deduced. Said kill events (spread over the course of about an hour) could also simply have been generated in B8. It would b equally reasonable to assume that is was BT who was looking for a fight, not the other way around (by BT's nature, perhaps even more reasonable).

And since Chando can, assuming he's paying attention, revoke the bounty once he feels BT has been ganked enough, I don't see the "infinite cost" argument as very strong against the "whoever kills him" reading.

Not a single instance of a public offer comes to my mind in which said public offer has to be revoked to be terminated. Given the usual nature of bounties you posted above, it would of course not be necessary, as the reward could be claimed only once. In an unusual case as this one, even if we assume that the bounty would only terminate by revocation, the termination conditions would at least have to be expressed.

As to the "infinite cost argument": Chando being a noob, he would probably have limited (<5mil) funds which would strongly support the that argument, as any bounties exceeding his available funds would remain as debt to another player, which of course is a ridiculous notion.

I agree that the more interesting question here is what constitutes an offer of a bounty in VO, sufficient to create the power of acceptance by performance of the desired act in those who hear the offer.

Indeed :-)

Chando expresses some uncertaintity himself about how to do this ("where can i post bountys"), but there doesn't seem to be any doubt about whether he wants to induce players to kill someone in exchange for money ("i have a 250k bounty"), and his later public transmissions made clear who needed to die ("can i invite someone in to my group and do a search and destroy mission after blood thirsty").

That he wants to induce an act in exchange for credits is clear enough, as are the terms--his only uncertaintity was about whether there was somewhere special that he could post the bounty so that others, not on 100 at that moment, might also see and act on it. So I don't think there's any doubt about the bounty's having been "made."

Agreed.

And the fact that he wants to "post" it, so that others not even online then could act on it,

Excellent observation. I missed the last part.

lends credence to the idea that he wanted more than one person to kill BT in exchange for 250k.

This is sketchy. His offer was directed at more than one person. The question of the breadth of said public offer - many players performing the desired act, or one player performing the desired act once or multiple times - remains, however.

In my opinion, by offering "a 250K bounty", Chando put an upper limit to the amount he's willing to pay for revenge, ie a limit above which the money is more worth to him than the satisfaction of BT's death - be it one or many. He's a noob, 250K are a lot for them and I simply don't see how one could believe they would be willing to blow their entire capital on something ridiculous as a bounty.

Disclaimer: I'm not taking sides with Chando here, I just find the argument interesting. Chando is obviously butthurt and his response was as ridiculous as it was unoriginal. It was also insulting (250K? WTH?)

Not a single instance of a public offer comes to my mind in which said public offer has to be revoked to be terminated.

No passing grade in 1L contracts for you.

Are public offering rules in the US that much different? For the few countries in continental Europe I am aware of, a public offering can only end either by fulfilment, withdrawal (which has nothing to do with the type of revocation you described) or expiry. An offering permitting endless repetitive fulfillment would in most cases never hold up in court.

If such a construct is possible in the US, those "1L" courses you mentioned can't be that hard.

public offering rules

Please don't confuse a securities offering with a contract acceptable by performance, or with any form of contract law for that matter. It just makes my brain hurt.

I hope this is a case of us needing to swap our respective countries' version of Black's Law Dictionary, and that the contract law terminology in whatever legal backwater from which you hail just sounds like U.S. sercurities law...

An offering permitting endless repetitive fulfillment would in most cases never hold up in court.
An offer that's accepted forms a contract comprised of whatever terms the offer included (plus any applicable gap-filling default rules)--and there's no reason an offeror couldn't phrase an offer so as to invite serial performance by one or more persons. In fact, such contracts are quite common: if I post signs on my property that give my contact information, and state "HUNTERS WELCOME! I WILL PAY YOU $10 PER RACOON PELT YOU DELIVER TO ME!", I am most assuredly going to be hauled into court if I tell the second guy to show up on my doorstep with a 'coon pelt "sorry, someone else already showed up with one."

Hint: he will win enforcement of a contract comprised of the offer I made via the signs, and which was accepted when he showed up, pelt in hand . . . unless I can prove that he had some reason to believe that my offer was no longer acceptable.

this thread started off funneh then it turned into tl;dr

I didn't read any of that after that, but if uber rich players want to put a ginormious bounty on me, awesome! Each time a bounty mission is taken and won, the money is paid, and you have to make a new bounty. Awesome.

1st post edited, found more funny lines in my logs from Chando before our encounter : )

Please don't confuse a securities offering with a contract acceptable by performance, or with any form of contract law for that matter. It just makes my brain hurt.

I hope this is a case of us needing to swap our respective countries' version of Black's Law Dictionary, and that the contract law terminology in whatever legal backwater from which you hail just sounds like U.S. sercurities law...

Yes, I was thinking the same. I was indeed talking about contract law and not securities law, I just can't find my English/German dictionary for legal terms. I guess that's why "revocation" was off, I just noticed that within your realm, it's probably equivalent to what I meant by "withdrawal".

Hint: he will win enforcement of a contract comprised of the offer I made via the signs, and which was accepted when he showed up, pelt in hand . . .

Yes, of course. What I meant by "endless" repetitive fulfillment however is not two people showing up with two pelts, it's an infinite amount of people showing up with an infinite amount of pelts. "Infinite cost argument", you called it in your first post.

unless I can prove that he had some reason to believe that my offer was no longer acceptable.

So this we agree on, and that was exactly what I was talking about in my first post.

I pointed out that there were many such reasons, such as one cannot realistically assume that the butthurt noob would be willing to bankrupt himself over a taur full of cargo.

You assume that having to pay out several kills worth of 250k would bankrupt him, but you're talking about a game where even total noobs make millions and millions of credits in an hour. Argument fail.

And there's no infinte cost argument here, because the butthurt noob can stop further costs as soon as he decides he's paid out enough simply by announcing on 100/posting here that the bounty is no longer in effect. No different from posting a bounty for the death of varmints.