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Deneb Run #114

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Nov 04, 2007 blacknet link
Someone did bring up a very good point to me about this.

If you want to call something a player run event, then it needs to be run by players. Not devs or guides or players with limited guide powers, but normal players.

A very good point indeed.

Ed
Nov 04, 2007 Latos Paper Electronica link
Latos Paper Electronica: Editorial/Opinion

Illusions of Athority: by Roda Slane

Any player can make up any event, and operate it according to the same abilities afforded to all players, and at the same risks faced by all players. Multiple players can have multiple events, even in conflict with each other, or even for the purpose of conflicting with another.

The term "Player Run Event" implies that it is an event run by one or more players. If it was run by a guide, or a player with extraordinary powers, then it would be called a guide sactioned event, or something along those lines.

A well thought out event, will account for the way things are, not the way we wish they would be. Obsticals are not only a common affair for many players, but in many cases, the whole point in playing. An event should account for these obsticals, and perferably even incorperate then into the event itself.

A very popular event can test even the most experienced and capable of moderators, and leave the less capable with the apperance of being inmature, impatient, or otherwise unsuited to the task.

Democracy has a place, but even modern democracies tend to respect individuality. Just because you have more people of your opinion does not grant you automatic authority over others of a differing opinion.

As players, we all have about the same "phisical" capabilities. We can travel from system to system, and arm ourselves to suit our own purpose. This is the enviroment we have all joined in, and attempting to change that enviroment to serve the interrest of a minority is a disservice to the rest.

I have joined in the Deneb run in the past, both as a racer, and as a obsticle. And I think it is important to remember, that players are not required to honor, respect, or otherwise give any consideration or consesion to the event. In actual fact, quite the oposite is true. The event must accept that it is in direct competition with the interrest of others, and it must account for that fact.

This latest example, where the event moderator, pressed for time due to other concerns, was impatient, and lacking proper social skills, attempted to exert authority beyong their ability to enforce by the means common to our enviroment, and on failure to exert a false authority, decided to cancel the event, can be used as an example of how not to run a player event.

There could have been many solutions to this situation, such as having started the race from inside the station, to any number of other solutions. The primary point being, that the sololutions are within the capabilities of the normal player, and account for the fact that other players may have other interrest.

If this event is important to some, then they will develop solutions within that framework.
Nov 04, 2007 EddyHolland link
Wouldn't it be wonderful, if the Latos Paper Electronica learnt how to spell correctly.
Apparently Roda Slane is not only an obstacle, he is also an obstical.
Athority -> Authority
incorperate -> incorporate
apperance -> appearance
inmature -> immature
phisical -> physical
enviroment -> environment
oposite -> opposite
consesion -> concession
interrest -> interest
beyong -> beyond
sololutions -> solutions
Now, either the above article was not written by the real Roda Slane, or his previous career was as Editor for the Grauniad (read: Guardian).
Nov 04, 2007 MSKanaka link
Summary of the LPE post: Roda got muted and had to have someone else post for him.
Nov 04, 2007 Syylk link
It's a well known phenomenon, Foo.

Swarms fired into the ass hamper the neurological processes associated with the coherency of writing - especially, as his is clearly the case, if the writer has the head up his ass.
Nov 04, 2007 smittens link
Hahah. My favorite is "inamture," although "incorperate" and "enviroment" are up there as well. It's just like first graders trying to spell based on how a word sounds (although I'm pretty sure most first graders know that environment is one of those 'tricky' words, or at the very least admit the 'o')
Nov 04, 2007 blacknet link
I see that Mavis Beacon frequents this forum. Shame her companion’s maturity and wisdom is not also frequent visitors as well. One must look beyond typo's and at go directly to the point of the topic, not get hung up on petty immature things like typo's.

Ed
Nov 04, 2007 look... no hands link
Ok back on topic,

If nobody else wants to take a whack at it I'll try to run the next Deneb Run only change to normal rules is that the run will be at 5pm eastern time / 2200gmt since the last race was canceled it will still be the 114th Deneb Run and the prizes will be DOUBLE NORMAL PAYOUT. In the event of an attack on the run the starting line will be moved to inside the station (wich I think would be cool anyway) and there will be openings for peace keepers. If anybody is interested in assisting in any way, any help would be appreciated.
Nov 06, 2007 moldyman link
Glad to see the event being picked up and going on.

Back when I used to help run this, we had to deal with something similar two or three times. Only thing you can do is turn the racers against the offender and let them beat their aggression out :P People get bored and wander off eventually.

It's a player run event. And especially in a PVP FPS type game, every person is more or less equal. I say more or less because even the best pilots in VO can get overwhelmed and taken down by multiple pilots. Strength in numbers. Beyond that, not much you can do. Unless the benevolent dictators (read: Guides and Devs) step in with their above-player-level powers to do what they feel is right.

Until then, it adapts. Might just be time for someone new to host it :) We all get bored of the game and the events eventually.
Nov 06, 2007 Roda Slane link
Asking the devs or guides to step in and "do what is right" is a formula for disaster. What is "right" is completely a mater of opinion. No mater what they do, they will be criticized for it. The very second players feel like the devs have taken sides (any side) in a player conflict, significant numbers of players will bolt. The best option for the devs, is to formulate game mechanics that apply to all players equally, even if those game mechanics tend to encourage events or other aspects of community or gaming.

Asking devs to resolve a player conflict, that is exerted in normal game mechanics, in a game that is based on and built around player conflict, is not only counter productive, but is childish. It is on par with asking a server administrator to ban a player from a quake server (or any other strictly fps pvp game), because he keeps shooting at you. The only player conflicts that the devs should concern themselves with, are those that bypass or are outside the intended game mechanics, or otherwise have nothing to do with the intended design of the game. (and even then, their best option is usually to fix or adjust the game mechanics.)

Certain players keep asking for the devs to take their side of an ingame conflict, under the presumption that they are in the "right", and any one that opposes them, is in the "wrong". How would you feel if the devs decided to tell you, that you are wrong, and the other side is right? Any answer you submit can be mirrored by the opposite side.

There was no exploit demonstrated here. No one bypassed or circumvented intended game mechanics. The conflict was exerted strictly ingame and within normal and expected game mechanics. Grow up. Play the game as it is designed to be played. This is not a game of democracy or popularity or debate. It is a First Person Shooter. Shut up and shoot something.
Nov 06, 2007 MysticRogue link
At no time in my wildest imaginings did I think I would ever say this...but I agree with what Roda wrote. The part about the devs and people thinking they are choosing sides is very accurate. We have dealt with the game mechanics allowing something several times before as well. I think Look taking over will be a boost in several ways, it will give Miharu a break and keep a tradition going.

A tradition continues, the only change being the face at the podium.
Nov 06, 2007 EddyHolland link
Although your point is well argued Rhonda, I find myself battling not to discount it as self-serving; considering you regularly gave grief to experienced players and newbies alike; and regularly were muted for unacceptable behavior; and have made full use of exploits. But I understand your logic.

Notwithstanding that, there is an authority, and a responsibility, for Devs and Guides, to make sure an online game community remains healthy and does not get hijacked by some nasty figures. Its crucial to managing an online game. See this article from the Game Developers Conference : http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/17531
I hope these disruptions can be handled within the player base, However, there definitely is a balance to be struck.

I also want to point out that Miharu gave of her free time, on the weekend, to organize (and well), the Deneb Run over quite a long time, which creates additional in-game content (player created content), which improves the VO experience. Which yourself and a couple of other pirates sought to disrupt and possibly destroy. That is not decent.

Lastly I want to point out that, of course there were always Pirates around Deneb Run; but that an agreement was made to accommodate Pirates, which both enabled them to participate (in a hostile way) and yet allowed the race MC to start the race in Odia M-14 without any attacks. The behavior of yourself and your fellow pirate is in direct violation of that agreement.
Nov 06, 2007 Syylk link
Another steaming pile from the usual suspect.

Hey, genius! Did you ever hear about sports? They are the epitome of human competition, even conflict if you consider martial arts. And where on earth even the most violent of sports doesn't need a referee, an arbiter, a judge, an olympic committee, a neutral third party with rule-enforcing powers, to ensure that all the involved sides are given a fair chance of success, if not an equal chance of having fun?

Ok, I fed the troll. Talking about sportmanship and enforcement of it to the sewage scum universally known to be the worst sport ingame.

The hands-off approach produces griefers and harassers.
Nov 06, 2007 Ista Tolanna link
Instead of moving the start into the station, move it farther away from the station. You're all grouped so can find each other at 10k out. Moving it inside will make the race times not comparable to existing records.
Nov 06, 2007 Syylk link
Ista, the problem in first place was that the racers have been shot down in their trip from the station to the gather point, which is at least 5Km away from the station - exactly to avoid to disturb pirate activity in M14, and be disturbed in return.

No matter how far the gathering is, if you're lmined down in the first 100 meters.
Nov 06, 2007 Roda Slane link
My post is most certainly self serving, but not just. My post is to serve a more general purpose. A service to the spirit of the game. A service to the devs and players alike.

The Facts: I was not in the station sector. I did not disrupt this event. I was at a wormhole, waiting to snipe passing racers, which is in the spirit of the race. I am completely innocent in this entire instance.

The Truth: I have disrupted events in the past. I have actively threatened to disrupt events that conflict with my objectives. If I had been in the sector, and Miharu told me to "move along", I almost certainly would have blaster her to smithereens. I am guilty by predisposition. I didn't do it! But I would have!

The Point: If the Serco log on one day and say "We have decided to have a Serco only event, and we are going to have it in Itani space, and if any Itani get in our way, we are going to ask the devs to ban them.", everyone would fall down laughing. It would not matter how much time the Serco had set aside for the event, or invested in organizing the event, or how many Serco signed up to participate or listen to the event. No one would expect any Itani to get banned, regardless of how hard they griefed the Serco event. You can have any event you want to have, anywhere you want to have it, with whomever you want to have it with, but that does not grant you any authority over anyone else. Expecting the devs to cater to your whims, at the expense of other players, is completely unreasonable. Even more so, when you are asking the devs to alter the most basic premises of the game's basic design, namely, asking to not be shot at, in a shoot or be shot type of game. Your event is your problem, not mine. If you can't have it without interfering with my game, then don't expect to have it without me interfering in your game. You can tell anyone you want to "move along", but I highly recommend you bring your blasters (just in case). If you can not accept and deal with the most basic and fundamental premises of this game, then you are playing the wrong game.
Nov 06, 2007 look... no hands link
"At no time in my wildest imaginings did I think I would ever say this...but I agree with what Roda wrote. The part about the devs and people thinking they are choosing sides is very accurate."

well said, it would be a total disaster if the devs wer to chose sides, people would begin leaving as soon as they thought the devs had sided against them, and some of their friends (and possibly some enemies) would probably quit too, lets not forget what happened with EVE (it was eve right?) a while back when it was discovered their devs were taking sides, it was a veritable stampede. Hell if the devs stepped in to protect me from a horde of vipers, even if I'm only trading, I'd be livid.
Nov 06, 2007 MSKanaka link
People seem to be putting words into my mouth that are not there.

One: I am not "bored" with the event. I actually have a fun time hosting the event when enough people (three or more) show up and it actually gets to the point that the race starts. If I were "bored" with the event I would not have been continuously attempting to hold it even with all the crap I have been getting. I would have been actively trying to pass it off.

Two, on that note: Where the hell in this thread did I say I was passing it off to anyone? IF I intended to do just pass it off, I would specifically be passing it off to someone who has previous experience with hosting the Deneb Run (like Mick, Kat, or Ecka), not someone who has never done it before.

Roda is certainly one to talk about "interfering", given his tendency to interrupt duels and then subsequently whine when people interrupt HIS duels... In addition, last time he disrupted an event to the extent that it raised a similar stink to this, was when he started disrupting the Nation Wars because the organizers didn't want to create a 'grey' team for him. Funny, especially because he was raising a stink that it was his right to have such a team, when the event specifically did not enumerate such a thing. If it's his fucking right to demand a team like that in an event that he doesn't run, it's my fucking right to tell people to back off from the racer group until the race has started.

Roda's example isn't even equivalent to the situation, much less proportionally equivalent; anyone is able to participate and win prize money -- racer, pirate, whatever, either by racing or by attacking racers -- unless they have violated one of the official race rules. As far as pirates go, it's pretty goddamn simple: kills made in Odia M-14 will not get you any prize money from the race sponsors. Anywhere else along the route is a free-for-all. It is entirely reasonable to request and expect that people let the race START before opening fire.

VO has almost zero content that is not created for the community by other players. This player-created content is divided into three groups: forum content (stories, roleplay, etc.), client-based content (skins, Lua plugins), and ingame events. The client-based and forum content are not enough on their own to give the game the content it needs to keep people entertained while we wait for the devs to generate 'official' content to take its place. This is why these events need to continue to happen.

But whatever. You all can go ahead and be the assholes that Roda thinks you should be. Just keep in mind that disrupting an event in an effort to piss off ONE person (such as the person who is taking time out of their schedule to host it) is almost certainly going to piss off the rest of the people who were there to participate as well. You're not just inconveniencing the one person, you're inconveniencing everyone else who showed up to play.

And they are most certainly justified in getting pissed off about it.
Nov 06, 2007 look... no hands link
"Two, on that note: Where the hell in this thread did I say I was passing it off to anyone? IF I intended to do just pass it off, I would specifically be passing it off to someone who has previous experience with hosting the Deneb Run (like Mick, Kat, or Ecka), not someone who has never done it before."

its more like you simply dropped it

"
Hey, genius! Did you ever hear about sports? They are the epitome of human competition, even conflict if you consider martial arts. And where on earth even the most violent of sports doesn't need a referee, an arbiter, a judge, an olympic committee, a neutral third party with rule-enforcing powers, to ensure that all the involved sides are given a fair chance of success, if not an equal chance of having fun?"

i can think of a REALLY old instance, the gladiators in ancient rome
Nov 06, 2007 Roda Slane link
I think many are passed the point of caring if you are passing off the event. You are not running an event. You are running a failure that is parading as an event. Get a grip on it, pass it off, let it die, or accept it when you get replaced.

Anyone can run any event they want, they can call it anything they want, and they don't need your permision to do it. They can call it the deneb run, or anything else they want, and there isn't anything you can do about it.

I did indeed raid at least one nation war, demanding that they admit a grey team. But not once did I cry for devs or guides to take my side. I backed it with blasters. I appealed to the players to back me. I appealed to the orginizers to back me. But not a single time did I demand that the devs or guides do anything. It was a player run event, and it was in the hands of the players (who then strapped on blasters and chased me like a dog).

You can get pissed all you want. Your event grants you absolutly no authority over anyone that decides to ignore your prizes and awards. People don't have to grant you any consesion for any reason. If you pay for 12 accounts and spend 40 hours a week on an event, it still grants you absolutly no authority. No one owes you anything based on your say so. Every player has to judge for themselves who they owe and what they owe.

Get your act together, or get out of the way. You fail at getting this event lanched, one way or the other, one more time, then I will have to give serious consideration to expresing my opinion about this whole affair, in game, by standard game mechanics.