Genka, do a favor to humanity.

Die.

Alright, so, what if during a movie, a guy that paid to get in, starts screaming and interrupting everyone there. Everyone else paid, so did he.
So, the obvious solution would be to kick the guy out of the theater without paying him back, for inappropiate behavior, and being a punk.
So, why should it be different with BGC?? He was interrupting and spoiling the fun for everyone else.
The best solution wouldve been to kick him out for some time, if not permanently.

someone explain to me why any action by any player in a global war sector would warrant expulsion?

what the hell did he do to deserve this attention?

He kept delaying the NW by showing up with his rag full of flares and attacking everyone. Some players couldnt keep waiting and logged off, and many others had to start damaged.

On the youtube vid... last part looked cool taking scand out with the explosion

it's a pissy attitude but how's that different than

- station camping
- bp/bs w/o taking the mission
- trailing noob escorts for the loot
- noob farming
- law neut farming
- pk whoring duel leftovers
- forum bashing/trolling

and other dubious behavior? none of that have ever been sanctioned before. and imo, they're worse than screwing up with a war gathering (though that would fall into the pk whoring category).

i think it's pointless to throw a fit given no action has ever been taken on previous issues.

suck it up, folks, and gank the crap out of the offender. mute him too. but dont go crying up to a guide.

Before people get too lost in rhetoric lets recall the context of BG's fit.

My understanding is:
Last NW BG hid in roid for a while. -- silly and or bad
This NW well before the start BG was in a roid -- neutral
Omega told BG to leave roid. -- neutral
BG refused on the grounds that NW wasn't about to start. -- neutral
Omega attacks BG -- bad
BG kills Omega -- neutral
BG is kicked from NW -- bad
BG retaliates by thwarting an event he was dubiously kicked from -- i don't know
...

Before you summon executive power you could try to treat offending parties as a reasonable person and talk to then. If you unilaterally enforce your will on someone, why shouldn't they on you?

When you go to see a movie, you are agreeing to the specific terms of the theater.

This game also has specific terms, and they are not the same as a theater. Also note, that the terms of using the forum are not the same as the terms of playing the game.

The forum is expected to be conducted in a civilized manner. The forum moderators are expected to play baby sitter and cop, in order to maintain that civility. The rules are designed to be clear, and yet, for just about every moderator intervention that occurs, there is contention. This is the price of civilization.

The game is about conflict. About the only limitations on conduct are the barest civilities in communication. No racial slurs, etc...

Outside these minimalist civilities, almost anything else goes. And with good reason. You can not have heroes without villains. You can't have villains without victims. You can't have victims with out incentives to do something other than conflict. It is a complete ecosystem, with diversity and change.

If you have the guides running around playing cop, you squish your villains. No villains, no heroes. Your quaint ecosystem is now limited.

Conflicts like this one bring out the best, and the worst of the players. It gives players the opportunity to express their frustrations, and demonstrate their resolve. To be idiots, scholars, and students (often all in one shot).

You have to admire the perseverance of the host of such events, in the face of such chaos. But if a guide stepped in and took care of the whole thing, how would I see this level of perseverance? How would I develop this level of respect for my fellow players, without seeing their tenacity in the face of difficulty?

When a player can not reasonably be expected to be able to resolve a situation, and that situation is unbearable, then it is obviously a matter for a guide to deal with. Please avoid limiting yourselves by unnecessarily categorizing conflicts in this light.

genka makes a salient point.

While I agree that one person should not screw up an event for 25 others, I must at least consider whether any rules are being broken before I act against that person. I would certainly speak to the offender, and might disrupt their actions long enough to let the event start, but I wouldn't be banning somebody who hadn't actually violated the rules.

I wish I could be on during the events, but I have my family and my job to attend to. I'm on frequently, but mostly I come on late at night. Mostly.

I agree with Roda's comments about heros and villains.

I just think it's pretty terrible for the PR of the game with all the new players. I'm not arguing about whether or not a guide should have stepped in, but if said player likes seeing more than 30 people online I would reccomend not pursuing this course of action again.

Nation Wars are one of the few truly fun things in this game at the moment. It's ridiculously selfish and in my opinion, pretty damn unwise to ruin them for everyone. I'm of course assuming that the individual in question likes playing this game and wants it to be succesful.

I don't know. More than anything I'm just disappointed that this stuff is starting to happen. The one thing, and I mean the ONE thing that Vendetta had going for it for a long time was the community. I see stuff like this start to happen and it knocks Vendetta down one peg closer to WoW.

Actually, stuff like this has been happening ever since there were events, way back to Capture the Flag. This is also not the first event that this particular pilot has disrupted.

The promising thing here is that the community has moved to discuss and condemn the actions. A really cool next step would be to have the community DO something about it.

Publicly denouncing his actions was a good start, and while this may or may not matter to him (it has in the past) it may serve as a deterrent to others. Perhaps future events could include paid bouncers. Secrecy, which has already been suggested, could actually enhance role-play. More and varied tools are needed for the community to police itself, but there are things which the community can do now.

On the one hand you have very valid points Ghost. And I think there should be a recourse to settle these kinds of issues. I just don't think that guides should be the first recourse. This is an opportunity for the players to prove that they are capable of dealing with these issues by their own means. The host of these events have managed to hold these events, by their own effort, and by their own financing. In the past, I have challenged the host of the nation war on a point, and have since then even gained some support for that point. No guide was needed to intervene on anyones behalf. The host have set an example of player responsibility, and the rest of us can follow and extend that example ourselves. We can create forums for arbitration of grievances, and solicit for volunteers to defend certain events. These opportunities are a good excuse to create a stronger community, while still allowing for the freedom of action that is fundamentally inherent in the game.

So basically, some of you guys (not pointing any fingers here....) are saying that since this is a player conflict, we shouldn't be asking the guides to mediate/arbitrate?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!

Ok, seriously now. Nobody is forcing the guides to take action. It's perfectly within our bounds as a community of paying customers to ask the guides to show up and make their own judgment. I asked Firemage to mediate the situation as it was happening, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. As a guide, Firemage should be informed of these disruptive activities when they arise, and he gets to decide what is done about it. End of story. If he wants to talk to BG and ask him nicely to stop, that's great, and if he wants to devwarp the little bastard to Eo for an attitude adjustment, that's fine too, and it's perfectly within his rights to do it. That's what guides are for: fixing things in times when the playerbase is unable to fix them itself.

EDIT: and nobody's saying the guides are or should be the first recorse. If I recall correctly, we as players asked BG several times to leave the sector, and forced him out several times as well. It didn't work. In the future, the players would be wise to keep the sector under-wraps to prevent these kind of disturbances, but that doesn't change the fact that they could still happen, and it certainly doesn't mean that we should just say fuck it and call off events whenever unexpected complications arise.

Cunjo, maybe that's intentional.

The only shop owners representative who cared to post here just confirmed that (IMO given Vendetta's radical ineptitude to provide interesting and/or challenging NPC "villains" to the userbase) they are actually encouraging other players to wear the "look mama, I'm a bad ass!" hat to fill the void the devs are either unable or unwilling to address.

Whistler agreed with genka and Rhonda deliriums. What else you need to hear before understanding that the "hands off" approach to long time griefers is not only intentional, but actively desired?

Not only he is gleefully aware that this is the de facto standard ("stuff like this has been happening ever since there were events"), but he proceeds to further insult the NW participants' intelligence, deriding them that it's "cool they condemn it now" and challenges them to retaliate to the griefer with more griefing: "[a] really cool next step would be to have the community DO something about it" (emphasis mine).

Probably his suggestion is to gank BG till he has to logoff in exhaustion, or hunt for him across the galaxy, swarming to death everytime his nose peeks out of a docking bay, or perpetually lmining every station he homes into. The mantra of "avenge yourself with any possible mean" would be indeed intact.

...And if a public rep of Guild Software encourages us to do so, who are we to disagree? Where is my spamrag?

Blackhole Goldclaw does this all the time, it's kind of his thing.

Anyway, just have someone grief him at the station. Simple. Most player events need "Security", right? So, hire some security and have them kill him. Repeatedly.

To continue your movie-theater analogy, then, the solution is to nominate one or two people to immediately take the offending person outside and administer a hearty beating, perhaps break their legs so they can't walk around to the front of the theater to re-enter, then continue to enjoy the movie. Perhaps the rest of the audience should chip in for free movie passes to the "security" fellas.

Every problem does not need to be solved by guides.

What Leebs said.

I can't believe I'm saying this but i agree with Cunjo and Syylk.

Whistler: Right now what steps can the community take during a situation like this? Do you care that paid users were forced to log out?

They tried everything, including asking him to leave the sector, ganking him and even postponing for a while hoping he would give up.

I'm not even saying a guide or dev would have done anything to solve the problem. I just think there should either be more guides or have the guides we have more in game. And i do understand you have lives. We have lives to. We pay for the game and expect, at a minimum, that when we need some help there is at least someone to go to to mediate the problem, if the person or community can't handle it themselves. Is that to much to ask?

I don't mind the usual out of control chaos and partial order we have in the game but the player or community can only do so much. It's not our game, we are not in control of it you are.

I did stick up for BG at the time, and I still do, he told me on guild chat (ok, you can't see that) that he intended to come out of the roid before NW start.

I did ask him about it on guild chat, and then Omega 0 killed him (Omega 0 is no longer NW host, this was out of Ecka's hands too) so why was not Omega 0 kicked? I'm not sure I agree with all BG's actions, but if I were treated that unfairly, I would have been pissed off too.

I didn't want to post in this thread, but I feel I have to cos yer all whiney bitches.

OK, I got a little pissed and probably shouldn't have killed him, but the way I recall it is:

• BG hides in a roid before the war starts - because he had done this before and it got banned, I was kind of on edge.
• I tell him to come out, he doesn't.
• I shoot at him a little while he's inside the asteroid after he refuses to come out.
• One or two other people shoot at him too, he pokes his head out of the asteroid and fires some flares which damage me a bit, I get the finishing shot on him.
• I repair and come back, BG comes back too and fires a bunch of flares into the Itani group, killing me.
• BG dies and comes back many times after he was banned from the war, firing flares everywhere. Everything up to this point was relatively fine in my opinion, but this delayed the war a lot, pissed a lot of people off, and caused some people to log off before the war started. We had to start the war while many people were damaged because we didn't want to delay any longer.

Syylk: You have seriously distored my my intent, my words, my perspective, and my status as a player/guide. I wouldn't know where to begin to unravel your misconceptions for you.

I urge others to read my posts for themselves, rather than rely on Syylk's extremely skewed and provocative version of what I posted.

JestatisBess: Your questions are best directed to Incarnate. I don't have control of this game. I'm a paid subscriber, just like you. I don't make the rules or policy, I have limited jurisdiction, limited tools, and I can't really say what would be too much to ask.

Sooo, you all admit to firing on him first? hows about a large cup of STFU then.