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You really have to take it all with a grain of salt.
I think the problem for most people who defend the itani-skewed backstory is that it comes from a source that is easy to believe.
A Monk.
Perhaps you guys should read some literature from the inquisition, people seeking enlightenment can easily lose their way, and ignore many ideals in search of one.
Furthermore, those who seek enlightenment can often be very selfish, expect a certain amount of machiavellian in everyone.
I think the problem for most people who defend the itani-skewed backstory is that it comes from a source that is easy to believe.
A Monk.
Perhaps you guys should read some literature from the inquisition, people seeking enlightenment can easily lose their way, and ignore many ideals in search of one.
Furthermore, those who seek enlightenment can often be very selfish, expect a certain amount of machiavellian in everyone.
Shape: it even happens in the Bible. If I remember correctly, the first three books in the New Testiment were written by three different people, each in a different period in time, and each with a different political agenda. Thus, each book, while essentially saying the same things, puts emphasis in different places.
the Apostles, right, CP?
jexkerome: i never disputed that the uit left terraII, only your presenting of the event. I'll break down the problems for you so your small mind can grasp it.
""The UIT had to leave Terra II because the Serco were killing them""
-this you have only the word of the itani for. in reality we regretfully allowed them to go thier own way. In truth most serco were content on our adopted homeworld, the UIT had a wanderlust we did not understand at the time and that did cause some tensions, but we hardly drove them off by killing them without cause. Our police were forced to raid a few villages that were harboring bandits near our borders around the time the UIT were preparing to leave, and the itani have somehow drawn the conclusion that we were waging a covert war on the UIT to drive them away from these facts."
So, you cast doubt on the Itani words and then give me the Serco words and expect us to accept them? Stupid. Double so, when I'm quoting from the UIT records, not the Itani ones. And our records do agree with the Itani, MAINLY BECASUE THAT PART OF THE RECORDS THEY COPIED FROM OUR OWN, SINCE THEY OBVIOUSLY HAD NO OTHER WAY OF FINDING OUT WHAT HAPPENED THEN!!!! The Chronicles of Exile, my narrow-minded Serco, are the work of one Itani Monk drawing the information from joint UIT-Itani records, capisce, or do you "not compute"? That's also why it's skewed towards the Serco-Itani conflict and neglects to elaborate on the Union's history.
""the Serco reacted to their leaving with the relief one would feel if he witnessed all the roaches in his house hit the road.""
-how do you know how the serco reacted? once again itani speculation since no-one was there to witness it."
Once again, we were there; in fact, we approached the Serco to inform them of our intent (so they wouldn't think we were up to something odd and decided to wipe us out as well),and they set people up to oversee us and verify we were not trying anything funny. When the last UIT ship was about to jump out of Sol II and relayed that to Sky Command, the answer was "And Good Riddance". We still have the recording at the Museum of Origins in the Dau Senate, you're welcome to go there and listen to it if you wish.
""Then they topped it off by renaming the planet Serco Prime""
-the only factual statement in your first point, our government needed to boost the morale of the remaining citizens who were somewhat dissapointed by the mass emegration of approximately 1/3 of the planets population.
We were quite amused to find this out when you came to meet with us, asking for help and trade. We all agree it was nothing but an empty show of arrogance.
""When the Serco stablished negotiations with the UIT because the Itani were simply KICKING THEIR BEHIND, they debased themselves and offered apologies and such to the UIT so they would help them.""
-i suppose requesting aid from a group we had some minor differences of opinion with could be considered debasing ourselves if you are a total idiot.
The UIT chose to assist us because we were a paying customer, both sides have benefited immensely from the open trade bewteen our nations. As a matter of fact the UIT economy would probably crash if the serco market was no longer availible, just as it would crash if the itani closed THIER borders to UIT traders.
Once again you re taking a skewed itani propoganda effort at face value. I pity your narrow mindedness.
Additionally the word you are looking for is Established. you forgot a letter.
Well, "the serco debased themselves to us" is how it's taught at all UIT schools to all UIT children. We like your cash, sure, but if all three nations were to close their borders to each other ALL three would collapse. Do remember we UIT survived without either of you for some time before we found the Itani. Also, the Itani can't really close their borders, no one can! I mean, yopu people regularly jump over to Deneb to raise Hell there, don't you? They COULD cease to have dealing with us, but that would still leave the Order of Akan, who'd be more than delighted to be the only recipient of Xirite Armor, should the Dominion cease dealing with us as well. As for my spelling, I followed UIT tradition and passed grammar class by bribing me teacher :P
"Your third point is such random speculation and grasping at straws that its not even worth responding to in detail."
Of course, when you can't fight an argument beacuse it's true, it is far easier to just side-step it. I mean, that was that he-who-must-not-be-named kept doing while he was still around, wasn't he?
"Meanwhile it is in recognition of how important the UIT feel about this re-enactment that it is being allowed to occur. It truly was a historic event in the founding of the Union, and we respect that. After all, its not every day that a nation can point to a single event and say 'thats where we took a gamble and decided to try to live completely in space'"
Damn right we're proud of the Exodus! We fled for our lives and eventually had our old prosecutors on our doorstep begging for help. Now we're gonna lord it over you and there's nothing you can do about it but bend over and take it.
"Jestasis Bess: there is no such thing as a historical FACT, only a generally accepted version of certain events. Given that the victor writes the history books every "history" is in fact a culturally accepted version of events, often close to the actual events but never without some cultural shading.
In the case of the document in question your monks have managed to create a very well balanced piece of propoganda. By admitting to the events that occured before our nations were sundered by the war Akan started, they create a feeling of honesty and truthfulness that allows them to alter the facts of later events. In general the moderate tone throughout the document aids in this approach, but the fact remains that the document is biased towards the view the itani have of more recent events.
ALL of the "facts" presented about the serco and UIT nations are secondhand information, filtered through the itani viewpoint, and as such are interpreted data, not fact."
Once again, do bear in mind we have kept our own records, and that the Itani have taken stuff from them to fill the gaps in their Chronicles of Exile. I'd also like to point out they're far more candid about their failings and crimes than the Serco are!
This "Lady Serco" phallacy, for instance...
((completely out of character for a moment, the backstory IS a skewed viewpoint, as anything told from the point of view of one of the 3 nations should be. It DOES show the serco in a less than flattering light.))
((OOC: Whatever made you think that the UIT have not kept records of their history, skewed in their own favor then? very badly played out, my friend.))
""The UIT had to leave Terra II because the Serco were killing them""
-this you have only the word of the itani for. in reality we regretfully allowed them to go thier own way. In truth most serco were content on our adopted homeworld, the UIT had a wanderlust we did not understand at the time and that did cause some tensions, but we hardly drove them off by killing them without cause. Our police were forced to raid a few villages that were harboring bandits near our borders around the time the UIT were preparing to leave, and the itani have somehow drawn the conclusion that we were waging a covert war on the UIT to drive them away from these facts."
So, you cast doubt on the Itani words and then give me the Serco words and expect us to accept them? Stupid. Double so, when I'm quoting from the UIT records, not the Itani ones. And our records do agree with the Itani, MAINLY BECASUE THAT PART OF THE RECORDS THEY COPIED FROM OUR OWN, SINCE THEY OBVIOUSLY HAD NO OTHER WAY OF FINDING OUT WHAT HAPPENED THEN!!!! The Chronicles of Exile, my narrow-minded Serco, are the work of one Itani Monk drawing the information from joint UIT-Itani records, capisce, or do you "not compute"? That's also why it's skewed towards the Serco-Itani conflict and neglects to elaborate on the Union's history.
""the Serco reacted to their leaving with the relief one would feel if he witnessed all the roaches in his house hit the road.""
-how do you know how the serco reacted? once again itani speculation since no-one was there to witness it."
Once again, we were there; in fact, we approached the Serco to inform them of our intent (so they wouldn't think we were up to something odd and decided to wipe us out as well),and they set people up to oversee us and verify we were not trying anything funny. When the last UIT ship was about to jump out of Sol II and relayed that to Sky Command, the answer was "And Good Riddance". We still have the recording at the Museum of Origins in the Dau Senate, you're welcome to go there and listen to it if you wish.
""Then they topped it off by renaming the planet Serco Prime""
-the only factual statement in your first point, our government needed to boost the morale of the remaining citizens who were somewhat dissapointed by the mass emegration of approximately 1/3 of the planets population.
We were quite amused to find this out when you came to meet with us, asking for help and trade. We all agree it was nothing but an empty show of arrogance.
""When the Serco stablished negotiations with the UIT because the Itani were simply KICKING THEIR BEHIND, they debased themselves and offered apologies and such to the UIT so they would help them.""
-i suppose requesting aid from a group we had some minor differences of opinion with could be considered debasing ourselves if you are a total idiot.
The UIT chose to assist us because we were a paying customer, both sides have benefited immensely from the open trade bewteen our nations. As a matter of fact the UIT economy would probably crash if the serco market was no longer availible, just as it would crash if the itani closed THIER borders to UIT traders.
Once again you re taking a skewed itani propoganda effort at face value. I pity your narrow mindedness.
Additionally the word you are looking for is Established. you forgot a letter.
Well, "the serco debased themselves to us" is how it's taught at all UIT schools to all UIT children. We like your cash, sure, but if all three nations were to close their borders to each other ALL three would collapse. Do remember we UIT survived without either of you for some time before we found the Itani. Also, the Itani can't really close their borders, no one can! I mean, yopu people regularly jump over to Deneb to raise Hell there, don't you? They COULD cease to have dealing with us, but that would still leave the Order of Akan, who'd be more than delighted to be the only recipient of Xirite Armor, should the Dominion cease dealing with us as well. As for my spelling, I followed UIT tradition and passed grammar class by bribing me teacher :P
"Your third point is such random speculation and grasping at straws that its not even worth responding to in detail."
Of course, when you can't fight an argument beacuse it's true, it is far easier to just side-step it. I mean, that was that he-who-must-not-be-named kept doing while he was still around, wasn't he?
"Meanwhile it is in recognition of how important the UIT feel about this re-enactment that it is being allowed to occur. It truly was a historic event in the founding of the Union, and we respect that. After all, its not every day that a nation can point to a single event and say 'thats where we took a gamble and decided to try to live completely in space'"
Damn right we're proud of the Exodus! We fled for our lives and eventually had our old prosecutors on our doorstep begging for help. Now we're gonna lord it over you and there's nothing you can do about it but bend over and take it.
"Jestasis Bess: there is no such thing as a historical FACT, only a generally accepted version of certain events. Given that the victor writes the history books every "history" is in fact a culturally accepted version of events, often close to the actual events but never without some cultural shading.
In the case of the document in question your monks have managed to create a very well balanced piece of propoganda. By admitting to the events that occured before our nations were sundered by the war Akan started, they create a feeling of honesty and truthfulness that allows them to alter the facts of later events. In general the moderate tone throughout the document aids in this approach, but the fact remains that the document is biased towards the view the itani have of more recent events.
ALL of the "facts" presented about the serco and UIT nations are secondhand information, filtered through the itani viewpoint, and as such are interpreted data, not fact."
Once again, do bear in mind we have kept our own records, and that the Itani have taken stuff from them to fill the gaps in their Chronicles of Exile. I'd also like to point out they're far more candid about their failings and crimes than the Serco are!
This "Lady Serco" phallacy, for instance...
((completely out of character for a moment, the backstory IS a skewed viewpoint, as anything told from the point of view of one of the 3 nations should be. It DOES show the serco in a less than flattering light.))
((OOC: Whatever made you think that the UIT have not kept records of their history, skewed in their own favor then? very badly played out, my friend.))
To begin with, let me remind you that this tone won't ever earn you a post in the embassy.
Now, in medias res.
Quote from jexkerome:
Well, "the serco debased themselves to us" is how it's taught at all UIT schools to all UIT children.
End quote.
And that makes it right? I will not go into proving you wrong there. I hope that you see your errors and revise your statement.
Quote:
We like your cash, sure, but if all three nations were to close their borders to each other ALL three would collapse. Do remember we UIT survived without either of you for some time before we found the Itani. Also, the Itani can't really close their borders, no one can!
End quote.
Wrong again. The Serco lived for quite a long time without any contact to anybody. They would have most likely continued to do so, because they were not focused on exploration beyond their immediate surroundings. If every nation were to switch to autistic mode, there would probably be little loss and little gain for both Itani and Serco. Only the UIT economy (thus basically the entire UIT), heavily based on the money from the war between the two rivals, would feel a severe baisse. However, this situation is not even hypothetical, it is plain absurd.
Quote:
Once again, we were there; in fact, we approached the Serco to inform them of our intent (so they wouldn't think we were up to something odd and decided to wipe us out as well),and they set people up to oversee us and verify we were not trying anything funny. When the last UIT ship was about to jump out of Sol II and relayed that to Sky Command, the answer was "And Good Riddance". We still have the recording at the Museum of Origins in the Dau Senate, you're welcome to go there and listen to it if you wish.
End quote.
Even the Itani side of the backstory did not word it that way... but we're nitpicking now. So, when you claimed that our side of the backstory was so wrong, along with the Itani one, with what authority do you claim the correctness of your version? I smell bigotry off my bow
Quote:
As for my spelling, I followed UIT tradition and passed grammar class by bribing me teacher :P
End quote.
Grammar != Orthography.
Typos != Orthography.
Typos in posts = lack of calmness that enables people to use spellcheck applications.
Quote:
Now we're gonna lord it over you and there's nothing you can do about it but bend over and take it.
End quote.
That is exactly why we hold you in contempt, even though we need your technology.
Quote:
This "Lady Serco" phallacy, for instance...
End quote.
First off, it's fallacy... furthermore, your way of writing it shows a certain fixation. You should have a psychiatrist drone check out your brain.
As I was saying--
Belittling another person's beliefs only leads to more conflict.
Now, in medias res.
Quote from jexkerome:
Well, "the serco debased themselves to us" is how it's taught at all UIT schools to all UIT children.
End quote.
And that makes it right? I will not go into proving you wrong there. I hope that you see your errors and revise your statement.
Quote:
We like your cash, sure, but if all three nations were to close their borders to each other ALL three would collapse. Do remember we UIT survived without either of you for some time before we found the Itani. Also, the Itani can't really close their borders, no one can!
End quote.
Wrong again. The Serco lived for quite a long time without any contact to anybody. They would have most likely continued to do so, because they were not focused on exploration beyond their immediate surroundings. If every nation were to switch to autistic mode, there would probably be little loss and little gain for both Itani and Serco. Only the UIT economy (thus basically the entire UIT), heavily based on the money from the war between the two rivals, would feel a severe baisse. However, this situation is not even hypothetical, it is plain absurd.
Quote:
Once again, we were there; in fact, we approached the Serco to inform them of our intent (so they wouldn't think we were up to something odd and decided to wipe us out as well),and they set people up to oversee us and verify we were not trying anything funny. When the last UIT ship was about to jump out of Sol II and relayed that to Sky Command, the answer was "And Good Riddance". We still have the recording at the Museum of Origins in the Dau Senate, you're welcome to go there and listen to it if you wish.
End quote.
Even the Itani side of the backstory did not word it that way... but we're nitpicking now. So, when you claimed that our side of the backstory was so wrong, along with the Itani one, with what authority do you claim the correctness of your version? I smell bigotry off my bow
Quote:
As for my spelling, I followed UIT tradition and passed grammar class by bribing me teacher :P
End quote.
Grammar != Orthography.
Typos != Orthography.
Typos in posts = lack of calmness that enables people to use spellcheck applications.
Quote:
Now we're gonna lord it over you and there's nothing you can do about it but bend over and take it.
End quote.
That is exactly why we hold you in contempt, even though we need your technology.
Quote:
This "Lady Serco" phallacy, for instance...
End quote.
First off, it's fallacy... furthermore, your way of writing it shows a certain fixation. You should have a psychiatrist drone check out your brain.
As I was saying--
Belittling another person's beliefs only leads to more conflict.
jexkerome
why on earth would anyone consult UIT history books?
Its well known that the UIT 'histories' are altered every printing on the basis of who pays the most money to have thier "facts" published.
(ooc actually jex i was hoping someone would try to bring in a UIT version of events. :) )
why on earth would anyone consult UIT history books?
Its well known that the UIT 'histories' are altered every printing on the basis of who pays the most money to have thier "facts" published.
(ooc actually jex i was hoping someone would try to bring in a UIT version of events. :) )
I encourage JK to write the UIT backstory. Focus on the economics of things like a Ferengi.
Celkan: actually it wasn't the apostles that wrote the first 4 books of the new testament.
They were four separate sources.
If my memory of my theology classes serves me correctly, the earliest book is dated at around 60 AD (It's either Paul or Matthew, I don't remember which) and is believed to be the direct dictation from one of the apostles, probably peter.
However, all of the current books are compilations of four original sources, named P, Q, and 2 other's which I also don't remember.
The other 3 books, or "compilations", range in age from 100 AD to
500 AD.
And seeing as even the earliest one was dictated by Peter (who I always found to be a douchebag), there's not a lot that isn't colored by the culture and law at the time.
In this light, my hunch, regarding the Itani, is that the past is very skewed (owing to the dictatorial nature of their culture then), and that it colors their interpretation of the present, skewing that as well.
They were four separate sources.
If my memory of my theology classes serves me correctly, the earliest book is dated at around 60 AD (It's either Paul or Matthew, I don't remember which) and is believed to be the direct dictation from one of the apostles, probably peter.
However, all of the current books are compilations of four original sources, named P, Q, and 2 other's which I also don't remember.
The other 3 books, or "compilations", range in age from 100 AD to
500 AD.
And seeing as even the earliest one was dictated by Peter (who I always found to be a douchebag), there's not a lot that isn't colored by the culture and law at the time.
In this light, my hunch, regarding the Itani, is that the past is very skewed (owing to the dictatorial nature of their culture then), and that it colors their interpretation of the present, skewing that as well.
Mark first, then Matthew, then Luke, then John. Matthew was written approx 60-70 years after the death of Christ and matches up well with the gospel of Mark, which was written sometime before. Luke I forget when it was written, but yeah the Gospel of John was written last, about A.D. 150? I think, after the synpotic gospels.
(My mom was/is a Sunday School Teacher)
This all proves that the Itani are the only ones who can be trusted with the true story of the galaxy! If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must Acquit!
(My mom was/is a Sunday School Teacher)
This all proves that the Itani are the only ones who can be trusted with the true story of the galaxy! If Chewbacca lives on Endor you must Acquit!
Gospels. That was the word I was looking for. Thanks Shape and Leber.
Why do I always call Mark Paul?
Paul was the name of the scribe right?
but yeah, 150 years, not 500.... I'm really slipping.
To be honest, the only gospel I really like is the gospel of Thomas,
and that, according to the catholic church, is apocryphal.
Paul was the name of the scribe right?
but yeah, 150 years, not 500.... I'm really slipping.
To be honest, the only gospel I really like is the gospel of Thomas,
and that, according to the catholic church, is apocryphal.
Wow, this is really off-topic :)
The true letters by Paul (sorry if I do not use the correct terminology) are the earlier documents. But they were not meant to be kept. They were drafted by somebody who is atypical among early disciples of Jesus (from a political standpoint Jews opposing Rome and the Temple) and who clearly wants to extend communities beyond the jewish people. In fact he never met Jesus and learned nothing from the first disciples.
All gospels seem to have been written after the Peter's death, the defeat of the jewish insurrection and the destruction of the Temple (65-70). In other words, they are written when there is no real other way than Paul's. And they are all "biased" in the same way as they separate the teachings of Jesus from his jewish political and philosophical context.
So it's a good example of how the context at the time of writing influences the way one looks at recent history; however they were never meant to be historical works; they were made to reveal a faith and convince.
The true letters by Paul (sorry if I do not use the correct terminology) are the earlier documents. But they were not meant to be kept. They were drafted by somebody who is atypical among early disciples of Jesus (from a political standpoint Jews opposing Rome and the Temple) and who clearly wants to extend communities beyond the jewish people. In fact he never met Jesus and learned nothing from the first disciples.
All gospels seem to have been written after the Peter's death, the defeat of the jewish insurrection and the destruction of the Temple (65-70). In other words, they are written when there is no real other way than Paul's. And they are all "biased" in the same way as they separate the teachings of Jesus from his jewish political and philosophical context.
So it's a good example of how the context at the time of writing influences the way one looks at recent history; however they were never meant to be historical works; they were made to reveal a faith and convince.
Waitammint, Chewie doesn't live on Endor!
I find Lebermac GUILTY of tequila hoarding!
I also find both the Itani and Serco versions of our past to be too biased to believe truthfully! Only the UIT versions work, because we paid good money to make sure they did!
We have them in all flavors, folks! Itani-bashing! Serco-bashing! UIT-bashing! We even have one that bashes all three groups! come buy your own brand of bias, hot off the press!
Act now and for a limited time ONLY we'll include this limited-edition "drunk-by-Lebermac" empty tequila bottle, with a numbered certificate of authenticity signed by the man himself!
But that's not all! if you order within the next 30 minutes, we'll also include a piece of scrap metal from the Original Itani Ark, mounted in a Xirite plaque!
Only 3'000,000,000 copies remain of these fabulous, valuable books! Don't be left without this precious document on the origins of the Dispossessed! ACT NOW!
I find Lebermac GUILTY of tequila hoarding!
I also find both the Itani and Serco versions of our past to be too biased to believe truthfully! Only the UIT versions work, because we paid good money to make sure they did!
We have them in all flavors, folks! Itani-bashing! Serco-bashing! UIT-bashing! We even have one that bashes all three groups! come buy your own brand of bias, hot off the press!
Act now and for a limited time ONLY we'll include this limited-edition "drunk-by-Lebermac" empty tequila bottle, with a numbered certificate of authenticity signed by the man himself!
But that's not all! if you order within the next 30 minutes, we'll also include a piece of scrap metal from the Original Itani Ark, mounted in a Xirite plaque!
Only 3'000,000,000 copies remain of these fabulous, valuable books! Don't be left without this precious document on the origins of the Dispossessed! ACT NOW!
um, the Ark is permanently located on Itan in the center of a park...
someone's in trouble....