I'm glad you asked. I think, instead of players even lifting a finger, that the game server should keep track of who witnessed player x kill y [i.e., who was in the same sector and thus received a "Waleran destroyed RacerX" message], and attach that small datum to the record of that player's ship in the database [or however VO works]. When that player's [or even NPC's] ship comes to a station, VO checks to see if any of the kills witnessed were of this station's faction. If so, report is made. The datum expires after a certain time.

Thus, killing witnesses could prevent the news getting out .... or witnesses who didn't want the report to get out could avoid certain stations until they think the news is old -- whether the expiration date should be known, or even be fixed or random, I leave open to debate.

This somewhat resembles real-world maritime sailing practice, doesn't it? Ships are expected to keep logs, turn them in for inspection at ports [to some degree or other] .....

Also, since VO keeps a log, we could just use that log as the reporting source. VO checks the log for the datum I describe above ... so, if a player doesn't want it reported from his log, he can go to windowed mode in VO and edit his log. Otherwise, it gets reported until that datum disappears from the log. Dunno how long the record is in the log, in terms of game time, but it must be finite, otherwise the log file would grow to unmanageable size.

Or the datum could be in a separate log, which players could choose to delete or alter outside of VO, but, by default, would be submitted at a station. Reports of killings would be shared with factions friendly to the station.

kinda reminds me of the bladerunner game. everytime you go to the station you log in with all of the clues you have found. later, however, you can get a mod which lets you choose what to log in.

but, back on subject. perhaps something simpler. if FF is a n00b protection sorta thing, then maybe it could be linked to your levels... so (as an example) until you are combat level 3, lets say, your FF is off, but then it gets turned on after that.

That may not fix the CtC trick, but that could be fixed by turning FF on for CtC...

personally, though, i like not being shot by people in my country/faction/thingy. mainly because i am a noob... but you know.

Friendly fire is _NOT_ encouraging roleplaying. Not even close. I also don't see how station killing would be possible. If you shoot someone, the bots will take you out and/or you loose standing. If you really must, limit friendly fire to nation space, but in gray space its pointless.

I'm glad I started this conversation and even more happy to find out I'm not the only one that dislikes the friendly fire protection. Imo it ruins a lot of the fun and I'm hoping it will disappear some day.

I don't see the point in preventing friendly fire. Anywhere. Newbs have a double protection against killers: the hit on the faction standing and the xp loss.

As to role playing, I don't see why a blue pirate/PKer must be itani-hated to kill the same guys as an itani-admired red or gold pirate/PKer.

same reason as why you doubleprotect children against harm.

thanks for the opening rene.

Scenario.

2 n00bs just started, one is familiar with this type of game though (played elite, wing commander, jumpgate, freelancer, freespace ect ect... bleh forever and that), one isnt.

One n00b see's other as a target and thinks *Hmmm, i will test my weapons on him* they're at a worm hole that does not happen to have a station, one n00b kills the other and hella faction drop (his own).

One n00b see's other n00b at station, thinks he will test his guns, ect, gets blasted.

I realise i can create an evil Itani char that can kill Itani with no effort.

The grey space idea, maybe, but they need to establish some kind of group protection (for those who are uhum, grouped) so pirate/trader/ctc/ect. players dont shoot each other by accident first.

Removing ff altogether is a bad idea IMHO, theres always a TKer out there, it could be you!

Then remove FF protection in grey space. That's the best compromise I can think of.

I used to think that "group protection" is a good idea, but now I think it can so abused. Makes you think harder when you fight in multis when you can hurt your friends....(ever fight as a light fighter escort to the Tram-Turd?)

@yoda:

but there are any number of other ways to make stations n00b-friendly that are not exploitable in the same way that the current friendly-fire prevention is. i agree with you that to a certain extent people, especially n00bs, need protection from TKs, but i don't like the way the game currently does it, and i'd rather see it done in other ways.

and no, groups don't need friendly-fire prevention either. this can easily be avoided by people just looking whether they're shooting, just like IRL.

Been there, took splash damage.

For instance (uhum, I hope said player does not mind this quote, uhum, they will know who it is, It happened in grey space, as its the current CTC run)

*Serco friendy UIT* yoda, be abit carefull, if it explodes, im going to lock onto the cargo, and flare spam it.
(Trans goes pop as I started to read msg)
yodaofborg - no worries i will grab it.
me dies.

nobody else see a problem?

there needs to be something else added IMHO before FF is removed, I already have to deal with friendly UIT accidently popping me, (and vice versa)...

...*im not a startrek fan, as it goes, but for instance "captain, modulate you shields to this frequency, and our weapons will have no effect" - bleh, if you have to, its there for a reason, I have said my thoughts, but this thread really should be in suggestions by now (it is).

Yoda : That's exactly my point. Basically, you suffered FF, and it is realistic. So it's important to work out new tactics instead of random spam. Like your UIT friend, he shouldn't flare spam the cargo as you try to grab it, the flare spamming I presume is to prevent itanis from grabbing it when the transport goes pop, but it also prevent you from getting as it should.

I was actually hoping that in the advanced time that you are living in that weapons came with a standard no-harm nice people (FF) gizmo. Or a safety that normal people can not circumvent without adding a chance of blowing up the weapon (and the ship with it) because of a certain commonly identified unique race/nation genestring.

I however never understood why the black market doesn't offer weapons that haven't got this feature. It would be an integral part of an rpg, I think. Since you would need a decent/high standing with corvus, and having a high one with corvus implied being at least hated with all the others (with the exception of maybe a couple others in grey space...). It would be just like the illegal guns/weapons from real life. And as usual depending on the place where you got it and your disposition the chances of it blowing up will vary.

But this is only an idea that takes advantage of the (counter)viewpoints of FF and then incorperates it into a feature of the entire game. But like I said, I'm still not convinced on the needs for actually taking out FF-protection (ow, I can never remember if it is FF on or FF off so it's the one where I'm protected from me own nationplayers), I kinda liked it.

cheers

The scenario with newbs killing each other in their nation space does not look as a valid reason for prohibiting FF. They are warned in the loading screen that a big faction hit will be suffered. They see the warning in the center of their screen in due time, ie before the last deadly shots (they do not have this charming possibility of spamming flares). Even if they continue, the faction hit will not be enough to bring them KOS. Btw they will rather be tricked by killing an enemy with good standing with their own nation - which is a surprising feature of the standing system.

On the contrary, it does not make sense that a guy can emerge from a flare spamming without a scratch just because he's of the same nation than the spammer.

How about replacing FF with this:
In monitored space, if you kill another player, you receive a bonus/penalty equal to the opposite of the victims standing with the nation that is monitoring?

Example: A has a standing of +500, B has a standing of -400. A kills B and gets +400 standing = +900. B kills A and gets -500 = -900.

Within the -1000 to +1000 range, of course.

that sounds just about right! Maybe it shouldn't be 100% of their standing. Half, maybe? Dunno

making friendly fire decided by where the weapon comes from sounds cool, just make variants of all the standard weapons that allow for friendly fire and sell them out of corvus stations, any noob that can make his way to a corvus station and get one of theses likely knows enough that his faction will bomb if he does it in nation space. Plus its a nice simple answer to a question with lots of complex answers, then it allows you to easily choose too.

@tramshed
Smart weapons that will produce the effect you mention should be technologically possible, but introduce some (imo) "rational" issues to deal with.
1) All weapons would require a target lock to fire and would simply not lock on a 'weapon-friendly' target. I assume this is some comparison with the nationality of the weapon (not necessarily the character) vs the current faction of the target with said nation.
2) Ammo/bolts that miss, or are on the way to, the appropriately locked target would also need to be smart enough, before normally expending/dissipating, to not damage another 'weapon-friendly' target that happens to get in the way (CtC/group combat?); it would instead simply expend itself harmlessly on impact. Admittedly, not implementing this point could produce some interestingly real friendly fire incidents, but also introduces the possibility of controversial exploits...
3) Any security measure can (imo) eventually be bypassed, and if it is technologically possible to build such weapons, it follows (imo) that the innovative folks at, say, Corvus can undo/build-around the 'no-friendly' targetting (this point is really more of a 'back-story' issue). Your alternative of Corvus offering weapons from all nations would be simpler.
3) Combined, these issues could require the code to execute an awful lot of decisions during furious combat involving multiple ships; lots of targets, lots and lots of destruction being loosed by weapons that may or may not have 'no-friendly' targetting; probably not that big a deal with a 1 on 1 duel, but if/when we start having large battles with multiple ships (or even now with CtC?) this could be a luxury we'd be better off without...?

If the game progresses this way, perhaps it would be best to implement 1) and NOT 2) and simply do away with the current FF implementation...?

On the suggestion that FF can be off in group battles:

this would be a pain for people who want to stay in good standings with their faction(s) of choice IF the penalty is too high.. which is an argument against turning FF off everywhere (since if the penalty is small it wouldn't do much to prevent newbie hunting and such). It would also be a reason not to choose the 'dependent on target standing' proposal.. as your group mates might just like the same factions as you do.

Of course, keeping FF in some areas and not in others may be the answer as it'd protect newbies and the penalties wouldn't have to be very high (for an accidental hit.. a kill should give substantially higher penalty).

Well, in Grey, where actions are rarely monitored, I doubt that it would ever be a problem for people trying to keep good standing.