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For the Lady Serco!

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Jan 16, 2005 Nya13 link
*Shape*
CtC is boring 90% of time
Why? because its a race.
no existing fights.

10% of time i find a fights.
its the only reason why i still playing the game.
once all itanis give up.

i quit.

hope the capitol ship will give us a existing fights.
no matter if there are no itani players (opponents) to fight.
we just need something that give us some interesting fights and goal in game. something to fight.

advanced combat mission is just a xp tool. not a goal in game.
feel why lot itanis PvPers (vets) left the game.
Jan 16, 2005 Martin.mac.au link
2 points.

First to Spellcast. I am not Macguy, not related to him don't even know him, until he passes me 25k. :D

Second: He may have been invited to join, yes, but there was a reason he was delivering cargo for Serco in the first place.
Jan 16, 2005 Apex link
I don't think there is much dissagreement here. CTC is getting pointless. why do we still do it? why do *I* still do it even though I have hundreds of N3's? It's demoralizing to get smacked down when you're trying your hardest. LIke spider said, alot of us make whole-hearted attempts at a serco convoy and get met with 10 sercos armed to the teeth with skill and every kind of weapon config there is.

Someone said that the current Itani "n00bs" will eventually be skilled players, that's not necessarily true if we keep getting smacked like this, newbies have nothing to learn from a hog swarmer, except to stay away from hog swarmers, and that's just one example. playing against truely skilled players is something else entirely.

I really do hope the cap ship brings an extra element to the war. I fear even then, though, that the itani will be demoralized even further, and stop doing combat, or even quit VO, like i've already seen 4 of my friends do for that very reason.
Jan 16, 2005 Beolach link
Ok, IMO this thread has gotten way to big & has too much emotion in it. This is going to be my last post in it.

> Someone said that the current Itani "n00bs" will eventually be skilled players,
> that's not necessarily true if we keep getting smacked like this, newbies have
> nothing to learn from a hog swarmer, except to stay away from hog swarmers, and
> that's just one example. playing against truely skilled players is something else
> entirely.

I disagree. As any chess player will tell you, you learn a heck of a lot more from losing than winning. From hog swarmers, n00bs can learn that *they* can fly as hog swarmers, and do to others what was done to them.

As for people leaving because it's not fun for them anymore, well, if it's not fun then of course there's no reason to stay. But if you're tying your 'having fun' to 'winning,' and stopping because you keep losing, then I'm going to point out that if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the precipitate (chemistry joke there, laugh even if you don't understand it).

The last thing I want to say, is that it's really not all that important who wins. I can have a heck of a lot of fun fighting a losing battle. When you go solo against "10 sercos armed to the teeth with skill and every kind of weapon config there is," do you even manage to kill the transport? Grab the cargo, even if you don't get away with it? Either of those would be impressive enough accomplishments that I'd get a nice adrenaline buzz from pulling it off.
Jan 17, 2005 CrippledPidgeon link
Re: Wyfling's complaints about the CtC

1. The Itani use far more "uncatchable ships" than the Serco. I very rarely see Itani attackers using anything other than a Centurion. There's the occasional Maud or Hog, but only one or two Itani play as each. As for the gloating, that only occasionally happens (l'm not saying that I've never done it, though), it's usually a "For Lady Serco!" and then congratulations to the capper. But if you consider that gloating, you could always leave 100. I usually do 'cuz it can be pretty distracting anyway.

2. Usually not. The main thing is that the Serco aren't afraid to attack in Bractus C5, nor are afraid to violate the no-fire-zone, if they play it right. The Itani NEVER attack in Sedina L2. They always attack in Sedina B8, and quite a few transports have been destroyed there.

3. I'll address this later.

4. I'll address this later.

5. Last week, only 3 UIT on the CtC page were aligned with the Serco, and the rest were with the Itani. Despite that, those three UIT did carry in more cargo than the rest of the UIT combined. As for the bit about the SAF, I'll address that later.

6. There's nothing stopping an Itani from getting admired in Serco space. Heck, Niki will attack transports in Pyronis L-6, and I don't think that he's admired.

7. So you don't want us to fight as well as we can? Don't you think that's a little unrealistic to ask?

If you look back, in the early CtC rounds. We were very inconsistant in our playing. We'd win a round, lose the next round, win the next round, etc. A bunch of us decided that we enjoyed CtCing with each other, so Lin formed the SAF around a core of vets who already knew each other from beta. Along with that, we all decided that we would do our best to dominate the CtC (as well as whatever nation competitions we'd compete in). There were a couple UIT that consistantly participated with us and we enjoyed their company, so we put them into the CtC too. Over the weeks, we recruit people who show good improvement, or good performance in the CtC. The fact that we have guild chat means that we can organize far more easily than we ever could.

Yes, there is the IDF and the ISP, but they never really made the commitment to the CtC that the SAF did. The IDF and ISP combined have 66 players (47 in the IDF, 19 in the ISP). Among the IDF, only 9 players appeared on last week's list of Itani participants, and among the ISP, only 5 players appeared on the list. That means that out of the 35 Itani participants, only 14 were members of the IDF and the ISP. In contrast, the SAF has 38 members, and a total of 21 Serco and 2 UIT (totalling 23 members) appeared on last week's list. There were only 7 Serco on last week's list of 28 Serco that were NOT part of the SAF.

Most of the SAF don't even use the Neutron III that is the Serco prize anymore. True, we do take it somewhat seriously (we DO play to win), but we also play because we enjoy playing with each other, and we enjoy the PvP opportunities.

If the Itani want any realistic chance of winning the CtC, they're going to have to be far more organized. Even if you have one or two players who want to play their best, it's nearly futile to throw them at 10 defenders. This means that CtC cannot be won by a series of individual efforts, but rather by good teamwork.

As for newbs not wanting to go up against swarms, there was a convoy that I tried to defend that was attacked by no less than three Itani in swarmer hogs and a couple centurions. This meant that by the time I died, there were probably 40 or more missiles flying in space... AT ME. True, there are some SAF who use swarms, but there are far more of us who don't.

Not wanting to sound too harsh, but it seems to me that a lot of Itani want to reap the benefits of winning the CtC without putting in the effort to actually win it. The Itani were doing pretty well at the beginning of the week, but by Thursday, coordinated attack groups of 5 or 6 Itani dropped down to 1 or 2 Itani attacking occasionally. If you want to win the CtC, you have to put in the work required to generate and EARN that win - especially since the Serco and the SAF have no intention of simply "giving" it to you.
Jan 17, 2005 Shapenaji link
Look, I'm not saying that anything should be given. And there's a lot of finger pointing back and forth.

All I'm saying is that people have the most fun when the combat is relatively even. And its not right now.

You can't just say "well, they're not organized", since there are clearly reasons why they aren't organized. This is a game that promotes organization, so why is it that the itani are not?

1. As Crip wrote, the SAF was built around alpha/beta testers, people who have demonstrated a love of this game. Does this kind of framework exist for an itani organization?

2. Swarming is a problem no matter how you look at it or who does it. As soon as a 2v1 battle becomes impossible for the underdog based on equipment, there is a serious issue. And of course the losing side is going to take up these kind of measures when they can't win any other kind of battle.

Missiles were rebalanced, but everything is heavier now. Gems are quite balanced, but dodging the proximity of the swarms is tough. It wasn't even strictly easy before the rebalance, I couldn't dodge more than 2 in the air at one time. But being able to dodge 2 would let me get in close and take my chances till the third one came and I'd boost for a lil bit.

3. It's very easy to suggest the tactics that itani SHOULD be using. And very difficult to get Itani to take them up on a large scale, owing to the lack of organization

lets think about this and find a way for neat, prolonged, heated wars to take place, which is, what I think, everyone is hoping for.
Jan 17, 2005 Spellcast link
martin.mac.au -oops. sorry about that, saw the word mac and my brain turned off apparently. post edited above

As to the UIT that joined, well, you will have that. No matter his reason for wanting to join, he didnt just "join", he made an effort to be noticed and proved he had something to offer. not everyone gets an invite.

ok, shape, you make some good points. and i'll address the last one first.

"-lets think about this and find a way for neat, prolonged, heated wars to take place, which is, what I think, everyone is hoping for.-"

I personally feel that slowing the transports WAY down, and increasing the convoy warning from 5 to 10 minutes would help with this. Here are my reasons:
-more time to plan attacks and organize people to get a coordinated effort.
-less time on the turbo means more time in close maneuver actually in combat, it's almost impossible to actually fight at turbo speeds, the only firing position is from directly behind.

As for #3, I have been thinking about it, and unfortunately there isnt a good solution to it. The only thing that would work would be if a small group of vets started itani characters to provide a backbone for the itani CtC, and helped to organize and train more itani noobs. I've been considering this, but as you can imagine i'm kinda unexcited about throwing away 3 months of character building.

#2 theres nothing to comment on, and as for #1 obviously not. I dont know what happened that 90% of the serco vets came on to pay to play but most of the itani ones didn't.
Jan 17, 2005 Soulless1 link
Just wanted to apologise (sorta) cos i think i was one of those swarmers you keep talking bout (yeah we're the scum of the earth, us).
But no more! Finally (good timing really) i have gained enough corvus standing to be able to base myself there (i can now get basic variants and such) and therefore i will be able to take proper PvP orientated ships! Before i have mostly been at the CtC cos i was trading in the area (corvus to get the standing) and wanted to join in. Therefore i was in my centaur with 1 swarm, 1 gemini and 1 concussion mine launcher. I have these for when i am trading and just sort of tagged along when i found the CtC action nearby. Never used a hog but i did hear roguelazer complain the other night about not sticking around with all these spammers :P

Anywho - tis no more! I can stay in and around corvus now and will be using proper fighters.

Amusingly enough the only person i have every really damaged with my swarms was Niki who i basically rammed the other night. This was then followed by me being shot to death seconds later - im not quite sure why, probably to do with the 56k connection, but i couldn't seem to move to the side to dodge at all - just kept going straight. Oh well, at least i did SOMETHING :P

Lastly, i 100% agree with what spellcast was saying about slowing the transport down and warning earlier - it would give much more opportunity for fun fights and would mean you could take along ships that don't *have* to have infiniturbo! Would even enable us SAF to do the 'CtC in buses' week that was suggested elsewhere on the forums! :)
Jan 17, 2005 Apex link
Beolach wrote:
"As for people leaving because it's not fun for them anymore, well, if it's not fun then of course there's no reason to stay. But if you're tying your 'having fun' to 'winning,' and stopping because you keep losing, then I'm going to point out that if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the precipitate (chemistry joke there, laugh even if you don't understand it)."

you did catch me on my mood there. You're totally right. Although that doesn't change the fact that most people have more of an incentive to keep fighting if they can taste even a little victory.

Borb has joined the Itani nation, at least for now, and I believe he's willing to help the few of us itani combatants to train the average player.

Overcomming the odds is an adrenaline rush, though many times it's bittersweet. sure I can say i've survived an attack of 10 against me, and taken out 2 serco myself, but I have nothing to take home from that CTC attack, other than this story.
Jan 17, 2005 wylfing link
CrippledPidgeon - Thanks for a response that was not delivered in all caps. I certainly do -not- want anyone to hold back, stop attacking, fly an EC-88, or take any other handicap. I also totally agree that the Itani efforts have basically no organization whatsoever, and this really hurts them.

Many of the items I stated were directed at how little the Itani vets do to organize and teach the newcomers. There's no Serco fault there.
Jan 17, 2005 entropyjones link
I think that having 3 factions was a mistake. If you have two you have a much better chance of having fair teams on each side, atleast occasionally.

But with 3 factions in these CTC battles, one of which doesn't even really get anything for a win by either side (UIT) your kind of asking for this sort of trouble.

Still though, there's a lot to be said about team work and dedication. If Itani is losing because they are to demoralized to even try, that is there fault. If that is truely the problem then the Itani need better leadership.
Jan 17, 2005 skystrider link
When I was a boy, a Serco warrior callled Lin showed me how to fight, how to dodge, and how to shoot. One day when I am good enough, I hope to be among the best the Serco Dominion can muster, and fight alongside my brothers and sisters, against the despised Itani. Now, I hear that the Itani are tiring of the fight, such are their losses. This saddens me. I hope that they are training their young pilots well, so that there is someone left for me to fight, when my day of glory comes. May the Lady Serco grant our enemies the courage to fight, so that I may gain honour through battle!
Jan 17, 2005 harvestmouse link
"If they stick it out, you guys might be right, it might turn around and become balanced. IF they stick it out. You're asking these players to tough out a shitty game experience for a long while."

odd thing is, I think the serco players are better and more organized, because they've had to tough out a lot...

far as I know, this rarely happens: we're talking about an "advantage" a nation has that is not very concrete--it's not the agile valk, the greater number of players, portrayal in backstory--more like a mindset, perhaps.

why does it happen? maybe serco players are more experienced because through the recent past, they've had to deal with harsher odds. smaller nation, weaker specials, fodder for itani, blah... if a serco is still playing as a serco today, the serco is probably pretty darn determined and experienced, as well as closer to teammates. I'm sure the itani can pull into the lead and find ways to frustrate serco effort; itani still have plenty going on for them.

the only way to hand a mindset or experience to other players is to teach every person you come across how to fight, how to coordinate, regardless of nation.

Vendetta is a hard game, but the reward for gaining a bit of skill is awesome; to get there involves lots of trial/error/death though, so maybe first thing to tell new players is that they should not be phased out by death...

ok. enough rambling. I just think the itani should keep trying, because when they win, victory will never've tasted so sweet =D
Jan 17, 2005 yodaofborg link
One thing that has not been stated...

I chose red, not serco...

...But if serco=red, thats where i will be...

[edit]

My sound we come to take over
M.C. you better look over your shoulder
Yea we know we on and on,Oh well now

Nuff ah dem ah come an dem ah try dog we out,
Born down pill we are the ruffneck scouts
Music we make to make the crowd jump up
Crowd get hyped explode and erupt
Blend up the Regga metal punk hip-hop
Unity sound killer groove non stop
In ah fe dis pit only the strong will survive
Strength and power ago keep dem alive

My sound we come to take over
M.C. you better look over your shoulder
Yea we know we on and on,Oh well now
Serco we in ah you area
Bring the raucous you know we superior
yer you know we on and on

Nobody gets out of dis ya pit alive
Nobody no body gets out alive
Nobody gets out of dis ya pit alive
Nobody no body gets out alive
Nobody gets out of dis ya pit alive
Come on follow me 1 and 2 and 6 and 7 and 43 and
Nobody gets out of dis ya pit alive

Some ah dem ah come an dem ah try flex with dis
Show dem the ragga punk power and watch dem head twist
Sting tile a scorpion buzz like an E
Full force of fist it ago drop plenty
This is what we want and you have got to know
If you think you're hard star
Come an have a go

My sound we come to take over
M.C. you better look over your shoulder
Yea we know we on and on,Oh well now
Serco we in ah you area
Bring the raucous you know we superior
yer you know we on and on...

Yeah, who cares? its about attitude.
Jan 17, 2005 Bobsin link
this thread has inspired me to write a real short something. it'll be in the rp forum if interested.

as for the issue at hand. one important factor being left out is the impact of pirates in ctc. there are those that sell the cargo for profit. and in all honestly when i make an offer to sell it i am mostly met with willing serco allies. no itani has ever approached me to buy said cargo.

as for any itani noobs who are reading this, stick it out. i've lost many a ship to gain my reputation. it is being agenst the odds that has made this game great for me. most of my early deaths were at the hands of an itani pilot named shape. it is the simple hope that one day i might kill him that i continue to hone my skills. and for that, i fight.

so if you believe in your nation, if you believe in the glory of winning ctc, above all if you believe in a fun time... fight.