Forums » General
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Might as well reiterate: When you pirate/grief people, driving them away from the game for your 'legit fun', you keep the player base at its very low level. Publishers see that small playerbase and think that the game doesn't appeal or is too hard. They don't buy it. Your 'legit fun' might keep happening for a while but it will kill this game.
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Last I checked, Counterstrike is/was one of the most successful online games--period. Yet you people rant and rave about "Counterstrikers." How does such behavior hurt its community? It seems large enough to me!
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I have nothing against pirating, so long as you make some effort to explain wtf you just did to the newb you killed (Simple pirate bind takes care of this). I don't and probably will never understand griefing, or the way players like to say, "That's it, I'm going to grief you dry." How the hell does that do ANYTHING but hurt the game?
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I cannot condone extended griefing. If I attack someone or vice versa, and they die, and they start cussing at me, I may grief them until they either apologize or log off. However, the next time I see them in-game I generally have forgotten about it and won't grief them. "Extended griefing" is when you attack someone whenever you see them, every single time. Think of Phoenix vs me, if I were a n00b and couldn't defend myself. Most extended griefing is sometimes in part due to the griefee's attitude "Wtf you moron you're going to die...." The natural response is, "Oh yeah? I'll enjoy this!"
There probably haven't been 20 people that have left the game due to pirating. If they have, well, they suck. Pirating is a part of the game, and if they can't handle that, they can't handle being a beta-tester. (If you think that a predictable action that reduces your money is bad, then what happens when something unexplainable does that?) We probably lose a lot of people who come on and start screaming "HOW DO I GET OUT OF 1/2/3????????????????????" Instead of worrying about pirating, how about we put a tutorial into the game that shows people the way things work, a la X-Wing.
Any talk of a small player base/people leaving/etc. is purely speculative, and while you can count people that have left (probably only on two hands), you cannot justifiably say that people are leaving en masse due to their dying. Again, if you can't handle it psychologically, go get help.
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I'll touch back on the essence of a game. The problem with shoot-em-up games is that both people are playing for enjoyment, and only one person can have the fun of killing the other. Anyone go download the UT2K3 demo if you've never played it, and immediately hop online. You'll get owned--over, and over, and over. The insane teleport-frag/etc. caused me to lose interest real fast. Now, does UT2K3 have gamer population problems? No. Again, a very successful game. But the problem still persists. You and I both play for fun, and only one of us gets the fun of killing the other. Many times just trying to kill another person is fun, like just trying to trade is fun, whether or not you actually complete it, due to pirates. So any game that has destruction will inherently be "unfun" or someone at some point in the game.
Might as well reiterate: When you pirate/grief people, driving them away from the game for your 'legit fun', you keep the player base at its very low level. Publishers see that small playerbase and think that the game doesn't appeal or is too hard. They don't buy it. Your 'legit fun' might keep happening for a while but it will kill this game.
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Last I checked, Counterstrike is/was one of the most successful online games--period. Yet you people rant and rave about "Counterstrikers." How does such behavior hurt its community? It seems large enough to me!
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I have nothing against pirating, so long as you make some effort to explain wtf you just did to the newb you killed (Simple pirate bind takes care of this). I don't and probably will never understand griefing, or the way players like to say, "That's it, I'm going to grief you dry." How the hell does that do ANYTHING but hurt the game?
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I cannot condone extended griefing. If I attack someone or vice versa, and they die, and they start cussing at me, I may grief them until they either apologize or log off. However, the next time I see them in-game I generally have forgotten about it and won't grief them. "Extended griefing" is when you attack someone whenever you see them, every single time. Think of Phoenix vs me, if I were a n00b and couldn't defend myself. Most extended griefing is sometimes in part due to the griefee's attitude "Wtf you moron you're going to die...." The natural response is, "Oh yeah? I'll enjoy this!"
There probably haven't been 20 people that have left the game due to pirating. If they have, well, they suck. Pirating is a part of the game, and if they can't handle that, they can't handle being a beta-tester. (If you think that a predictable action that reduces your money is bad, then what happens when something unexplainable does that?) We probably lose a lot of people who come on and start screaming "HOW DO I GET OUT OF 1/2/3????????????????????" Instead of worrying about pirating, how about we put a tutorial into the game that shows people the way things work, a la X-Wing.
Any talk of a small player base/people leaving/etc. is purely speculative, and while you can count people that have left (probably only on two hands), you cannot justifiably say that people are leaving en masse due to their dying. Again, if you can't handle it psychologically, go get help.
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I'll touch back on the essence of a game. The problem with shoot-em-up games is that both people are playing for enjoyment, and only one person can have the fun of killing the other. Anyone go download the UT2K3 demo if you've never played it, and immediately hop online. You'll get owned--over, and over, and over. The insane teleport-frag/etc. caused me to lose interest real fast. Now, does UT2K3 have gamer population problems? No. Again, a very successful game. But the problem still persists. You and I both play for fun, and only one of us gets the fun of killing the other. Many times just trying to kill another person is fun, like just trying to trade is fun, whether or not you actually complete it, due to pirates. So any game that has destruction will inherently be "unfun" or someone at some point in the game.
Vendetta isn't an FPS. It's also not in beta yet, 'cause it doesn't have a publisher.
So far, I've introduced four people to Vendetta. One has stuck with it, the rest leaving because they couldn't trade without getting summarily destroyed, usually without any explanation, and they got bored of botting. The key is that they couldn't progress due to constantly being killed. They've all played FPSs and RPGs, and they took my word that this game was awesome. Now they don't play because of our community. If my 1/4 ratio is applicable across the board then we have a problem.
I'm not against pirating. I'm trying to point out that this "kill 'em all" attitude, while fine once the game becomes a game, does nothing but damage the prospects of this 'test' ever becoming a game.
So far, I've introduced four people to Vendetta. One has stuck with it, the rest leaving because they couldn't trade without getting summarily destroyed, usually without any explanation, and they got bored of botting. The key is that they couldn't progress due to constantly being killed. They've all played FPSs and RPGs, and they took my word that this game was awesome. Now they don't play because of our community. If my 1/4 ratio is applicable across the board then we have a problem.
I'm not against pirating. I'm trying to point out that this "kill 'em all" attitude, while fine once the game becomes a game, does nothing but damage the prospects of this 'test' ever becoming a game.
SirCamps: It actually goes: "So, if I put down my sword, you'll put down your rock, and we'll kill each other like civilized men?"
(I don't actually have anything intelligent to add to this debate, but I love that movie and that quote :) ).
(I don't actually have anything intelligent to add to this debate, but I love that movie and that quote :) ).
I TRADE AND DEFEND EXCLUSIVELY...I HAVE BEEN PIRATED 3 TIMES AND GRIEFED 7 TIMES...I AM NOT CRYING OR LEAVING!!!
There are pirates and there are griefers. Pirates attack anything they can for a profit. Griefers attack anything they can. If you make it unprofitable for a pirate, you will not be a victim.
An instruction I give to n00bs the very first chance they give me is, DON'T leave 12, 6 or 4 without 1) being able to defend yourself or 2) being able to afford getting killed and losing everything you have with you.
If that isn't plain enough, then it is their problem.
I am a firm believer that at this juncture, pirates are necessary to keep the game interesting. Griefers are not however. Homicidal maniacs who roam just to kill or even kill while trading because the oppertunity presents itself are dispicable and rules or no rules/because they are able to do so, is horse hockey!
NOOBS WHO ARE READING THIS...STAY IN HOME OR ADJACENT SECTORS UNTIL YOU CAN DEFEND YOURSELF OR CAN AFFORD TO LOSE WHATEVER YOU HAVE TAKEN WITH YOU. < PERIOD :)
There are pirates and there are griefers. Pirates attack anything they can for a profit. Griefers attack anything they can. If you make it unprofitable for a pirate, you will not be a victim.
An instruction I give to n00bs the very first chance they give me is, DON'T leave 12, 6 or 4 without 1) being able to defend yourself or 2) being able to afford getting killed and losing everything you have with you.
If that isn't plain enough, then it is their problem.
I am a firm believer that at this juncture, pirates are necessary to keep the game interesting. Griefers are not however. Homicidal maniacs who roam just to kill or even kill while trading because the oppertunity presents itself are dispicable and rules or no rules/because they are able to do so, is horse hockey!
NOOBS WHO ARE READING THIS...STAY IN HOME OR ADJACENT SECTORS UNTIL YOU CAN DEFEND YOURSELF OR CAN AFFORD TO LOSE WHATEVER YOU HAVE TAKEN WITH YOU. < PERIOD :)
I rarely, if ever post to this message board, but have been an active player of Vendetta since day one of the public beta, approximately two years ago. To date I have brought in three other players: my eleven year old son, my wife, and her father. That is three generations playing this game, often all at the same time.
All of us have had gripes about pirates and griefers from time to time, but all of us continue to play and enjoy this game, especially as we can see it grow and improve over time. Pirating and griefing is NOT any worse now than any time in the past. I used to whine myself back in the early days about being griefed, before my wife pointed out that I had gone looking for trouble, and simply didn't enjoy the outcome of my unprovoked attacks (having been repeatedly killed by players who turned out to be better than me, despite their low score!).
RelayeR's instructions to n00bs are identical to the ones my wife and I gave our son over a year ago: don't leave your home sector unless you can defend yourself or you can afford to lose your ship and cargo. This should be told to ALL n00bs!
I don't believe that people are leaving in droves because of pirating and griefing. If they are, then they haven't called upon their nation to help defend them, as I have found that many people generously come swiftly to your aid if merely asked NICELY. However, most n00bs never ask, or worse, swear up a storm AFTER they've been killed repeatedly.
The best time to get help with a fight (in all aspects of gaming and life) is DURING or BEFORE the fight. If you can't fight and have no social skills to form friendships, then I suggest avoiding conflict at all costs, which is not very hard in this game. Just the other night I flew from 12 to 18 and back with a bounty over 5000 and didn't encounter a single pirate. I think that the problems of piracy have been over-hyped by a few players. Please let me know if my experiences have been out of the norm. Sorry for ranting.
-Vader
-Red Jester
All of us have had gripes about pirates and griefers from time to time, but all of us continue to play and enjoy this game, especially as we can see it grow and improve over time. Pirating and griefing is NOT any worse now than any time in the past. I used to whine myself back in the early days about being griefed, before my wife pointed out that I had gone looking for trouble, and simply didn't enjoy the outcome of my unprovoked attacks (having been repeatedly killed by players who turned out to be better than me, despite their low score!).
RelayeR's instructions to n00bs are identical to the ones my wife and I gave our son over a year ago: don't leave your home sector unless you can defend yourself or you can afford to lose your ship and cargo. This should be told to ALL n00bs!
I don't believe that people are leaving in droves because of pirating and griefing. If they are, then they haven't called upon their nation to help defend them, as I have found that many people generously come swiftly to your aid if merely asked NICELY. However, most n00bs never ask, or worse, swear up a storm AFTER they've been killed repeatedly.
The best time to get help with a fight (in all aspects of gaming and life) is DURING or BEFORE the fight. If you can't fight and have no social skills to form friendships, then I suggest avoiding conflict at all costs, which is not very hard in this game. Just the other night I flew from 12 to 18 and back with a bounty over 5000 and didn't encounter a single pirate. I think that the problems of piracy have been over-hyped by a few players. Please let me know if my experiences have been out of the norm. Sorry for ranting.
-Vader
-Red Jester
Vader, you have a point, and its true to a certain limit as well.
For example you are recognised as a Vet, So it means you are generally not attacked by inexperianced pirates and greifers.
Im also noticing i get left alone, But play as another charictor that people dont know, and I get the stalking, the griefing and the pirates.
After a while they figure out that its only going to cost them money by attacking me, So they leave me alone.
Im ussally a quiet player, So attention isnt drawn to me, and I like to chat privatly with other plays about diffrent aspects of the game, including techniques for various things.
A lot of the time, my first experiance with a newbie will be him swearing in main chat, complaining about death, or just generally being n00bish.
Then i read the forum and sure enough complains.
And the player being told the same things ive seen over and over.
Do i think we can fix the n00bs problem? No.
However i will admit, ive been there more then once, I learnt and moved on. I think its more about taking the time to explain that death is something even the best players live with. Accept it and move on. Learn from the mistakes that were made, instead of slaging off an entire team and making more enemys. Or abuseing the indervidual and having his mates go and kill you, or getting griefed for a few hours.
Anyway, I take the time to explain to them, even tho a few wont listern, best thing is they ussally just quit, So we dont see them again.
And the others that do listern tend to stay and learn. They end up becoming effective players and even better team mates.
Also, keeping on topic lol,
Most pirates dont bother killing the same user over and over, they want them to have enough money to keep trading, its like havesting a crop for example, you dont sell all the seeds, you keep enough so that you can grow your next crop.
For example you are recognised as a Vet, So it means you are generally not attacked by inexperianced pirates and greifers.
Im also noticing i get left alone, But play as another charictor that people dont know, and I get the stalking, the griefing and the pirates.
After a while they figure out that its only going to cost them money by attacking me, So they leave me alone.
Im ussally a quiet player, So attention isnt drawn to me, and I like to chat privatly with other plays about diffrent aspects of the game, including techniques for various things.
A lot of the time, my first experiance with a newbie will be him swearing in main chat, complaining about death, or just generally being n00bish.
Then i read the forum and sure enough complains.
And the player being told the same things ive seen over and over.
Do i think we can fix the n00bs problem? No.
However i will admit, ive been there more then once, I learnt and moved on. I think its more about taking the time to explain that death is something even the best players live with. Accept it and move on. Learn from the mistakes that were made, instead of slaging off an entire team and making more enemys. Or abuseing the indervidual and having his mates go and kill you, or getting griefed for a few hours.
Anyway, I take the time to explain to them, even tho a few wont listern, best thing is they ussally just quit, So we dont see them again.
And the others that do listern tend to stay and learn. They end up becoming effective players and even better team mates.
Also, keeping on topic lol,
Most pirates dont bother killing the same user over and over, they want them to have enough money to keep trading, its like havesting a crop for example, you dont sell all the seeds, you keep enough so that you can grow your next crop.
Having read through the various arguments in this thread i find that i agree with both sides to a point. I would like to make a simple observation however.
While pirating is indeed a good part of this game, I feel that it does drive off the new players before they have a chance to learn to enjoy vendetta. I also have a solution for this that does not involve existing players changing their actions.
Devs, please place a link to the manual and a second link to a page of tips on the create a new character screen. The text could appear before you choose your nation and read something like the following.
"If this is your first time entering the vendetta test, it is highly suggested that you review the hints and tips from our players linked below and click here to read the manual. This test is still in an incomplete form, if you have any comments sugestions on ways to improve the game, please post them on the mesageboards at http://vendetta.guildsoftware.com"
The tips page would be a short list of suggestions drawn up by the community like
"dont leave your home sectors untill you can afford to loose what you have"
"remember to use the t key to chat"
"this is a docking bay (include a screenshot), press enter to dock" [I hear the question of 'how do i dock' at least once every day that i play vendetta]
"as a quick way to get some starting cash, collect the cargo that has been dropped in your nation sectors" [maybe include a screenshot of a cargo canister]
and so on and so forth.
This way the new players have some idea of what they are getting into, recieve a few pieces of wisdom from those who have been playing for a while, and get a link to the messageboards so that they can get a deeper look into the community.
While pirating is indeed a good part of this game, I feel that it does drive off the new players before they have a chance to learn to enjoy vendetta. I also have a solution for this that does not involve existing players changing their actions.
Devs, please place a link to the manual and a second link to a page of tips on the create a new character screen. The text could appear before you choose your nation and read something like the following.
"If this is your first time entering the vendetta test, it is highly suggested that you review the hints and tips from our players linked below and click here to read the manual. This test is still in an incomplete form, if you have any comments sugestions on ways to improve the game, please post them on the mesageboards at http://vendetta.guildsoftware.com"
The tips page would be a short list of suggestions drawn up by the community like
"dont leave your home sectors untill you can afford to loose what you have"
"remember to use the t key to chat"
"this is a docking bay (include a screenshot), press enter to dock" [I hear the question of 'how do i dock' at least once every day that i play vendetta]
"as a quick way to get some starting cash, collect the cargo that has been dropped in your nation sectors" [maybe include a screenshot of a cargo canister]
and so on and so forth.
This way the new players have some idea of what they are getting into, recieve a few pieces of wisdom from those who have been playing for a while, and get a link to the messageboards so that they can get a deeper look into the community.
Excellent idea Spellcast...I would add one more tidbit to the above:
"This game test engine is open to all ages and genders...verbal abuse will not be tolerated by the community or the developers."
Some of the verbal abuse by persons who have been pirated recently would get them fired from just about any job in the world! :)
"This game test engine is open to all ages and genders...verbal abuse will not be tolerated by the community or the developers."
Some of the verbal abuse by persons who have been pirated recently would get them fired from just about any job in the world! :)
Newbs leave vendetta because they just spent the last two hours getting some money and buying some nice ships only to have someone with a big ego log on and decide that they need boost their self esteem by killing a newb (sad) and after the fifth kill the newb ends up with no money, gets bored and decides vendetta isn't worth his/her time. They then recommend their friends not to bother with vendetta because of the rather pointless experience they had.
It isn't nessecary to kill everyone you see and there is no justification for doing so.
It isn't nessecary to kill everyone you see and there is no justification for doing so.
There are two solutions to this:
A)(Less likely, but better) A more effective player-based antipiracy guild is created, right now DSG doesn't cut it and [SDF] pirates. Heck, we need a cross nation defense force...
B)Make people with a experience below (Insert value here) cannot damage players or be damaged by players. Specifically we can go for a small value, (1000-2000?)
A)(Less likely, but better) A more effective player-based antipiracy guild is created, right now DSG doesn't cut it and [SDF] pirates. Heck, we need a cross nation defense force...
B)Make people with a experience below (Insert value here) cannot damage players or be damaged by players. Specifically we can go for a small value, (1000-2000?)
Hunter Alpha yours is pure speculation. It happened to all of us!! When I came back in 3.0 after leaving in 2.8, I was griefed and lost 150k (about 500k in today's money). You can thank Furball for that. I was homed in 7 and died over, and over, and over, and over. I didn't get bored with losing my nice ships and money, and decide Vendetta wasn't my thing. I decided to get even, and took to trading in a heavy ship (mines took out furry more than once) and got enough money back. Soon, I was challenging people like Blaster to put up a good fight. I didn't wimp out and leave, I decided to gain the skills it took to beat the people who caused me so much frustration. I can personally vouch that a griefed person doesn't lose heart.
Look at UncleDave, he attacked "and" over and over. When "and" got better, he became a very capable Itani pilot that had a chip on his shoulder when it came to Serco pilots. Griefed people don't leave, they desire to get even.
Look at UncleDave, he attacked "and" over and over. When "and" got better, he became a very capable Itani pilot that had a chip on his shoulder when it came to Serco pilots. Griefed people don't leave, they desire to get even.
Hunter, SirCamps. you are both potentially correct and both wrong at the same time. newbies and people who are griefed dont all react the same way. some of them do leave. some of them learn how to fight back, some of them just hang out in the home sectors and bot. I will agree with Hunter that since this is a test, not a finished game, griefing of any sort should probably be discouraged. On the same note however, the Devs have far more important things on tehir mind, (finances, missions etc) so it's just going to remain as it is right now. I also tend to believe that the situation is self correcting. once missions are implemented the "I'm gonna kill everything in sight" mentality will fade quite significantly since only the people who truly get their kicks from killing others will play that way. A lot of the griefing right now is probably from boredom. People need something to do to keep themselves occupied, so they start fights, pirate for the hell of it etc etc.
Pirogoeth2 The whole score thing has been hashed over before as a potential solution, the major problem with it is that then everyone has a character that they use for trading who never gains any score, and they just transfer the money. at the same time the pirates just create new characters every 4 to 5 days to keep their score down, and the problem remains unchanged other than a lot of tedious money x-fers.
As to an anti-pirate guild. the primary problem with any guiilds right now is that there is no effective way to enforce rules within a guild. You cant prevent a player from creating a character tagged with a guild mark even if they arent a member. Also there is no way to remove someone from your guild if they disobey rules.
AS for the SDF pirating. . . .
I scincerely hope they havent been. If they have then I apologize to whomever they pirated I havent been online much lately and most of the pilots tend to be entusiastic and uhh excitable. Catch me next time I'm on and fill me in on the details. I'll take care of it if i can.
/EDIT please do not reply to the portion of this post concerning the SDF in this thread. start one in RP if you want to argue about the effectiveness of the SDF and it's policies
Pirogoeth2 The whole score thing has been hashed over before as a potential solution, the major problem with it is that then everyone has a character that they use for trading who never gains any score, and they just transfer the money. at the same time the pirates just create new characters every 4 to 5 days to keep their score down, and the problem remains unchanged other than a lot of tedious money x-fers.
As to an anti-pirate guild. the primary problem with any guiilds right now is that there is no effective way to enforce rules within a guild. You cant prevent a player from creating a character tagged with a guild mark even if they arent a member. Also there is no way to remove someone from your guild if they disobey rules.
AS for the SDF pirating. . . .
I scincerely hope they havent been. If they have then I apologize to whomever they pirated I havent been online much lately and most of the pilots tend to be entusiastic and uhh excitable. Catch me next time I'm on and fill me in on the details. I'll take care of it if i can.
/EDIT please do not reply to the portion of this post concerning the SDF in this thread. start one in RP if you want to argue about the effectiveness of the SDF and it's policies
I have witnessed [SDF] piracy and random homicide three times now. I have yet to find a guild or group that actually acts the way it says it does.
Camps, you, Evhun and the other reddies have probably consumed 10million worth of my valks, yet I'm still here. However, for each one of us that perservers through that, 4 quit or otherwise decide this game isn't worth their time. The only MMORPGs that flourish seem to be those that require only mindless level treadmilling; I think I can see why. To learn this game takes actual practice and dedication. Instead of clicking the 'attack' button, you have to learn to fly and shoot. However, the game lacks the FPS element of having a level money/equipment playing field every ten or so minutes. The griefers in this game are gods compared to the skill level the average newb will have even a month or two after they start.
It doesn't help that pirates keep them from ever developing their skills. To learn to fight you have to fight, and that takes money. I learned the basics before the reset, when money didn't matter. Now it does, and newbs don't have the luxury of dieing over and over and over again just to learn the nuances of gauss vs tachyon vs sunflare.
As much as it may kill the fun for the elite few, we need to foster the growth of the playerbase by making this game as newb friendly as possible. If we don't it will end up in the dustbin with the rest of the awesome games that never got published, and I really don't want to see that.
Camps, you, Evhun and the other reddies have probably consumed 10million worth of my valks, yet I'm still here. However, for each one of us that perservers through that, 4 quit or otherwise decide this game isn't worth their time. The only MMORPGs that flourish seem to be those that require only mindless level treadmilling; I think I can see why. To learn this game takes actual practice and dedication. Instead of clicking the 'attack' button, you have to learn to fly and shoot. However, the game lacks the FPS element of having a level money/equipment playing field every ten or so minutes. The griefers in this game are gods compared to the skill level the average newb will have even a month or two after they start.
It doesn't help that pirates keep them from ever developing their skills. To learn to fight you have to fight, and that takes money. I learned the basics before the reset, when money didn't matter. Now it does, and newbs don't have the luxury of dieing over and over and over again just to learn the nuances of gauss vs tachyon vs sunflare.
As much as it may kill the fun for the elite few, we need to foster the growth of the playerbase by making this game as newb friendly as possible. If we don't it will end up in the dustbin with the rest of the awesome games that never got published, and I really don't want to see that.
Actually Starfisher if this were a more finished product there would be areas for the new players to learn where they would have a chance to hone their skills before having to deal with the experienced players. However the current test universe is just too small to support that at this time. Thus a simple tips page and link to the manual when you create a new character would at least give the new players a warning to remain in the nation sectors and pick up some skills before venturing out to loose their money in the wider universe.
I do tend to agree that we need something for the more experienced players to do to alleviate boredome however.. missions will help a lot IMO.
I do tend to agree that we need something for the more experienced players to do to alleviate boredome however.. missions will help a lot IMO.
Ok, I will admit that not everyone will react the same way but it is a common reaction. One thing that most people seem to forget is that we are guests of the devs and we should act as such.
Ok, I will admit that not everyone will react the same way but it is a common reaction. One thing that most people seem to forget is that we are guests of the devs and that we should act like it.
Ok, I will admit that not everyone will react the same way but it is a common reaction. One thing that most people seem to forget is that we are guests of the devs and we should act as such.
What if trading added to xp, and while under that 1000-2000 cap you couldn't give money? Heck, then some people would need to earn their money.
What if trading added to xp, and while under that 1000-2000 cap you couldn't give money? Heck, then some people would need to earn their money.
I would also like to note, Camps, that you don't always ask to have their cargo dropped.
I would also like to note, Camps, that you don't always ask to have their cargo dropped.
What if trading added to xp, and while under that 1000-2000 cap you couldn't give money? Heck, then some people would need to earn their money.
I would also like to note, Camps, that you don't always ask to have their cargo dropped.
I would also like to note, Camps, that you don't always ask to have their cargo dropped.