This is the beginning of a weekly series of open threads to brainstorm on problems that will potentially face the Vendetta community when the final game is released.

This week's subject is General Physical Misanthropy

---=READ THIS!=---
Let me make something clear from the start. This is about the ravaging, crude hordes that populate the internet in general, and who will storm our proverbial gates the day the game is opened, looking to make our pretty little universe just like the rest of the MMORPG world. By this I mean out-of-character, clique-heavy and ridden with cruel and criminal behavior. This isn't about any one person or group. This isn't even about our community. If you think our community is Bad (tm), you haven't seen Bad(tm) yet. This thread is about creating a list of potential problems, so that they may be fixed at an early point in the code, and not patched haphazardly at the last minute. Let me reiterate: This is not a discussion about us, or our community. This is not to become a flamewar, so let's get it out: DO NOT use players from our community, current or former, as examples. EVER. Don't dance around names, dropping hints either. You're not fooling anyone. This doesn't mean you can't reference the game universe at any point in it's development, just don't name names, or even infer them. Just don't do it, and we'll stay on target. If someone does, myself included, just ignore the post. Don't respond to it. If they really want it said, they'll find a way to say it that's acceptable in the context of this Brainstorm.

Oh, and one more thing: Stay on topic. This isn't about technical issues, or exploits or anything else. Those will be addressed in future Brainstorms. If you have a C.H.U.D. in the archives (as I do), put him on a leash and make him behave for this thread, at least.
---=Thanks!=---

Okay, first off, let's begin easy:

General Physical Misanthropy. By this, I mean Piracy, Newbie-killing, thrill-killing, hounding (repeat-killing), etc. Chat-based misanthropy will be addressed later on in a future brainstorm.

My opening statement on Piracy:

Everyone wants to be a pirate, or an outlaw, if just to try it out for a bit. An MMORPG offers perfect fodder for this: An imaginary world with realistic danger, and real people running around living imaginary lives. The trick is that everyone can't be a brigand, or the world becomes a miserable place. This has been repeatedly proven in at least ten popular MMORPG worlds. Many fall to pieces within their first year because everyone simply wants to kill everyone else. A healthy online community needs lawmen as much as any other. The peace must be kept somehow.

/me dons firefighting equipment and walks in the room

A bounty system seems to have the most potential for rewarding law-keeping, but it is based upon the assumption that those who are dead stay that way. In MMORPGs this simply is not true. Once a player dies, they come back in one form or another. Even if their character file is erased (hypothetical situation), the player is the same person. They hold grudges, and once they get back, they're not going to just get on with their life. Instead, they'll go after whoever claimed their bounty. If they have like-minded friends, they'll get together and ride that player out of town on a rail-gun. That's what I'd do, at least. What this breeds is an eternal cycle of player-on-player vengeance, and a tendency to band together for the exclusive purpose of taking down one particularly successful bounty hunter.

If my suspicions are correct, many of your subconscious "victory for the little guy is good" buzzers are going off right now. It's what we're taught from childhood on in most European societies and certainly in the culture of the United States. However, what's never addressed in "The Hare and the Tortoise" (to pick on a tale common to both cultures) is what happens after the race. After the race, Tortoise is drinking a margarita on his patio with some tortoise friends, when in bursts Hare with about ten of his cronies. They proceed to dispense whoop-ass liberally upon Tortoise and his slow-moving buds. This is because humans (shed the anthropomorphism, if you will) are social animals. We form groups instinctually, and most of the time, these are with people who share our beliefs or certain behavioral attributes, like say, for example, strength. If the strong form a group, and the weak form a group, the strong group will kick the crap out of the weak group every chance they get, simply because they can, and the weak group can't stop them. It's the politics of power at the basest level.

What does this Tortoise and Hare stuff all mean to bounty hunting? It means that the cycle goes as follows:

Hare A (H-A) is rampaging around the galaxy.

Tortoise A (T-A) gets lucky and manages to kill H-A, though he isn't near the badass H-A is. It happens every day.

H-A comes back in one form or another(note break with reality at this point, but I digress), and swears revenge upon T-A and all his friends. He gets together with H-B, H-C and H-D and breaks T-A's friends' kneecaps. There's nobody to stop him, and there we have our problem. Bounty Hunting relies upon having a "greater force" present that can intervene on the behalf of the weaker party once the bounty is claimed. In real life, this "Greater Force" is death. There is no death in an MMORPG, only passage to a new life, so there needs to be a substitute for death.

One solution I can think of right off the bat is to have multiple "realms" of space that are totally disconnected from each other. When you create your first character on a given account, you may choose which realm to play in. When your character dies, a check is made against the account. If a player has logged more than, say 15 play-hours in a given realm they are shuffled to another realm. This prevents players from suiciding to get back to their killer's realm. If there were, say 5 realms, it would take 75 play-hours to get back to their original realm, plenty of time for the realm in question to have totally changed in political nature, as MMORPG worlds are apt to do. This system would also aid in compartmentalization of the network, but that's an issue for another Brainstorm.

"Everyone wants to be a pirate, or an outlaw, if just to try it out for a bit. An MMORPG offers perfect fodder for this: An imaginary world with realistic danger, and real people running around living imaginary lives. The trick is that everyone can't be a brigand, or the world becomes a miserable place."

Yeah that sucks. That's why I stopped pirating. Too many lowly pirates around. Too many n00b-pirates. It just sucks.

I agree with both of your posts, but I'm afraid Ku covered everything I wanted to say.

PS-This thread has NO flames! Good job!

Ku, good analogy with the playground culture. The only thing stopping the "bullies" from murdering the weaker kids is the presence of teachers. We need some teachers (law enforcement). Moreover, the law enforcement have to be better than the general public in combat and availability of weapons and ships.

To put it in real-world language: S.W.A.T. teams have access to M4A1 carbines, MP5 submachineguns, SPAS-12 semi/auto shotguns, and supressed sniper rifles. In addition to their arsenal, they have a tremendous amount of training. Any lawbreaker is bound to have a pistol, or at the most, a sawed-off shotgun, and any training he might have would be "questionable."

How do we balance this in the realm of Vendetta? Firstly, the "police" must have ships superior to those of the average criminal. Even "special" ships available at black markets should have some drawbacks, as they're inherently inferior in quality (hence the word "black market"). Secondly, the "police" must have better weapons. However we end up obtaining weapons, whether just by buying them, or gaining a weapons license, the "police" should have better weapons.

The third aspect is training, and this could involve an AI/Player approach. Either we have a wicked AI, or find a way to recruit the experienced players into police guilds.

Some problems: What's the motivation? The "Helping the little guy" mentality usually isn't enough. Money? Why have it? What would you do with it? Build a fleet? And do what with it? It'd only be a matter of time until something legally gray happened.

In short, I really don't have the end, but the means (which most of us have as well). The police, whoever they are, will have to have superior hardware and training compared to the criminals', but how to give it without corrupting the police or making them a target to roleplaying criminals (getting into the police, getting the equipment, then going AWOL) is a problem that remains to be found.

I agree. Selection would be a very difficult thing however.

Exactly, SirCamps. It's our nature to never be satisfied with what we have, and to always seek more of a good thing. Power over others is a good thing. Money is a good thing. Fun is a good thing. Duty is not fun, nor does it make money. It gives some power over others, but only in the right context. While duty and a little pay may be enough for someone in the real world, it's just not satisfying to do the same in an MMORPG. You want to do new things, to have fun. Beyond this sense of duty, the reason policemen are kept from becoming a gang and terrorizing the populace is because the Armed Forces and other federal agencies are present to stop them.

--Slight Digression--
What then, you may ask, keeps the Armed Forces in line in the real world? It's partly the sense of duty, and partly the knowledge that the rest of the military will deal with you harshly, should your sense of duty fail you.
-- End Slight Digression---

An AI police force never runs into these questions of loyalty. They do what they do when they're told to do it. The problem with the A.I. police force is that their intelligence is artificial. They can't see trouble brewing between players in chat and tie this together with the later hounding of one player by the other. A working A.I. police force needs human dispatchers. Giving guides the ability to unleash the Police is better than letting them take direct action because it's guranteed that the Police A.I. will follow the letter of the law. The guides decide when to send in the Police, but cannot directly control their actions. This can also help with accountability, because nobody can argue that the Police patrol started killing him unprovoked. He must have broken the letter of the law somehow (like that giant nuclear missile launcher strapped to the bottom of his ship) if they decide to take action against him. Likewise, if they're sent out unfairly, and he's not doing anything wrong, they won't attack him. For crafty criminals who want to dodge the A.I., a "warrant" system could be implemented.

I'm seeing flashbacks of the Fifth Element.

<police enter sector:> This is a Police Control, Stand down hostilities immediately or prepare to be taken into custody.

<griefer continues to attack, griefee runs and does not fire:> @#$%%@ YOU!!! I'M TEH 1337!!1!

<police kill griefer, griefer is taken into police custody, held in a prison sector for a set amount of time, then released, one "karma" point deducted from record>

What happens when they run out of karma points?

Every NPC in the game attacks them, and players are rewarded a ridiculous sum of money for killing them.

Takes a long time to get that low though. Also, the possibility of NPC Bounty Hunters, (such as in Escape Velocity) that would randomly appear and only attack said player.

Every NPC in the game attacks them, and players are rewarded a ridiculous sum of money for killing them.
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Player A gets his karma to 0, arranges to have player B repeatedly kill him for cash, and they split the money....

This is again a problem with the MMORPG model. People will always be looking for ways to exploit the system. Perhaps to circumvent this exploit, the reward money will be drawn from the affected player's account.

i don't think it'd work to take the money out of the respective user's strongbox.
how about this: it has already been mentioned that there should be a licensing system for weaponry and other equipment.
why not make the accessibility of ships, equipment and stations karma-dependable and, by consequence, a punishment for griefers?
let's take Bob, for example.
if his standing with the itani faction #123 is good (good as in normal), he is allowed to buy and sell cargo, equipment and other stuff there and have general contact with that part of the universe. now imagine a new player has access to all "normal" sectors and stations, but he/she can earn his/her way into special sectors (sorry about the digression).
likewise, if Bob is being an ass and his reputation sinks in a specific region, he will be first limited in his choice of ships and equipment in stations, if he continues to behave badly, he will be unable to dock at stations in certain sectors (he'll get a message ike: "Go away or behave better!"), thus being forced to travel farther away, maybe dock at a pirate station (borrowed the analogy from EV) that's heavily guarded, and if he'd sink really, really low, he wouldn't be able to dock anywhere at all for a set amount of time (except for when Bob dies, he starts out again at the equivalent of tatooine... the planet that is the farthest away form the center of teeming activity).
if he doesn't heed the warnings (every time your karma gets worse, you'd receive different notifications... via e-mail or something), he could get banned entirely from the game for a set amount of time, and if he offended repeatedly, he'd be banned forever (his IP or something, i don't exactly know how it is possible to make sure a specific person can't come back).

a problem with this system would be that if Bob was rueful and wanted to improve his relations with a certain group (karma-wise), what would he have to do to "earn karma points"? i don't know how that'd be possible, maybe by being allowed to train newbs (sort of an academy), then the newbs would be tested on how good the education was they got, then the karma raise would be determined...
just a thought

Well, I assume that such things would be solved by going to a station with an Itani embassy and pleading his case. If he weren't in too deep, he could have probationary docking privelege. However, if he abused this trust, his karma with the Itani would sink lower than before, and he'd be unable to get probationary status again. Each nation would have their own levels of tolerance, as laid out in the table below. Unaligned stations of course let him dock and trade, but their trade prices would not be nearly as lucrative as elsewhere.

Itani Karma Table

::5 God. Oooh.
::4 Hero. Same as Ally, except that player will have a permanent A.I. escort while in Itani space. May take high-sensitivity Itani missions.
::3 Ally. May land and trade nation goods, buy weapons and ships, and take missions for the nation. This player's ship will be defended while in Itani space.
::2 Trustworthy. Can land and trade nation goods or buy weapons, but may not buy ships or take missions for the nation.
::1 Cool. Can land and trade generic goods for nation prices. Cannot buy weapons or ships, nor take missions for the nation.
::0 Neutral. Welcome in certain Itani sectors. May land and buy goods at market prices.
::-1 Shady. Can land and trade in certain sectors, but personal trade tariffs will be imposed.
::-1.5 Probationary. This status may only be granted by an Itani envoy. For all intents and purposes identical to "Shady", with the condition that any suspicious activity will result in an immediate and permanent -2.5 karma shift.
::-2 Untrustworthy. Welcome in Itani space, but may not dock. Any suspicious activity will result in armed escort to the border.
::-3 Criminal. Unwelcome in Itani space. Will be immediately escorted to the border on sight.
::-4 Felon. Player will be fired upon by Itani police and military units in the sector until they, like, die. Government may put out bounty on player.
:: -5 Uh oh... Player=teh d34d.

I like your reputation ctishman. I can't add anything to it at the moment.

Tosh: I disagree with your limitations based on reputation. To keep the game interesting, you _HAVE_ to have shady characters and pirates, just like you have to have law enforcement. Heck, if everyone gets a savior-complex, I might turn pirate just to play the role. That'll involve attacking unarmed enemy transports (traders) and unskilled pilots (newbies). But I don't, because everyone else is, and I play the role of Sgt. Iron-knuckles.

Serco Karma Table


Above 3 (up to 10) are Military Ranks, and are accessible only to those who serve with the Serco Dominion Armed Forces. They get perks like A.I. escorts (depending on rank, anything from a fighter to a battle group of three frigates), discounts on Serco civilian-class ship purchases, and the ability to purchase Serco military-class ships.
::3 Trustworthy. Can land and trade nation and generic goods at regular prices. Can buy Serco civilian-class ships at regular prices and weapons at substantially boosted prices.
::2 Not Bad. Can land and trade nation goods at regular prices. Can buy Serco civilian-class ships at substantially boosted prices. Inquire about weapons, and suffer an immediate -2 to Serco Karma.
::1 Untrustworthy. May dock, and will be sold goods at increased prices. Inquire about ships or weapons, and suffer an immediate -1 to Serco Karma.
::0 Neutral. Will be escorted to the border by most of a battle fleet.
::-1 through -4 Dead. Bounties will be put out on you, and any Serco who sees you has an obligation to his nation and his honor to hunt you down and kill you. This gets old for you really really fast, but it's really, really hard to get out of.

aw Ku, Serco isn't THAT bad... :P
anyway... in reply to SC:
i agree with you. but did you notice i wrote something about the 'heavily guarded pirate station'? so the 'shady' character does indeed have the possibility of docking and repairing. and if he dies too far away from a station he can't dock at, his fault, he'll be transported ways away. have you never watched star wars? in tatooine, all of the scum meets, and you don't live an easy life, you're threatened every second. i mean, do you want to give the pirates peace for pirating? be serious.
btw, if you're Sgt. Iron Knuckles (, SIR!), i should be the lying gentleman in a tux (i.e. diplomat :P).

So, it's like, if someone has really high Serco karma; they're serco and if that same person had really high Neutral karma they'd be neutral, right?
If not, then I think that my idea is a good one :P

PS: I read the "heavily guarded pirate station" as being heavily defended against anyone trying to land, including all pirates.