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Incarnate mentioned he wanted to move VO away from a level based system to ???
One benefit of military service could/should be access to military hardware.
Military service and rank would seem to be a sensible access requirements to military hardware
In the real world driving a semi requires a special licence but it does not allow you to drive a tank.
In VO terms:
89 and the centaur could be positioned as general use ships and require only faction standing to purchase
Combat vessels such as the Centurion and Vulture would only be availible to those who had military experiance.
Valks ,proms and Raptors (?) could require a special test pilot mission for access
Moths could require time in Atlas which would require time in a centaur before being allowed to fly the larger ones (ie. 10 hours flying an atlas before a pilot would be allow to fly an xc ) or they could be switched to require one of the existing trade badges.
The warthog I think is kind of a special case - it is simply too usefull to limited to military only usage but I am not sure how to handle it in a fair and sensible way
Your rational thoughts would be appreciated.
One benefit of military service could/should be access to military hardware.
Military service and rank would seem to be a sensible access requirements to military hardware
In the real world driving a semi requires a special licence but it does not allow you to drive a tank.
In VO terms:
89 and the centaur could be positioned as general use ships and require only faction standing to purchase
Combat vessels such as the Centurion and Vulture would only be availible to those who had military experiance.
Valks ,proms and Raptors (?) could require a special test pilot mission for access
Moths could require time in Atlas which would require time in a centaur before being allowed to fly the larger ones (ie. 10 hours flying an atlas before a pilot would be allow to fly an xc ) or they could be switched to require one of the existing trade badges.
The warthog I think is kind of a special case - it is simply too usefull to limited to military only usage but I am not sure how to handle it in a fair and sensible way
Your rational thoughts would be appreciated.
move this to suggestions : ]
"Valks ,proms and Raptors (?) could require a special test pilot mission for access"
Hmm i disagree: ye don't need to be a test pilot to fly tanks or jets in army, test pilot mission requirement should be reserved fer prototypes only ex X1, Craptor II, proto prom(to be created). And of course all military vessels should be only accessible to nation military personnel (oops losing my potato on that one).
But some hours spent on lesser version ships might be an interesting kind of grinding, ye could split it in training hours and combat hours (in deneb fer example) and required military ranks/badges.
There also should be not only a discussion about Hog but about rag also, some version should be military (rank/badges) specific. (ban it from hive skirmish? force player into more cooperation fer queen hunting?)
-----------------------------------------Off topic threadjacking (faction)-------------------
Then we have minor faction stuff, which should require ye to have a dislike standing with the opposite competitor.
Fer corvus ye should be an outlaw and be required at least dislike from major factions to get it: fer example (i am still opposed to a unaligned/grey/pirate faction fer players unless ye can RP all 13 factions)
CV native faction dislike 1 minor faction dislike
CM 2 major faction dislike (1 native) 2 minor faction dislike
CGH 3 major faction dislike 3 minor faction dislike
-------------------------------------End off topic threadjacking (faction)-------------------
We could had some additional requirements for corvus (i am sure ye wont like it)
CV: 1 bounty on yer head (past collected bounties qualify) and 1 bounty hunter killed in action
CM: 2 bounty on yer head and 1 bounty hunter killed in action
CGH: 3 bounty on yer head and 1 bounty hunter killed in action
Flame well : )
"Valks ,proms and Raptors (?) could require a special test pilot mission for access"
Hmm i disagree: ye don't need to be a test pilot to fly tanks or jets in army, test pilot mission requirement should be reserved fer prototypes only ex X1, Craptor II, proto prom(to be created). And of course all military vessels should be only accessible to nation military personnel (oops losing my potato on that one).
But some hours spent on lesser version ships might be an interesting kind of grinding, ye could split it in training hours and combat hours (in deneb fer example) and required military ranks/badges.
There also should be not only a discussion about Hog but about rag also, some version should be military (rank/badges) specific. (ban it from hive skirmish? force player into more cooperation fer queen hunting?)
-----------------------------------------Off topic threadjacking (faction)-------------------
Then we have minor faction stuff, which should require ye to have a dislike standing with the opposite competitor.
Fer corvus ye should be an outlaw and be required at least dislike from major factions to get it: fer example (i am still opposed to a unaligned/grey/pirate faction fer players unless ye can RP all 13 factions)
CV native faction dislike 1 minor faction dislike
CM 2 major faction dislike (1 native) 2 minor faction dislike
CGH 3 major faction dislike 3 minor faction dislike
-------------------------------------End off topic threadjacking (faction)-------------------
We could had some additional requirements for corvus (i am sure ye wont like it)
CV: 1 bounty on yer head (past collected bounties qualify) and 1 bounty hunter killed in action
CM: 2 bounty on yer head and 1 bounty hunter killed in action
CGH: 3 bounty on yer head and 1 bounty hunter killed in action
Flame well : )
At this point there isnt really anything specific to suggest yet - Just some ideas that need to be kicked around which may lead to some suggestions.
While Corvus happily deals with anyone who has the cash they are not themselves a pirate company - More like a front company for the mob. Being POS with a different faction might cause some concern for Corvus and be reflected in the final price but I doubt it would prevent them from making a sale. (This has been discussed elsewhere) If Corvus had a rivalry or some other negative relationship with a different faction then the situation might be different. Perhaps if someone cared to propose and justify some specific relationship(s) of this type and the Devs gave thier official blessing to it then the requirements your suggesting might make better sense to everyone.
Now since Valent and Axia have an official rivalry then having an Axia POS could prevent sales at Valent stations and vica versa. Having a KOS status might also cause a price reduction for some items at the rival stations.
Having a bounty on your head might give access to a good runner ship from corvus like the greyhound if you were POS with them.
I forgot about the rag - It could be restricted to Military only but a civilian(mining) version would need to be introduced - maybe stripped of its armor and have its thrust cut by a third? Does it have any other non-military usage?
If a military ranking system were in place then rank could be used instead of the test mission. A separate test for each version of the valk and prom might work for now.
BTW - I used the raptor for the UIT ship but I think it would need some serious rework before it could be done this way. The marauder might be better suited for the role.
While Corvus happily deals with anyone who has the cash they are not themselves a pirate company - More like a front company for the mob. Being POS with a different faction might cause some concern for Corvus and be reflected in the final price but I doubt it would prevent them from making a sale. (This has been discussed elsewhere) If Corvus had a rivalry or some other negative relationship with a different faction then the situation might be different. Perhaps if someone cared to propose and justify some specific relationship(s) of this type and the Devs gave thier official blessing to it then the requirements your suggesting might make better sense to everyone.
Now since Valent and Axia have an official rivalry then having an Axia POS could prevent sales at Valent stations and vica versa. Having a KOS status might also cause a price reduction for some items at the rival stations.
Having a bounty on your head might give access to a good runner ship from corvus like the greyhound if you were POS with them.
I forgot about the rag - It could be restricted to Military only but a civilian(mining) version would need to be introduced - maybe stripped of its armor and have its thrust cut by a third? Does it have any other non-military usage?
If a military ranking system were in place then rank could be used instead of the test mission. A separate test for each version of the valk and prom might work for now.
BTW - I used the raptor for the UIT ship but I think it would need some serious rework before it could be done this way. The marauder might be better suited for the role.
There should be a trade off fer any ship in da game, it just doesn't make any sense at all, that with ONE character, ye can BUY every damn freaking ship.
Balance it with ship prices????? Who are ye kidding? Most of ye ninnies have huge amount of monies collected thanks to a broken economy and other game exploits. Unless ye reset all bank accounts after fixing the economy fer real. : p
Corvus IS the MOB.
Trade at Corvus station is a cover fer money laundering.
Do you think they would sell their cutest ships to military dumbasses and other law enforcers to meddle with their hidden activities?
Corvus specific ships should be made to serve their illegal and secret purposes.
Those ships shouldn't even be listed in station unless ye got credentials.
If i have joined the military or if i have enlisted as a bounty hunter, i wont be able to get a corvus ship.
To get corvus ships, ye need to be a trusty and do them favors on a regular basis, let say some dirty werk (missions/badge) that could cost ye one faction (major, minor i don't care, just prove ye got balls) or get yerself a bounty on yer head etc..
Minor factions:
i still think standing is the good way to do it with some modification: ye can get minor faction by doing HS, procurement and other "no risk activities" only up to +600 (admired); Above 600 ye need to get and keep yerself wet. (fer example for axia std go kill some valent, spy and steal secrets, escort a special voy and repel aggressors etc...).
All those minor factions are ferocious competitors after all.
A last one fer da snakes, registering as a bounty hunter, should give you access to da "fatstrat interceptor".
Of course ye should keep doin' missions or collect bounties on a regular basis to stay a BH.
Just make this damn game more dynamic and immersive and not just one weekend of grinding, a life of space quake or a boredom of botting/mining/trading fer dragon collectors or pretty roid admirers.
Balance it with ship prices????? Who are ye kidding? Most of ye ninnies have huge amount of monies collected thanks to a broken economy and other game exploits. Unless ye reset all bank accounts after fixing the economy fer real. : p
Corvus IS the MOB.
Trade at Corvus station is a cover fer money laundering.
Do you think they would sell their cutest ships to military dumbasses and other law enforcers to meddle with their hidden activities?
Corvus specific ships should be made to serve their illegal and secret purposes.
Those ships shouldn't even be listed in station unless ye got credentials.
If i have joined the military or if i have enlisted as a bounty hunter, i wont be able to get a corvus ship.
To get corvus ships, ye need to be a trusty and do them favors on a regular basis, let say some dirty werk (missions/badge) that could cost ye one faction (major, minor i don't care, just prove ye got balls) or get yerself a bounty on yer head etc..
Minor factions:
i still think standing is the good way to do it with some modification: ye can get minor faction by doing HS, procurement and other "no risk activities" only up to +600 (admired); Above 600 ye need to get and keep yerself wet. (fer example for axia std go kill some valent, spy and steal secrets, escort a special voy and repel aggressors etc...).
All those minor factions are ferocious competitors after all.
A last one fer da snakes, registering as a bounty hunter, should give you access to da "fatstrat interceptor".
Of course ye should keep doin' missions or collect bounties on a regular basis to stay a BH.
Just make this damn game more dynamic and immersive and not just one weekend of grinding, a life of space quake or a boredom of botting/mining/trading fer dragon collectors or pretty roid admirers.
Well BT first off I completely agree that no single character should have access to every ship in the game. In fact part of the idea behind this thread is that a players "vocation" be it military,miner,trader or pirate should also affect what ships are availible. A players faction standing should also affect what is availible and also affect the final price.
I know that the pirates would like and should have a special station for pirates only but Corvus is not that station. Corvus is a legit UIT corporation that operates in grey space with looser standards then normal. It is in fact meant for ALL players and is always dockable. Trying to turn Corvus into a pirates only station is not going to work.
I also agree the bounty hunters should also get a special version ship on par to the greyhound.
I know that the pirates would like and should have a special station for pirates only but Corvus is not that station. Corvus is a legit UIT corporation that operates in grey space with looser standards then normal. It is in fact meant for ALL players and is always dockable. Trying to turn Corvus into a pirates only station is not going to work.
I also agree the bounty hunters should also get a special version ship on par to the greyhound.
Ok, if we're discussing changes, here's a major one:
-Trade ships should have no weapons, only turrets, including autoturrets, and equipament ports.
-Multirole ships can use both equipament and weapons.
-Combat ships have weapons-only setup.
So, all space cadets do basic training, then are offered 2 carrers: Logistics and Military.
-Logistics gives you "Trade License" after a 'trade school' and direct access to larger but unarmed ships. Those can carry cargo >=25 cu.
-Military branch leads you back to combat academy, and gives you the "Combat License" to access combat ships, with "pilots' guns". But <25cu cargo.
>Taking one carreer allows one to later return to academy and take 2 extra trainings, first unlocks multirole ships, second unlocks all. So choice results in what type of ships you start with.
Adapting to VO, non-combat ships would have two versions: Multirole and Freighter, where the multirole ports are replaced with Equipament ports, limited only to mining beams, repair guns, scanners, blockers...
Multirole ships are the armed versions of Atlas, Centaurs, Moths, etc., while military ships are Valks, Proms, Hogs, etc.
They have a clear limit of 25cu storage, military ones tend to have little to none storage.
Ship requirements become basically equivalent to Trade/Combat licenses now, but limited to 4 levels, equivalent to Trade/Combat 1,3,5,10.
So, an unarmed Moth requires "Trade License" and "Trade level 4", while the armed versions also require "Combat License".
Any Freighter or Multirole ship can be used for mining. Only special mining versions requires mining licenses. Combat ships can't mine.
----------------
Now, for factions, what we really need is another faction. One that homes all traitors, pirates, griefers, outlaws, madman and whoever does not play civilized. Can be Corvus, but preferably no, make it a 14th faction, closely related to Corvus, just like TPG>UIT.
Guilds must be made stronger inside UIT. Like, players can make a guild to be aligned with smaller factions. This is mostly cosmetic, like Axia is UIT... But any member of a guild related to a smaller faction becomes member of that faction, instead of UIT directly.
Factions interactions should become more complex also, with multiple axis of alignment. Axia/Valent, Tung/Orion, Aeolus/Biocom, TPG/Corvus... they are UIT before Serco/Itani, but opposing forces elsewhere
----------------
Finally, make many things mutually exclusive, like who gets a Valk can't fly Proms, who has AtlasX can't use Hounds, so on...
-Trade ships should have no weapons, only turrets, including autoturrets, and equipament ports.
-Multirole ships can use both equipament and weapons.
-Combat ships have weapons-only setup.
So, all space cadets do basic training, then are offered 2 carrers: Logistics and Military.
-Logistics gives you "Trade License" after a 'trade school' and direct access to larger but unarmed ships. Those can carry cargo >=25 cu.
-Military branch leads you back to combat academy, and gives you the "Combat License" to access combat ships, with "pilots' guns". But <25cu cargo.
>Taking one carreer allows one to later return to academy and take 2 extra trainings, first unlocks multirole ships, second unlocks all. So choice results in what type of ships you start with.
Adapting to VO, non-combat ships would have two versions: Multirole and Freighter, where the multirole ports are replaced with Equipament ports, limited only to mining beams, repair guns, scanners, blockers...
Multirole ships are the armed versions of Atlas, Centaurs, Moths, etc., while military ships are Valks, Proms, Hogs, etc.
They have a clear limit of 25cu storage, military ones tend to have little to none storage.
Ship requirements become basically equivalent to Trade/Combat licenses now, but limited to 4 levels, equivalent to Trade/Combat 1,3,5,10.
So, an unarmed Moth requires "Trade License" and "Trade level 4", while the armed versions also require "Combat License".
Any Freighter or Multirole ship can be used for mining. Only special mining versions requires mining licenses. Combat ships can't mine.
----------------
Now, for factions, what we really need is another faction. One that homes all traitors, pirates, griefers, outlaws, madman and whoever does not play civilized. Can be Corvus, but preferably no, make it a 14th faction, closely related to Corvus, just like TPG>UIT.
Guilds must be made stronger inside UIT. Like, players can make a guild to be aligned with smaller factions. This is mostly cosmetic, like Axia is UIT... But any member of a guild related to a smaller faction becomes member of that faction, instead of UIT directly.
Factions interactions should become more complex also, with multiple axis of alignment. Axia/Valent, Tung/Orion, Aeolus/Biocom, TPG/Corvus... they are UIT before Serco/Itani, but opposing forces elsewhere
----------------
Finally, make many things mutually exclusive, like who gets a Valk can't fly Proms, who has AtlasX can't use Hounds, so on...
"Trade ships should have no weapons, only turrets, including autoturrets, and equipament ports"
No. Just no... this is honestly the worst idea you've ever had.
"Guilds must be made stronger inside UIT."
No. Not unless there is a way to do it for all nations and Gray factions
"But any member of a guild related to a smaller faction becomes member of that faction"
No. Besides the Devs have stated that minor factions will likely become playable
"So, all space cadets do basic training, then are offered 2 carrers: Logistics and Military."
Way too limiting and what about the players whose professions combine trade and combat... pirates, smugglers... etc... etc
"Taking one carreer allows one to later return to academy and take 2 extra trainings, first unlocks multirole ships, second unlocks all. So choice results in what type of ships you start with."
So, ultimately... a big rewrite which results in nothing except a long convoluted route right back to where we are now with ship access. A big GIANT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
"military ones tend to have little to none storage."
Because there is no such thing as a military cargo transport... no
"Combat ships can't mine."
Yeah... because no one has ever used military vehicles for anything other than the original purpose. My buddy at the Gardner airport who does flight tours in an old ww2 bomber is going to be disappointed. No.
"One that homes all traitors, pirates, griefers, outlaws, madman and whoever does not play civilized."
You and you alone have been after this forever... and no one likes it. Know why? ITS A HORRENDOUS IDEA! You think some new faction is going to house CHRN/CLM/THC/SKV... hell,you better throw ITAN in there too,they seem to be the "villian du jour" recently and every other group/player that some one doesn't like how they play? what is the criteria for this banishment? People whining? Should members of ONE or ITAN be forced into it if they repeatedly attack their nations enemies in nation space? Should a Serco Privateer be forced into it for attacking Itani or UIT trade ships trying to enter Serco Space? Should Peytros be forced into it for singing badly? Lets talk traitors... I assumeyou mean any Serco with higher than hated standing with the Itani? As well as any Itani with higher than hated for Serco? Not to mention any Serco/itani/UIT that docks a Prom/Valk/Moth(raptor)(wraith)(Maud) at any station other than its faction of origin... seriously, that's proprietary technology! togive an enemy access toit in a time of war! Or rival corporations... why, that's tantamount to corporate espionage! and surely all non Itanis flying Valks are traitors! After all... what did they do to get so much special treatment? then there are the UIT pilots that engage in border battles in the Itani/ Serco war! Clearly their involvement in conflict as opposed to neutral profiteering is an afront toall that is holy to the UIT!
BANISH THE SWINE!!!
"Factions interactions should become more complex also, with multiple axis of alignment. Axia/Valent, Tung/Orion, Aeolus/Biocom, TPG/Corvus... they are UIT before Serco/Itani, but opposing forces elsewhere"
I'm going to assume you mean rival corporations in UIT... that being the case, yes.
"Finally, make many things mutually exclusive, like who gets a Valk can't fly Proms, who has AtlasX can't use Hounds, so on..."
Again, I'm going on assumption... I assume you mean based on mutually exclusive factions (which at least for Serco and Itani should have been implemented from the start)... as in you have Serco +900 you automatically lose 900 points of Itani faction. Or, you have +900 Corvus, you lose 900 for TPG... etc... etc...
Wow... out of ALL that, you had two good and not at all original ideas! Great work chief.
No. Just no... this is honestly the worst idea you've ever had.
"Guilds must be made stronger inside UIT."
No. Not unless there is a way to do it for all nations and Gray factions
"But any member of a guild related to a smaller faction becomes member of that faction"
No. Besides the Devs have stated that minor factions will likely become playable
"So, all space cadets do basic training, then are offered 2 carrers: Logistics and Military."
Way too limiting and what about the players whose professions combine trade and combat... pirates, smugglers... etc... etc
"Taking one carreer allows one to later return to academy and take 2 extra trainings, first unlocks multirole ships, second unlocks all. So choice results in what type of ships you start with."
So, ultimately... a big rewrite which results in nothing except a long convoluted route right back to where we are now with ship access. A big GIANT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
"military ones tend to have little to none storage."
Because there is no such thing as a military cargo transport... no
"Combat ships can't mine."
Yeah... because no one has ever used military vehicles for anything other than the original purpose. My buddy at the Gardner airport who does flight tours in an old ww2 bomber is going to be disappointed. No.
"One that homes all traitors, pirates, griefers, outlaws, madman and whoever does not play civilized."
You and you alone have been after this forever... and no one likes it. Know why? ITS A HORRENDOUS IDEA! You think some new faction is going to house CHRN/CLM/THC/SKV... hell,you better throw ITAN in there too,they seem to be the "villian du jour" recently and every other group/player that some one doesn't like how they play? what is the criteria for this banishment? People whining? Should members of ONE or ITAN be forced into it if they repeatedly attack their nations enemies in nation space? Should a Serco Privateer be forced into it for attacking Itani or UIT trade ships trying to enter Serco Space? Should Peytros be forced into it for singing badly? Lets talk traitors... I assumeyou mean any Serco with higher than hated standing with the Itani? As well as any Itani with higher than hated for Serco? Not to mention any Serco/itani/UIT that docks a Prom/Valk/Moth(raptor)(wraith)(Maud) at any station other than its faction of origin... seriously, that's proprietary technology! togive an enemy access toit in a time of war! Or rival corporations... why, that's tantamount to corporate espionage! and surely all non Itanis flying Valks are traitors! After all... what did they do to get so much special treatment? then there are the UIT pilots that engage in border battles in the Itani/ Serco war! Clearly their involvement in conflict as opposed to neutral profiteering is an afront toall that is holy to the UIT!
BANISH THE SWINE!!!
"Factions interactions should become more complex also, with multiple axis of alignment. Axia/Valent, Tung/Orion, Aeolus/Biocom, TPG/Corvus... they are UIT before Serco/Itani, but opposing forces elsewhere"
I'm going to assume you mean rival corporations in UIT... that being the case, yes.
"Finally, make many things mutually exclusive, like who gets a Valk can't fly Proms, who has AtlasX can't use Hounds, so on..."
Again, I'm going on assumption... I assume you mean based on mutually exclusive factions (which at least for Serco and Itani should have been implemented from the start)... as in you have Serco +900 you automatically lose 900 points of Itani faction. Or, you have +900 Corvus, you lose 900 for TPG... etc... etc...
Wow... out of ALL that, you had two good and not at all original ideas! Great work chief.
"Corvus is a legit UIT corporation that operates in grey space with looser standards then normal."
PaKettle
Really? Since when? Maybe you could cite your source for this info?? Since you can't... I'll explain why you cant... you're wrong.
From the wiki...
Corvus Prime is Vendetta Online's pirate faction. They operate out of gray space, with headquarters in the Odia system.
Corvus, while not a corporation in any legal sense, certainly has a tangible economic impact on activities within the UIT, and the universe as a whole. This black market cluster of stations has become a major haven for pirate activity, mercenaries and corporations who simply wish to avoid Senate oversight. All manner of underground activities take place here under the baleful eye of the mysterious Syndicate, the little-known enforcing overlords of Corvus Prime. No lawful entities attempt to bring this region under their sway, partially because of the Syndicate's not-insignificant influence and firepower, and partially because of the logic that.. if Corvus were destroyed, they would simply reorganize in another, unknown location. "Better to know where the hornets nest" stated one law enforcement representative. This rationale is made that much easier by the Syndicate's strictly defensive posture within Corvus space. No attempts are made to expand or to influence other regions, and in fact the Syndicate is almost never heard from, even within their own territory. It is believed they have high-level economic dealings with several of the major corporations, but nothing is known of their membership, size, organization or leadership. Law enforcement agencies ceased to attempt to penetrate the organization long ago, when operative after undercover operative failed to return or report
So... this "legit law abiding UIT corporation/legit UIT corporation that operates in grey space with looser standards then normal."(your words) which is also... "not a corporation in any legal sense" (Devs words)... routinely assassinates covert operatives that law enforcement agencies send to infiltrate them, has not been eradicated because its easier to counter act them (when possible) by knowing where they are and "has become a major haven for pirate activity, mercenaries and corporations who simply wish to avoid Senate oversight." That all sounds terribly legit and law abiding.
PaKettle
Really? Since when? Maybe you could cite your source for this info?? Since you can't... I'll explain why you cant... you're wrong.
From the wiki...
Corvus Prime is Vendetta Online's pirate faction. They operate out of gray space, with headquarters in the Odia system.
Corvus, while not a corporation in any legal sense, certainly has a tangible economic impact on activities within the UIT, and the universe as a whole. This black market cluster of stations has become a major haven for pirate activity, mercenaries and corporations who simply wish to avoid Senate oversight. All manner of underground activities take place here under the baleful eye of the mysterious Syndicate, the little-known enforcing overlords of Corvus Prime. No lawful entities attempt to bring this region under their sway, partially because of the Syndicate's not-insignificant influence and firepower, and partially because of the logic that.. if Corvus were destroyed, they would simply reorganize in another, unknown location. "Better to know where the hornets nest" stated one law enforcement representative. This rationale is made that much easier by the Syndicate's strictly defensive posture within Corvus space. No attempts are made to expand or to influence other regions, and in fact the Syndicate is almost never heard from, even within their own territory. It is believed they have high-level economic dealings with several of the major corporations, but nothing is known of their membership, size, organization or leadership. Law enforcement agencies ceased to attempt to penetrate the organization long ago, when operative after undercover operative failed to return or report
So... this "legit law abiding UIT corporation/legit UIT corporation that operates in grey space with looser standards then normal."(your words) which is also... "not a corporation in any legal sense" (Devs words)... routinely assassinates covert operatives that law enforcement agencies send to infiltrate them, has not been eradicated because its easier to counter act them (when possible) by knowing where they are and "has become a major haven for pirate activity, mercenaries and corporations who simply wish to avoid Senate oversight." That all sounds terribly legit and law abiding.
+1 Ryan. Really Alloh, you spew crap all over threads. Granted, you've had a few good ideas, but this one is just silly.
+1 Ryan! You whooped their asses pretty nicely.
Hey, Ryan, calm down... it was a request for ideas and changes on requirements for equipaments. Those are my opinions. Just 'dislike' it and ok, as Vskye did...
I brought it from both real-world and many space games, where there are ships dedicated to cargo hauling, and "truck drivers" that carry no guns at all. There are military transports and ships, but the "logistics" vehicles usually are NOT able to be used in real combat, and have only a few light weapons for personal defense... they allways ride in convoy, being escorted by real fighting vehicles...
In VO, the only real cargo ship are the moths. Allmost all other are multipurpose, almost no specialization. I prefer a more clear separation, just like comparing a XC to a Valk: 200cu+NoGuns vs 2cu+3guns ... Note Prom, Trident, Rags... that can be used for anything.
And your friend's bomber was modified for civilian usage after being decommisioned post-war. During the WWII, no bomber was used for mining or personal transport, there were dedicated transport ships, leaving bombers only for bombing!
---
About traitors/etc, the limit is quite simple: Anyone hated or lower with his *native* faction is a traitor.
Like, an UIT citizen member ot FR, KoS with Serco and Itani, but admired by UIT, is technically a good citizen. Another Serco guy who attacks anyone, including Serco, is a traitor for killling other Serco as himself.
---
Finally, Corvus position needs some clearance, maybe a fix. If it is not a corporation, does not have "factories", why do them produce from holodisks to ships? Backstory have nothing about it...
For me, we need a 14th faction, bound to Corvus just like TPG is to UIT.
I brought it from both real-world and many space games, where there are ships dedicated to cargo hauling, and "truck drivers" that carry no guns at all. There are military transports and ships, but the "logistics" vehicles usually are NOT able to be used in real combat, and have only a few light weapons for personal defense... they allways ride in convoy, being escorted by real fighting vehicles...
In VO, the only real cargo ship are the moths. Allmost all other are multipurpose, almost no specialization. I prefer a more clear separation, just like comparing a XC to a Valk: 200cu+NoGuns vs 2cu+3guns ... Note Prom, Trident, Rags... that can be used for anything.
And your friend's bomber was modified for civilian usage after being decommisioned post-war. During the WWII, no bomber was used for mining or personal transport, there were dedicated transport ships, leaving bombers only for bombing!
---
About traitors/etc, the limit is quite simple: Anyone hated or lower with his *native* faction is a traitor.
Like, an UIT citizen member ot FR, KoS with Serco and Itani, but admired by UIT, is technically a good citizen. Another Serco guy who attacks anyone, including Serco, is a traitor for killling other Serco as himself.
---
Finally, Corvus position needs some clearance, maybe a fix. If it is not a corporation, does not have "factories", why do them produce from holodisks to ships? Backstory have nothing about it...
For me, we need a 14th faction, bound to Corvus just like TPG is to UIT.
"About traitors/etc, the limit is quite simple: Anyone hated or lower with his *native* faction is a traitor.
Like, an UIT citizen member ot FR, KoS with Serco and Itani, but admired by UIT, is technically a good citizen. Another Serco guy who attacks anyone, including Serco, is a traitor for killling other Serco as himself."
Exactly. So use this existing mechanism. There is no need to add a separate faction to identify those people.
As for Corvus, just because they are not a legal corporation does not mean they don't have factories. Furthermore, they can and do deal with other greyspace entities to obtain things they can't or don't want to produce themselves. They likely deal with the factions inside nation space as well, though they'd probably do so in secret and under false names.
Like, an UIT citizen member ot FR, KoS with Serco and Itani, but admired by UIT, is technically a good citizen. Another Serco guy who attacks anyone, including Serco, is a traitor for killling other Serco as himself."
Exactly. So use this existing mechanism. There is no need to add a separate faction to identify those people.
As for Corvus, just because they are not a legal corporation does not mean they don't have factories. Furthermore, they can and do deal with other greyspace entities to obtain things they can't or don't want to produce themselves. They likely deal with the factions inside nation space as well, though they'd probably do so in secret and under false names.
I'm still unsure why every wants corvus to the pirate faction, yeah it doesnt follow the "laws" of the UIT... well Leeman Brothers, Enron, Shell, Exxon and just about every other corporation on the planet pays top dollar (as im sure Lecter can attest to) to hire people who's sole job is to find loopholes and circumvent laws. Everyone and their mother has corvus standing...because corvus isnt pirate...its merchant..it doesnt CARE who you are..who you like..who you kill.. as long as you give them their damn money.
In ye olden days of real piracy, the vast majority of pirates were privateers given legal permission to pirate certain factions.. when they went astray...they were hunted by even those factions. In turn, they created their own networks of restocking, refitting, and generally fun (to them) places to hang out, not aligned to anyone. Give the unrats a base.. let people willing to pay the price and be "marked" ie unable to freely enter other national spaces the ability to have their own havens, with their own, unique equipment.
In ye olden days of real piracy, the vast majority of pirates were privateers given legal permission to pirate certain factions.. when they went astray...they were hunted by even those factions. In turn, they created their own networks of restocking, refitting, and generally fun (to them) places to hang out, not aligned to anyone. Give the unrats a base.. let people willing to pay the price and be "marked" ie unable to freely enter other national spaces the ability to have their own havens, with their own, unique equipment.
I'm here to tell ya that Enron and Lehman Bros. aren't paying anyone anything anymore.
corvus isnt pirate...its merchant
So you say, but RR just linked to a Dev quote describing them as "Vendetta Online's pirate faction": address that, or shut yer hole.
corvus isnt pirate...its merchant
So you say, but RR just linked to a Dev quote describing them as "Vendetta Online's pirate faction": address that, or shut yer hole.
OT for a bit:
Faction levels show how much people like you, not who you are. This is the core of the problem with Alloh's wishes for an outlaw faction. He wants a virtual faction to lump all the outlaws into so that we can have a flag to wave. That is not how factions work. Factions are not a brand to label somebody with. If I pirate somebody, I should not automatically be thrown into some virtual pirate faction. Instead, I should (and already do!) have my standing with the person's faction reduced, so that they know I'm potentially dangerous. If the game wants to store and provide a list of my criminal actions, that is also valid. (Only stuff done in monitored space of course.) But doing piracy should not change my allegiance to some virtual faction containing people I may consider myself at war with (pirates can compete over turf, for example).
We don't need a "pirate/outlaw faction". What we need are three things:
1. A way to choose our allegiance, so that somebody can say, "I belong to TPG". This is in the works for someday, as far as I know.
2. An option to set the allegiance to our guild rather than an official faction. (Some guilds would be the sort that are more of loose clubs, wheras others take priority over nation. For example, I consider myself an American first, and a Boy Scout second. However, I consider myself a CHRN first, and a UIT second.) Basically, a guild is a faction. A small one in most cases, but as the game expands and the capturable (and eventually buildable) stations are enhanced, this will become more apparent.
3. An option to set your allegiance to "unaligned". Not "outlaw", "pirate", etc. Just "unaligned", or perhaps "independent". It says that you belong to nobody but yourself. Maybe you are a pirate, or maybe you are an explorer, or a miner, or a repairman, or a bot killing legend. Whatever the case, you don't consider yourself a member of any particular society.
There would not be an "unaligned" faction level. Unaligned isn't a faction. When you see two people who both label themselves "unaligned", the only thing you know they have in common is that neither considers himself a member of a group. One might be a helpful person and the other might be a cutthroat who is about to kill both of you and sell your organs on the black market, intentionally mislabeled as being of much higher quality than they really are.
--
Now, adding a faction or two to the game who explicitly engage in piracy is a different matter entirely. Maybe I would build up my faction standing with them. Maybe I would declare war on them because they keep stealing my prey.
--
Back on topic:
Some mutual exclusion is good, but too much is a bad thing. This needs to never become the sort of game where you are forced to continue following some role. "I chose to be a miner, so now I cannot obtain a combat ship. Woe is me." I think most of us realize this, I just wanted to say it out loud so we don't forget.
Also, keep in mind that the atmosphere of VO is that of the wild west, not the heart of a first world country. This is a dangerous place, so nearly everybody has some weapons capability as a matter of course. Even if you want nothing to do with the military, you had better have a gun and know how to use it, because Rin might jump out from behind a corner and start demanding your money. Or you might walk in on a hive migration. The military is generally going to have the biggest baddest weapons, but unlike certain "modern civilized" countries in real life, everybody has access to things that go "bang" - or "pew pew" anyway. The government issues you with free blasters for Pete's sake. We have deadly bots infesting literally the sector adjacent to the capitol station.
So don't get too carried away with military requirements to get anything worth fighting with. Valks and Proms, ok. The SVG and IBG? Sure. The standard Vulture and Centurion series? No.
Also, "combat requirement" != "military requirement". We could still require people to prove their mettle before being given access to the Vulture without making them commit to the military.
Faction levels show how much people like you, not who you are. This is the core of the problem with Alloh's wishes for an outlaw faction. He wants a virtual faction to lump all the outlaws into so that we can have a flag to wave. That is not how factions work. Factions are not a brand to label somebody with. If I pirate somebody, I should not automatically be thrown into some virtual pirate faction. Instead, I should (and already do!) have my standing with the person's faction reduced, so that they know I'm potentially dangerous. If the game wants to store and provide a list of my criminal actions, that is also valid. (Only stuff done in monitored space of course.) But doing piracy should not change my allegiance to some virtual faction containing people I may consider myself at war with (pirates can compete over turf, for example).
We don't need a "pirate/outlaw faction". What we need are three things:
1. A way to choose our allegiance, so that somebody can say, "I belong to TPG". This is in the works for someday, as far as I know.
2. An option to set the allegiance to our guild rather than an official faction. (Some guilds would be the sort that are more of loose clubs, wheras others take priority over nation. For example, I consider myself an American first, and a Boy Scout second. However, I consider myself a CHRN first, and a UIT second.) Basically, a guild is a faction. A small one in most cases, but as the game expands and the capturable (and eventually buildable) stations are enhanced, this will become more apparent.
3. An option to set your allegiance to "unaligned". Not "outlaw", "pirate", etc. Just "unaligned", or perhaps "independent". It says that you belong to nobody but yourself. Maybe you are a pirate, or maybe you are an explorer, or a miner, or a repairman, or a bot killing legend. Whatever the case, you don't consider yourself a member of any particular society.
There would not be an "unaligned" faction level. Unaligned isn't a faction. When you see two people who both label themselves "unaligned", the only thing you know they have in common is that neither considers himself a member of a group. One might be a helpful person and the other might be a cutthroat who is about to kill both of you and sell your organs on the black market, intentionally mislabeled as being of much higher quality than they really are.
--
Now, adding a faction or two to the game who explicitly engage in piracy is a different matter entirely. Maybe I would build up my faction standing with them. Maybe I would declare war on them because they keep stealing my prey.
--
Back on topic:
Some mutual exclusion is good, but too much is a bad thing. This needs to never become the sort of game where you are forced to continue following some role. "I chose to be a miner, so now I cannot obtain a combat ship. Woe is me." I think most of us realize this, I just wanted to say it out loud so we don't forget.
Also, keep in mind that the atmosphere of VO is that of the wild west, not the heart of a first world country. This is a dangerous place, so nearly everybody has some weapons capability as a matter of course. Even if you want nothing to do with the military, you had better have a gun and know how to use it, because Rin might jump out from behind a corner and start demanding your money. Or you might walk in on a hive migration. The military is generally going to have the biggest baddest weapons, but unlike certain "modern civilized" countries in real life, everybody has access to things that go "bang" - or "pew pew" anyway. The government issues you with free blasters for Pete's sake. We have deadly bots infesting literally the sector adjacent to the capitol station.
So don't get too carried away with military requirements to get anything worth fighting with. Valks and Proms, ok. The SVG and IBG? Sure. The standard Vulture and Centurion series? No.
Also, "combat requirement" != "military requirement". We could still require people to prove their mettle before being given access to the Vulture without making them commit to the military.
Let me explain myself better:
All this problem is because we cannot neiter execute nor imprison people in VO. Only alternative for an organized nation would be to BAN such traitor and mark up his IFF/Transponder as hostile, to ensure his own borders. Why offer a bounty for someone's life, if he will ressurect over and over again? A bounty for someone who can ressurect at will is not a defense, just a delay.
Isn't enough to be a pirate to be banned. There should be a clear line not to cross. That line is not killing his own citizens in your own nation. Like, a Serco citizen can kill anyone not Serco in any place, and other Serco in unmonitored space, and remain NOT a traitor.
Now, when same Serco pilot starts killing Serco Pilots (Player or NPC) inside Serco territory, for me, every organized nation would TAG that person a traitor, and impose a BAN since he can't be really killed neither jailed. So every 3KoS would receive that tag.
Ok, let's make the hive and devs become faction "Hive", so we recover the "unaligned" tag. Then BAN would be make the player become 'unaligned', i.e., no nation or a pariah. Standings does not apply to them. Corvus and XX welcomes them while officially state that don't. All them have in common is a TAG... a sort of marginalization.
Other alternative is a specific pirate faction, that players could be decide to join, and/or be forced into. For me that also works fine, but again, this 'faction' should "admire" no one else but its members. Each individual in Pirate Nation remains with standings with other nations, and becomes a traitor, perma-KoS with his native nation.
--->
Back to Combat/Military, those grades are not exclusive, but a matter of what you wanna try first.
Take "trader" and you start with larger but unarmed ships, best suited for trading, mining, etc. Later take "Combat Training" and reach all 'multirole' ships in VO. But for military grade ones (Prom, Valk, WTD?, etc) you must serve the fleet...
Take "Military" and you start with fighters, with almost no cargo capacity but good combat capabilities. Later you take the simple "Utility School" to unlock multirole ships, later the "Trade School" gives you all remaining ships.
So, instead of "Wild West", we have a "Modern Civilization" rules. Safe zones, dangerous areas, some carry guns, others don't...
The basic idea is separate more clearly the vehicles. The Army have armed tanks and hummers, and unarmed trucks for logistics. Air Force have Fighters, Bombers and Cargo planes. Navy have combat ships and support ships. VO only have all-purpose ships... (Except the XC)
All this problem is because we cannot neiter execute nor imprison people in VO. Only alternative for an organized nation would be to BAN such traitor and mark up his IFF/Transponder as hostile, to ensure his own borders. Why offer a bounty for someone's life, if he will ressurect over and over again? A bounty for someone who can ressurect at will is not a defense, just a delay.
Isn't enough to be a pirate to be banned. There should be a clear line not to cross. That line is not killing his own citizens in your own nation. Like, a Serco citizen can kill anyone not Serco in any place, and other Serco in unmonitored space, and remain NOT a traitor.
Now, when same Serco pilot starts killing Serco Pilots (Player or NPC) inside Serco territory, for me, every organized nation would TAG that person a traitor, and impose a BAN since he can't be really killed neither jailed. So every 3KoS would receive that tag.
Ok, let's make the hive and devs become faction "Hive", so we recover the "unaligned" tag. Then BAN would be make the player become 'unaligned', i.e., no nation or a pariah. Standings does not apply to them. Corvus and XX welcomes them while officially state that don't. All them have in common is a TAG... a sort of marginalization.
Other alternative is a specific pirate faction, that players could be decide to join, and/or be forced into. For me that also works fine, but again, this 'faction' should "admire" no one else but its members. Each individual in Pirate Nation remains with standings with other nations, and becomes a traitor, perma-KoS with his native nation.
--->
Back to Combat/Military, those grades are not exclusive, but a matter of what you wanna try first.
Take "trader" and you start with larger but unarmed ships, best suited for trading, mining, etc. Later take "Combat Training" and reach all 'multirole' ships in VO. But for military grade ones (Prom, Valk, WTD?, etc) you must serve the fleet...
Take "Military" and you start with fighters, with almost no cargo capacity but good combat capabilities. Later you take the simple "Utility School" to unlock multirole ships, later the "Trade School" gives you all remaining ships.
So, instead of "Wild West", we have a "Modern Civilization" rules. Safe zones, dangerous areas, some carry guns, others don't...
The basic idea is separate more clearly the vehicles. The Army have armed tanks and hummers, and unarmed trucks for logistics. Air Force have Fighters, Bombers and Cargo planes. Navy have combat ships and support ships. VO only have all-purpose ships... (Except the XC)
Sorry Ryan but the issue of Corvus has been hashed out before and what I stated is Incarnates position on the subject. (the wiki is not the devs btw) Anyhow - The topic is not using levels or faction to determine access - Piracy is a bit off topic and Alloh is way off as usual so lets move along.
I agree a player should not be locked into a single path. No decision should be irreversable. Joining the military should also allow a way to be discharged. Becoming a pirate should allow a way to return to a law abiding life. However, simply erasing those marks is also a bit off.... Ex-military and ex-pirate are better in that they allow a player to retain the "knowledge" of the profession. I am guessing a status number rather then a flag would be one way to handle it.
Example: military status
0000 no service
1000 - active
2000 retired
100 Serco
200 Itani
300 Uit
10 enlisted
20 officer
1-9 rank
1125 = active, serco, officer, level 5 (commander?)
An Ex - officer would still retain the ability to use military hardware but would lose the normal military discounts. They might also be able to use this as a substitute for some hardware that required a bounty hunters license.
I agree a player should not be locked into a single path. No decision should be irreversable. Joining the military should also allow a way to be discharged. Becoming a pirate should allow a way to return to a law abiding life. However, simply erasing those marks is also a bit off.... Ex-military and ex-pirate are better in that they allow a player to retain the "knowledge" of the profession. I am guessing a status number rather then a flag would be one way to handle it.
Example: military status
0000 no service
1000 - active
2000 retired
100 Serco
200 Itani
300 Uit
10 enlisted
20 officer
1-9 rank
1125 = active, serco, officer, level 5 (commander?)
An Ex - officer would still retain the ability to use military hardware but would lose the normal military discounts. They might also be able to use this as a substitute for some hardware that required a bounty hunters license.
@ Lecter, agreed they arent paying anyone anymore. As far as corvus goes, the description reads that it has become a haven for pirates, not that the corporation engages in piracy. Just like the legal profession, which has become a haven for swindlers; half educated, amoral asses; and sociopaths, is not soley dedicated to fucking over whoever has the least money. Corvus is not a pirate faction, merely a corporation that doesnt ask where its profits are coming from.
One usually gets more for their billable hour by fucking over whomever has the most money, dumbass.
"All this problem is because we cannot neiter execute nor imprison people in VO. Only alternative for an organized nation would be to BAN such traitor and mark up his IFF/Transponder as hostile, to ensure his own borders."
See Alloh, all you had to do was explain it more clearly! Now I think its the best idea I've ever heard!
So, in order to help this along... what we need to do is put a few simple things in place:
A BANNED TriKoS person enters nation space. Well first, obviously... there should be some type of military/border installation. Maybe on the border we could have a bunch of turret like devices that blast the hell of the person. If he goes to a station to perhaps there could be some type of station loyalists patrolling the station... guarding it against brutal BANNED criminal scum. Now bear with me here... these BANNED pilots are clearly dangerous, so in addition what would be needed is some type of special tactical unit that could strike out with great force at these criminals!
In addition to all this make NPCs of all major factions attack them when they are near, like they want to kill them on sight.
Do all that and your idea would be brilliant!!!
See Alloh, all you had to do was explain it more clearly! Now I think its the best idea I've ever heard!
So, in order to help this along... what we need to do is put a few simple things in place:
A BANNED TriKoS person enters nation space. Well first, obviously... there should be some type of military/border installation. Maybe on the border we could have a bunch of turret like devices that blast the hell of the person. If he goes to a station to perhaps there could be some type of station loyalists patrolling the station... guarding it against brutal BANNED criminal scum. Now bear with me here... these BANNED pilots are clearly dangerous, so in addition what would be needed is some type of special tactical unit that could strike out with great force at these criminals!
In addition to all this make NPCs of all major factions attack them when they are near, like they want to kill them on sight.
Do all that and your idea would be brilliant!!!