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To the Forum Moderator: Before you delete this post or lock the topic, please consider that I was trying to write a well thought-out essay about whether pirating really needs to be in the test. I tried to keep it civil, and nonflammatory, so please just hear me out.
In the community of the Vendetta Test today, pirates and greifers number among the most prevalent class of player. Traders and new players come next, and last the old players from 3.1.x and before, and the other players who dedicate their time online to hunting pirates. A common question that is asked is, "Do pirates really have a place in the Vendetta Test?" Of course we know the pirates and greifers will say yes and the traders and new players will mostly say no.
Pirating is a relatively new trade, speaking in Vendetta terms, as cargo originated early on in 3.0.x and was set as droppable by killed players one or two bugfix updates later. Soon, as players only needed to pay to upgrade their initial ship's engines, battery, and weapons, the light fighters (Centurian, Hornet, Vulture) became prime pirating vessels as they were used to obliterate trading heavies (Wraith, Ragnorok, and Prometheus which then had the model of our current bus) with the much hated lv2 rockets and blue ions. Icarus made a bad name for himself back around late 3.0.x to early 3.1.x as J.A.W., then n00bie, and later his current Icarus. Pirating generally wasn't a problem back then in a monetary sense because no-one everhad more than one or two million credits (Except a select few). I never even got above 700k until 3.2.x. Money had become so easy to come by with the secret sectors offering their great trade routes. This allowed a new wave of pirates to emerge. The Railgun pirates were mostly unoppsed until the railgun was nerfed in 3.2.2. They then moved on to the Valk and Tri tachs and gravs... but later found the effectiveness of the tri sunflare to be much more easy and much more satisfying. Which brings us to the present day, what with our "Eivl is Good" and "Syndicate" pirate guilds.
Our pirates say that what they do adds flavor to the game. Some traders and other players agree. This may be true, but while adding spice here or there makes a great pot of chili, as they say, too many cooks spoil the soup. The pirates currently playing the game use the tri sunflare to "rocket ram" an opponent, bot killing and infuriating them while sustaining some of the splash damage. They also use taunting behavior, and tend to have egos that are sky high, and refuse to fight with any setup other than Valkyrie with Tri flares. They always run when they run out of ammo, realising that doing the fair thing isn't as economical as turning tail and fleeing before making another similar attack.
(Most) traders feel that pirating is unnecessary, and serves as not only a distraction from the true purpose of the test (to break it in the worst ways possible so the developers can fix anything that could go wrong before commercial release), and that it deters newer players from playing the game, as pirates and greifers frequently target new players to pirate. This causes one of several things to occur: 1) the player quits Vendetta altogether, 2) the player continues playing to get better, and becomes a pirate/greifer him/herself, or 3) the player gets better so he can kick some pirate/greifer BUTT. Shouldn't take more than one guess to get the most often of those that occurs. It's 1. Most new players leave after being pirated several times mercilessly. This means something neds to be done about it.
In my opinion, both sides have a point, even though the traders have more going for them than the pirates. The one thing I can think of going for the pirates is that they are generally made up of exploiters of the Triflare ram, showing that it needs to be fixed. That's the only (useful) purpose they serve. It is true that there are a few select pirates that ask you to jettison your cargo before they open fire, and if you do jettison they will take what they can hold and leave the rest for you, and I commend those few for attempting to show the rest what pirating on the Test should be like.
Responses are welcome, be forewarned, you flame, you are to blame if your post gets <snip>ed. I did my part in trying to keep my post civil. You do yours.
In the community of the Vendetta Test today, pirates and greifers number among the most prevalent class of player. Traders and new players come next, and last the old players from 3.1.x and before, and the other players who dedicate their time online to hunting pirates. A common question that is asked is, "Do pirates really have a place in the Vendetta Test?" Of course we know the pirates and greifers will say yes and the traders and new players will mostly say no.
Pirating is a relatively new trade, speaking in Vendetta terms, as cargo originated early on in 3.0.x and was set as droppable by killed players one or two bugfix updates later. Soon, as players only needed to pay to upgrade their initial ship's engines, battery, and weapons, the light fighters (Centurian, Hornet, Vulture) became prime pirating vessels as they were used to obliterate trading heavies (Wraith, Ragnorok, and Prometheus which then had the model of our current bus) with the much hated lv2 rockets and blue ions. Icarus made a bad name for himself back around late 3.0.x to early 3.1.x as J.A.W., then n00bie, and later his current Icarus. Pirating generally wasn't a problem back then in a monetary sense because no-one everhad more than one or two million credits (Except a select few). I never even got above 700k until 3.2.x. Money had become so easy to come by with the secret sectors offering their great trade routes. This allowed a new wave of pirates to emerge. The Railgun pirates were mostly unoppsed until the railgun was nerfed in 3.2.2. They then moved on to the Valk and Tri tachs and gravs... but later found the effectiveness of the tri sunflare to be much more easy and much more satisfying. Which brings us to the present day, what with our "Eivl is Good" and "Syndicate" pirate guilds.
Our pirates say that what they do adds flavor to the game. Some traders and other players agree. This may be true, but while adding spice here or there makes a great pot of chili, as they say, too many cooks spoil the soup. The pirates currently playing the game use the tri sunflare to "rocket ram" an opponent, bot killing and infuriating them while sustaining some of the splash damage. They also use taunting behavior, and tend to have egos that are sky high, and refuse to fight with any setup other than Valkyrie with Tri flares. They always run when they run out of ammo, realising that doing the fair thing isn't as economical as turning tail and fleeing before making another similar attack.
(Most) traders feel that pirating is unnecessary, and serves as not only a distraction from the true purpose of the test (to break it in the worst ways possible so the developers can fix anything that could go wrong before commercial release), and that it deters newer players from playing the game, as pirates and greifers frequently target new players to pirate. This causes one of several things to occur: 1) the player quits Vendetta altogether, 2) the player continues playing to get better, and becomes a pirate/greifer him/herself, or 3) the player gets better so he can kick some pirate/greifer BUTT. Shouldn't take more than one guess to get the most often of those that occurs. It's 1. Most new players leave after being pirated several times mercilessly. This means something neds to be done about it.
In my opinion, both sides have a point, even though the traders have more going for them than the pirates. The one thing I can think of going for the pirates is that they are generally made up of exploiters of the Triflare ram, showing that it needs to be fixed. That's the only (useful) purpose they serve. It is true that there are a few select pirates that ask you to jettison your cargo before they open fire, and if you do jettison they will take what they can hold and leave the rest for you, and I commend those few for attempting to show the rest what pirating on the Test should be like.
Responses are welcome, be forewarned, you flame, you are to blame if your post gets <snip>ed. I did my part in trying to keep my post civil. You do yours.
Well one good thing about pirating now is the syn, believe it or not we have a code of honor and only attack if we think the player can continue to afford cargo and ships, and we rarely attack a trader more than once. But I agree, lone pirates who attack anyone without mercy don't have a place in vendetta "yet" but their place will be made apparent later in the test. One of the problems with trading is that it is not considered a team activity, which makes pirating more profitable (no escorts, no problem) We need to find a way to encourage people to escort a trader (profit sharing, a 100% sure way the escort gets his pay, or any way possible)
I was trading as Skuld with Phaserlight as my escort. I gave him as pay 2x the sale price of teh widget I was selling at the station, and he was happy with that. I think that's a good rate. I think I'll ask him to escort again when I get back home.
well some syns don't follow that code, and who cares if they don't? he/she/it will just get kicked out and start pirating as a lone pirate...
Pirates and Griefers are totally different. Pirates at least deserves to keep testing. Griefers (well the real griefers), don't.
Pirates and Griefers are totally different. Pirates at least deserves to keep testing. Griefers (well the real griefers), don't.
Also another option celkan : 4) the pirated just think of it as a part of the game and just go on doing what they wre doing before.
But for the moment, there are just so many pirates :(. You can find in every sector almost all the time 1 pirate. sorry, in my opinion this is kinda over the top.
So the way it is today:
30% traders
60% pirates
I dont know, but it seems a little disproportional, in my opinion there should only be a 5% max of pirates on at all times.
And for the time being, I cant envision players pirating because they need the money, the most pirates already have more then that they can possibly use in their imaginations. But still they keep pirating. In my opinion, they just like it because it spices the game up for them and is an easier way to kill people and at the same time most of them dont see that they hurt the "test" community with it "as has been pointed out by celkan".
So im really looking forward to the 3.3 release, I hope it will decrease the number of pirates because their are other things"maybe a carreer as a piratehunter/pirate/trader/military guy/..." that they can do.
cheers
But for the moment, there are just so many pirates :(. You can find in every sector almost all the time 1 pirate. sorry, in my opinion this is kinda over the top.
So the way it is today:
30% traders
60% pirates
I dont know, but it seems a little disproportional, in my opinion there should only be a 5% max of pirates on at all times.
And for the time being, I cant envision players pirating because they need the money, the most pirates already have more then that they can possibly use in their imaginations. But still they keep pirating. In my opinion, they just like it because it spices the game up for them and is an easier way to kill people and at the same time most of them dont see that they hurt the "test" community with it "as has been pointed out by celkan".
So im really looking forward to the 3.3 release, I hope it will decrease the number of pirates because their are other things"maybe a carreer as a piratehunter/pirate/trader/military guy/..." that they can do.
cheers
pirates pirate right now for 1)fun of killing 2)fun of making other people be miserable (greifers fit here) 3)for money
It's normally 1, but there's a lot of 2s out there.
It's normally 1, but there's a lot of 2s out there.
Those who call themselves pirates in Vendetta are hardly ever truly pirates. They don't even ask if you are carrying cargo before blowing you up, let alone ask you to just jettison. I'm a 90% time trader, and usually if a Pirate were nice enough to ask for 80 or so % of my cargo, I will dump it if he lets me go freely the next few times I trade. Escorting also needs to be made into a bigger business as well, IMO.
~The Penguin
~The Penguin
I think the problem with the overflow of pirates comes from the insane money you can get from one measly hour of trading. It's rather easy for a person to make his ever-so-happy million, and go out pirating. Even if the pirate isn't very succesfull his million will last him at least 4 hours of pure game-time, if he is sucsesful, he'll just end up making more and more money. I expect the insane number of pirates to become a not-so-insane number with the arrival of 3.3.
Perhaps cargo could be dammaged or lost, but either way we need to make trading more profitable to the trader and not the pirate. A pirate should be very good at what he does, that way some n00b with a tri flare valk cant completly destroy any and all traders that come along.
How about when you die in a special ship you "dishonor your faction" and can't use one untill you play for 2 hours without it (don't even allow the use of stocked up specials)
Either that, or they would have to go to the Black Market to buy one, and that would probably harm their reputation with the guild even more.
A reputation system needs bonuses as well as penalties. For example, the really valuable stations would have reputation "thresholds" for docking permission, and would actively deter (read launch fighter fleets) at those they disapproved of, perhaps putting out a "call to arms" to friendly pilots in-sector, offering 5000c for the transponder of the offending pilot's ship.
P.S. Transponders! Sweet idea for bounty missions!
A reputation system needs bonuses as well as penalties. For example, the really valuable stations would have reputation "thresholds" for docking permission, and would actively deter (read launch fighter fleets) at those they disapproved of, perhaps putting out a "call to arms" to friendly pilots in-sector, offering 5000c for the transponder of the offending pilot's ship.
P.S. Transponders! Sweet idea for bounty missions!
/me likes the transponder idea
Heh, I can see it now. People competing to get each other's transponders, to collect bounties.
*ahem*
Back on topic, the problem IMNSHO is lack of accountability. Reputation and penalties for death will solve that.
*ahem*
Back on topic, the problem IMNSHO is lack of accountability. Reputation and penalties for death will solve that.
Well, I guess there's a difference between the old-school-pirates (alright, I'm tempted, but I won't post names :-)) and the new-school ones:
Till lately, I didn't mind pirates - they acted honourably, they gave you a fair chance of fighting, they gave you the chance of jettison the cargo (I never did - I enjoyed the quasi-duels with pirates, even when I didn't have a chance), they were reasonable (you could talk to them, they won't pirate you over and over again, etc) - this was fun, since it was something similar to a automatic duel. I even delibaretely choose to go to a s14 if I knew that a certain pirate was there - because of the fun we both had in the fights.
Right now, the fun factor of pirates is nil. Trading has come to end right now - because of all the pirates it's really impossible to complete even one traderun. Furthermore, the current crop of pirates is acting extremely dishonourably - I've encountered the following practises:
- Wormhole camping combined with rocket-ramming - no chance of evasion
- Claiming to be friendly/non-hostile to lure the victim. This should alert all honest players, since this affects the whole game - you can't be sure if the one who tells you to be non-hostile is really peacful.
- Ganging up on people, including back-stabbing.
This is very different from the old-school pirates - what also happened to me: I beat a pirate, my hull was down, pirate dead, pirate instantly respawning at the station, coming out and giving me the rest, just before I could dock. In any of the cases (including the instant-respawning thing) it's a no-win situation - you just haven't got the slightest chance to win.
Well - since the trading has practically stopped, the new-school-pirates are digging their own grave - if traders are completely discouraged, there isn't one who to pirate... unfortunately, the game becomes more boring for everyone :-/
In a nutshell - that's why the Vipers have been founded, the really fascinating thing about it: already one of the pirates/griefers complained about being griefed upon :-]
Ah, and silentsuicide: I haven't met one active pirate in the syndicate which acts honourably - basically, the members of the syndicate can be divided into two factions: a) the inactive pirates, who don't pirates b) the griefers/exploiters. So syn's code of honour is either pure hypocrasy or doesn't apply to the members - because they aren't pirating.
Regards,
Mark (Commander Jameson)
Till lately, I didn't mind pirates - they acted honourably, they gave you a fair chance of fighting, they gave you the chance of jettison the cargo (I never did - I enjoyed the quasi-duels with pirates, even when I didn't have a chance), they were reasonable (you could talk to them, they won't pirate you over and over again, etc) - this was fun, since it was something similar to a automatic duel. I even delibaretely choose to go to a s14 if I knew that a certain pirate was there - because of the fun we both had in the fights.
Right now, the fun factor of pirates is nil. Trading has come to end right now - because of all the pirates it's really impossible to complete even one traderun. Furthermore, the current crop of pirates is acting extremely dishonourably - I've encountered the following practises:
- Wormhole camping combined with rocket-ramming - no chance of evasion
- Claiming to be friendly/non-hostile to lure the victim. This should alert all honest players, since this affects the whole game - you can't be sure if the one who tells you to be non-hostile is really peacful.
- Ganging up on people, including back-stabbing.
This is very different from the old-school pirates - what also happened to me: I beat a pirate, my hull was down, pirate dead, pirate instantly respawning at the station, coming out and giving me the rest, just before I could dock. In any of the cases (including the instant-respawning thing) it's a no-win situation - you just haven't got the slightest chance to win.
Well - since the trading has practically stopped, the new-school-pirates are digging their own grave - if traders are completely discouraged, there isn't one who to pirate... unfortunately, the game becomes more boring for everyone :-/
In a nutshell - that's why the Vipers have been founded, the really fascinating thing about it: already one of the pirates/griefers complained about being griefed upon :-]
Ah, and silentsuicide: I haven't met one active pirate in the syndicate which acts honourably - basically, the members of the syndicate can be divided into two factions: a) the inactive pirates, who don't pirates b) the griefers/exploiters. So syn's code of honour is either pure hypocrasy or doesn't apply to the members - because they aren't pirating.
Regards,
Mark (Commander Jameson)
Yesh, pirates are good, and can be a pain. Pirates who just in turn are as close to a griefer as you can get (ahem... the EIG.) Im out looking for you. I dislike you guys. Do you really think some one in a Vult is making a trade run?
/me stops himself before i start talking out of hand.
But the Vipers have been formed, and they are here to protect against pirating, and they have a strict code i think. they are all friendly, and never are hostile(to the best of my knowlage.)
But i dont mind pirates who, actually try and give a fair fight. (warning you to drop your cargo or prepare to fight) and not having rockets. /me amature fair fight pirate.
/me stops himself before i start talking out of hand.
But the Vipers have been formed, and they are here to protect against pirating, and they have a strict code i think. they are all friendly, and never are hostile(to the best of my knowlage.)
But i dont mind pirates who, actually try and give a fair fight. (warning you to drop your cargo or prepare to fight) and not having rockets. /me amature fair fight pirate.
Got blasted earlier today by a viper while trading. Now, anyone that knows me knows you've only got one of my chars thats hostile at all without warning, and only then if i KNOW you are quite capable of handling yourself(i.e. FM, sam, icarus, etc)
no reason for them to target my centaur, but they did.
and no, I will not give out my pilot name, though to any vipers wanting to know which of them attacked a trader(and took what cargo they could carry as well before i returned in a rag) i would be quite willing to tell you if you find me ingame.
no reason for them to target my centaur, but they did.
and no, I will not give out my pilot name, though to any vipers wanting to know which of them attacked a trader(and took what cargo they could carry as well before i returned in a rag) i would be quite willing to tell you if you find me ingame.
I think pirates have a place. It's just that the market has been saturated with them and there is little room for anybody else. There are not that many roles to fill in Vendetta. Pirate, trader (which is all but pointless), and pirate hunter, which takes a lot of skill to pull of successfully.
Celkan, good post. IMNSHO, right now, the EiG folks need to be banned. They are acting exactly the same as the myg0t folks of Half-Life/Counterstrike. myg0t is known for A) cheating, B) racism, C) "raging the game". Their purpose is to make other players angry. That is how they (myg0t/EiG) have fun. It's unfortunate but it's true. I also feel that Guides should be given the ability to BAN for that kind of activity. And then the Guides need to USE that ability with EXTREME prejudice.
I used to run a Half-Life server. The only way to take care of these unfortunate individuals is to ban them. Keep them off of the server and out of the game. There is NO reasoning with them, there is no mature type discussions with them, nothing. Their purpose is to piss someone off any way they can. It is not FUN for guides to do this no BUT... speaking as a former server owner/admin, I KNOW that it's the only thing you CAN do to keep a clean and FUN server.
I used to run a Half-Life server. The only way to take care of these unfortunate individuals is to ban them. Keep them off of the server and out of the game. There is NO reasoning with them, there is no mature type discussions with them, nothing. Their purpose is to piss someone off any way they can. It is not FUN for guides to do this no BUT... speaking as a former server owner/admin, I KNOW that it's the only thing you CAN do to keep a clean and FUN server.
i completely agree with you, furball. i used to be a server admin of several half-life servers. i always had the ban command waiting for those damn myg0t members and anyone else who acted like them.