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I have no problem with Gray Space being dangerous. In fact I wish it were more dangerous since it is getting rather boring flying XCs in and out of there all day without even seeing a griefer, I mean “pirate.” Those few I do see I usually out run and those I don’t outrun, well no big deal.
On the other hand I would be willing to pay a reasonable “toll” for passage through the area if I thought that I had a chance of not getting shot after I paid it just for the points my ship was wroth.
As for rewarding people for kills, why should a griefer with 100 EC-89’s flown by noobs to his “credit” have the same status as a warrior who has a 100 hard fought battles to their credit? Sure that is an extreme example but the point is that not all “combat” is equal, so why should the reward be equal?
And who said anything about "consensual combat?" I am talking about “worthy combat” and popping an unarmed cargo ship is not on the same level as fighting another warship so why should the warship “pay” as many points as an EC?
On the other hand I would be willing to pay a reasonable “toll” for passage through the area if I thought that I had a chance of not getting shot after I paid it just for the points my ship was wroth.
As for rewarding people for kills, why should a griefer with 100 EC-89’s flown by noobs to his “credit” have the same status as a warrior who has a 100 hard fought battles to their credit? Sure that is an extreme example but the point is that not all “combat” is equal, so why should the reward be equal?
And who said anything about "consensual combat?" I am talking about “worthy combat” and popping an unarmed cargo ship is not on the same level as fighting another warship so why should the warship “pay” as many points as an EC?
Oh man... I will try to explain my statement about pirates in a simplistic manner.
Pirate = robs ships for a living
Main ways of securing income:
1. receiving payment from traders or just about anyone else to let them pass unharmed
2. forcing trader to drop cargo, picking it up and selling for profit
3. Shooting down running cargo ship, stealing its cargo and selling it for profit
@Angle of Death
Hailing is a courtesy not an obligation. If you dont hail you will never know if they are willing to pay or not.
You would be surprised how many combat pilots payed for a safe passage im my pirating days. :)
Pirate = robs ships for a living
Main ways of securing income:
1. receiving payment from traders or just about anyone else to let them pass unharmed
2. forcing trader to drop cargo, picking it up and selling for profit
3. Shooting down running cargo ship, stealing its cargo and selling it for profit
@Angle of Death
Hailing is a courtesy not an obligation. If you dont hail you will never know if they are willing to pay or not.
You would be surprised how many combat pilots payed for a safe passage im my pirating days. :)
so what you are trying to say is you want pirates to stop shooting cargo ships and start shooting fighting ships? as for the ec-89 and things like that a kill is a kill no matter how you chalk it up part of paying a pirate is that he WONT shoot you after you pay if that happens to you well to bad but I can honestly say every person that has payed me I have let go or escorted to where they wanted to go
@ Bojan and AoD: I still hail combat ships and get paid. After one or two times though they tend to just run, all power to them. Th only trader I never hail is Ecka and that is because he uses that medium range trade ship of his to so very well. I'd rather kill his voy.
There are still a few pirates left but we are few and far between. Hence the correct rundown of guilds from Bojan..
There are still a few pirates left but we are few and far between. Hence the correct rundown of guilds from Bojan..
Sigh. Is reading really that hard? No I do not want "pirates" to stop shooting at cargo ships that refuse to pay. I just don't want the cargo ships to be "worth" more as a PK then as a paying customer of the pirate.
All griefers want is the PK points and most that I have met could care less how they get them or even if the trader is willing to pay. So, why bother paying anyone?
Real pirates, throughout history and clear up until the modern day, did not sink every ship they encountered. If they had done that they would quickly have been out of business since the cargo would have been destroyed along with the ship.
So, if the griefer can have a PK added to their "credit" PLUS take a cargo then where is the incentive to act like a pirate? Remove the points for cargo ships, and destroy the cargo along with the ship, and cargo ships become more valuable as sources of ransoms rather that PK points. Now we can take the pirate seriously.
All griefers want is the PK points and most that I have met could care less how they get them or even if the trader is willing to pay. So, why bother paying anyone?
Real pirates, throughout history and clear up until the modern day, did not sink every ship they encountered. If they had done that they would quickly have been out of business since the cargo would have been destroyed along with the ship.
So, if the griefer can have a PK added to their "credit" PLUS take a cargo then where is the incentive to act like a pirate? Remove the points for cargo ships, and destroy the cargo along with the ship, and cargo ships become more valuable as sources of ransoms rather that PK points. Now we can take the pirate seriously.
A quick note: PK points are pretty much worthless. The only thing they get you is better rails, which most pirates probably don't care about. I can pretty much guarantee that griefers aren't killing buses for the PK point, they're killing buses to kill buses. Take away the PK point and they will still kill buses. Because they're griefers, and they want to cause grief. Changing the mechanic will not change the people, some people just want to kill, and they don't care about any rewards for it.
@ peytros. you aren't reading what he's saying, just reacting cause its fun. please... this is the general discussion thread, not another 100.
It is true that there are very few rats on. tumble and ret have taken their leave, and they were some of the last few "rats" in the verse. And the point that's being made about combat ships vs moths is not the one you think it is. The point is that it would be interesting for hard combat (battleship v battleship) to give a greater reward over soft combat (hunter v moth). we are in no way suggestion the former should be the only kind of battle. if soft combat were less rewarding on the pk meter, it might encourage the griefers out there to request payment or try to earn a profit other than a high pk ranking... in true pirate fashion. yes, pirates used to fly under nation flags (and you really didn't know that until a couple nights ago??), but they still tried to profit from their actions. Ships that weren't worth shooting at weren't shot at. Ships that gave up their cargoes were not shot at, and if they were it was to prevent them from giving away their location (which in the verse is pointless due to 100).
and traders, do make it into grey. its more fun for all of us. just get some escorts! Hell, when escorts are free and good quality, how can you refuse? :)
@ diqrtvpe: adv rails are really, really damned profitable. granted, rats wouldn't know that...
It is true that there are very few rats on. tumble and ret have taken their leave, and they were some of the last few "rats" in the verse. And the point that's being made about combat ships vs moths is not the one you think it is. The point is that it would be interesting for hard combat (battleship v battleship) to give a greater reward over soft combat (hunter v moth). we are in no way suggestion the former should be the only kind of battle. if soft combat were less rewarding on the pk meter, it might encourage the griefers out there to request payment or try to earn a profit other than a high pk ranking... in true pirate fashion. yes, pirates used to fly under nation flags (and you really didn't know that until a couple nights ago??), but they still tried to profit from their actions. Ships that weren't worth shooting at weren't shot at. Ships that gave up their cargoes were not shot at, and if they were it was to prevent them from giving away their location (which in the verse is pointless due to 100).
and traders, do make it into grey. its more fun for all of us. just get some escorts! Hell, when escorts are free and good quality, how can you refuse? :)
@ diqrtvpe: adv rails are really, really damned profitable. granted, rats wouldn't know that...
I think the classifications of pirate, griefers and others need definitions. Thankfully VPR has provided one here:
http://www.viperguild.com/wiki/index.php5?title=Pirate_Classifications
There are few "Classic Pirates" in the vo universe anymore. Most are just "Barely Pirates" and griefers. Its sad but everything must change :(
http://www.viperguild.com/wiki/index.php5?title=Pirate_Classifications
There are few "Classic Pirates" in the vo universe anymore. Most are just "Barely Pirates" and griefers. Its sad but everything must change :(
Very well said Aticephyr. If pirates have any incentive other than money for shooting at me then why would I have any incentive to stop and pay? As it stands now there is, for me at least, no practical difference between a “pirate” and a mindless bot except the bot is not as likely to talk smack afterwards.
See bot, run from bot or shoot at bot. See pirate, run from pirate or shoot at pirate. Same-o, same-o. Pirates need to be something more than slightly smarter bots to be any fun. Otherwise I would just as soon see the developers start fielding a better grade of “pirate bot.” At least they would be fun to play against.
See bot, run from bot or shoot at bot. See pirate, run from pirate or shoot at pirate. Same-o, same-o. Pirates need to be something more than slightly smarter bots to be any fun. Otherwise I would just as soon see the developers start fielding a better grade of “pirate bot.” At least they would be fun to play against.
JestatisBess, that link says it all! Almost every "pirate" I have met falls in to the last two categories and, because of that, I end up treating the top two categories the same way I treat the bottom ones—they are all just talking bots to me.
This can’t be any fun for the real pirates who take pride in their work and are willing to play their roles properly. Griefers and “almost pirates” spoil it for the real pirates. If that is the best we can expect from the tribe I say give us some high class bots to fill the gap and make Gray Space more interesting.
This can’t be any fun for the real pirates who take pride in their work and are willing to play their roles properly. Griefers and “almost pirates” spoil it for the real pirates. If that is the best we can expect from the tribe I say give us some high class bots to fill the gap and make Gray Space more interesting.
DRIED MEAT! Oh thanks be to Eo!
Hmm, I'm not sure what good people think will come of holding "bad guys" up to some fantasy standard. Players are random humans, each trying to have fun in their own way. If unhappy friction tends to result from this then the devs are at fault, not any group of players.
You can't really instill a sense of danger without real danger. People will use the destructive powers granted to them. The trick is to give everyone a fair chance. As it stands, nothing stops traders from getting an escort.
If you want Grey to be more interesting, then suggest gameplay changes that will encourage non-consensual pvpers not to quit VO in boredom. Incentives for traders to enter Grey do help. I don't buy that the challenges presented by the chaotic types can't be overcome. If there's enough of a reward, traders will find a way. Making interception easier would also help.
PK points don't exist. And besides, most trade ships are capable fighters.
I don't see what's wrong with securing cargo by exploding a ship.
You can't really instill a sense of danger without real danger. People will use the destructive powers granted to them. The trick is to give everyone a fair chance. As it stands, nothing stops traders from getting an escort.
If you want Grey to be more interesting, then suggest gameplay changes that will encourage non-consensual pvpers not to quit VO in boredom. Incentives for traders to enter Grey do help. I don't buy that the challenges presented by the chaotic types can't be overcome. If there's enough of a reward, traders will find a way. Making interception easier would also help.
PK points don't exist. And besides, most trade ships are capable fighters.
I don't see what's wrong with securing cargo by exploding a ship.
If you explode the ship 98% of the cargo should be destroyed
Don't pop the ship and you can ransom/annex him/her for 5/10/20/30% of the worth of the cargo (or the profit) upon delivery. Make it a specific hail which the trader can decline or accept. When the person declines you can pop a couple shots into him to coerce him/her to accept the new hail until either they die or they accept. When multiple pirates come after the same trader then only 1 can get cargo, but the trader can still accept his hail resetting the annexing to the other 'pirate'. Thus effectively setting up both pierats against each other.
See pirates fight over this ship is the stuff i want to see instead of blasting one tradeship after another.
That would bring in way more interaction and fun then the simple muahahaha die. Since if that happens multiple times to the same person this person is going to just keep trading safely in nation territory. And pierats are going to be bored.
But just my slumbering opinion
Don't pop the ship and you can ransom/annex him/her for 5/10/20/30% of the worth of the cargo (or the profit) upon delivery. Make it a specific hail which the trader can decline or accept. When the person declines you can pop a couple shots into him to coerce him/her to accept the new hail until either they die or they accept. When multiple pirates come after the same trader then only 1 can get cargo, but the trader can still accept his hail resetting the annexing to the other 'pirate'. Thus effectively setting up both pierats against each other.
See pirates fight over this ship is the stuff i want to see instead of blasting one tradeship after another.
That would bring in way more interaction and fun then the simple muahahaha die. Since if that happens multiple times to the same person this person is going to just keep trading safely in nation territory. And pierats are going to be bored.
But just my slumbering opinion
Pointsman. No one is trying to hold anyone to any standard at all. To do so will only fail and would make the game dull and artificial. What needs to be changed are the “structural glitches in the game” that encourage and reward certain types of behavior that run counter to the role of the pirate. The whole idea is to provide a PVP environment where fun and interesting interactions are more likely to happen.
As it now stands the “role” of pirate could be filled by a better grade of bot since there is no discernable difference in the behavior between bots and “pirates” other than the fact that the level of conversation is higher with the bots.
I would like to see MORE encounters between pirates and their “clients” not less but I would like them to at least approach the behavior that one could traditionally expect with real pirates. I am sure you don’t see what is wrong with cargo being left over after the ship that was carrying it was violently destroyed but that is not what would happen in “real life” and it encourages a certain sort of lazy, sloppy and boring game play.
If the pirate destroys the trader he should get zip, no PK, no cargo, nothing. Does that mean that pirates will give up destroying traders? Get real, of course not. But it will encourage them to play their part properly. They will still destroy fleeing traders to “teach them a lesson” they just won’t get rewarded for shooting first and not bothering to ask questions at all.
If that were to happen I would be very much in favor of making interception easier and have proposed a few ideas along those lines. Fog, plus roids (or maybe even mines) in key ambush areas would make running a whole lot harder. Connecting the loss of certain cargos with the loss of faction would then make paying rather risk running a much more attractive option. Other ideas to help improve interception chances would also be welcome.
Then, with lots of reward for going into Gray Space, coupled with realistic pirates, far more interesting encounters that “see the bot, run from the bot, see the pirate run from the pirate” scenarios would develop naturally.
As it now stands the “role” of pirate could be filled by a better grade of bot since there is no discernable difference in the behavior between bots and “pirates” other than the fact that the level of conversation is higher with the bots.
I would like to see MORE encounters between pirates and their “clients” not less but I would like them to at least approach the behavior that one could traditionally expect with real pirates. I am sure you don’t see what is wrong with cargo being left over after the ship that was carrying it was violently destroyed but that is not what would happen in “real life” and it encourages a certain sort of lazy, sloppy and boring game play.
If the pirate destroys the trader he should get zip, no PK, no cargo, nothing. Does that mean that pirates will give up destroying traders? Get real, of course not. But it will encourage them to play their part properly. They will still destroy fleeing traders to “teach them a lesson” they just won’t get rewarded for shooting first and not bothering to ask questions at all.
If that were to happen I would be very much in favor of making interception easier and have proposed a few ideas along those lines. Fog, plus roids (or maybe even mines) in key ambush areas would make running a whole lot harder. Connecting the loss of certain cargos with the loss of faction would then make paying rather risk running a much more attractive option. Other ideas to help improve interception chances would also be welcome.
Then, with lots of reward for going into Gray Space, coupled with realistic pirates, far more interesting encounters that “see the bot, run from the bot, see the pirate run from the pirate” scenarios would develop naturally.
vo has pirates ?
Renegade xxRIPxx, outstanding suggestions, one and all! The only thing I can think of to add would to tie the loss of top cargoes to the loss of faction and not merely money.
As a wealthy trader I could care squat for the loss of money but the idea of having a good customer pissed at me and denying me the privileges of high status (which should be increased in order to make their loss more painful) send chills down my spine. :)
Your ideas are certainly moving in the right direction!
As a wealthy trader I could care squat for the loss of money but the idea of having a good customer pissed at me and denying me the privileges of high status (which should be increased in order to make their loss more painful) send chills down my spine. :)
Your ideas are certainly moving in the right direction!
In reply to Armonia's question "VO has pirates?" The answer is no, but with luck we will develop some.
please someone bury this thread.... For they obviously don't know what they are talking about.
If killing a trader doesn't drop anything I'd have to trade, escort or even mine (shudder) to keep me in the business because 9 out of 10 traders RUN OR FIGHT. Get it into those thick skulls.
You are tired of griefers/PK'ers and their ilk. Right, I can understand that, they can be annoying and even bothersome at times. If you want to be safe from them, stay out of grey, hire an escort or become Ecka.
However............. If you DO get pirated, the following things can happen:
1. You stop moving with your trade ship. Pay the ransom. Go off on your merry trip to lala land. Next time you meet that pirate, she/he hails you with a friendly hail BECAUSE YOU PAID! The effect lasts for around a day.
2. You run. You die. Next time you will still get hailed and get to choose.
3. You shoot at me. You die. Next time I'll fire at you unless YOU stop and wants to pay.
4. You call me names. You die and go on the KOS list.
5. You have an arrangement with a pirate guild. Costs a fair bit, but then you have immunity from the members and they will even help you out.
So, decide how your response will be but please stop whining.
If killing a trader doesn't drop anything I'd have to trade, escort or even mine (shudder) to keep me in the business because 9 out of 10 traders RUN OR FIGHT. Get it into those thick skulls.
You are tired of griefers/PK'ers and their ilk. Right, I can understand that, they can be annoying and even bothersome at times. If you want to be safe from them, stay out of grey, hire an escort or become Ecka.
However............. If you DO get pirated, the following things can happen:
1. You stop moving with your trade ship. Pay the ransom. Go off on your merry trip to lala land. Next time you meet that pirate, she/he hails you with a friendly hail BECAUSE YOU PAID! The effect lasts for around a day.
2. You run. You die. Next time you will still get hailed and get to choose.
3. You shoot at me. You die. Next time I'll fire at you unless YOU stop and wants to pay.
4. You call me names. You die and go on the KOS list.
5. You have an arrangement with a pirate guild. Costs a fair bit, but then you have immunity from the members and they will even help you out.
So, decide how your response will be but please stop whining.
Azumi The only whining around seems to be coming from you.
Pirates should live by pirating, not by acting like mindless bots. If the game structure is changed so that pirates get nothing for blowing up a ship AND we make interception easier AND we threaten the trader with loss of faction if he loses his cargo by being blown up, then the trader will have a real incentive to deal with the pirate rather than run and risk being blown up and the pirate will have a real incentive to pirate instead of blow up everything that moves.
Simply shooting at everything that moves is the sign of a lazy and low skilled "almost pirate" If that is all they are good for then I would just as soon see a better grade of bot fill the job. At least their conversational skills are better than those of the "almost pirate."
Pirates should live by pirating, not by acting like mindless bots. If the game structure is changed so that pirates get nothing for blowing up a ship AND we make interception easier AND we threaten the trader with loss of faction if he loses his cargo by being blown up, then the trader will have a real incentive to deal with the pirate rather than run and risk being blown up and the pirate will have a real incentive to pirate instead of blow up everything that moves.
Simply shooting at everything that moves is the sign of a lazy and low skilled "almost pirate" If that is all they are good for then I would just as soon see a better grade of bot fill the job. At least their conversational skills are better than those of the "almost pirate."
lensman basicly what you are saying is you are upset that people are stealing your cargoes because you didn't get someone to escort you through grey space and now you are complaining because people arn't pirating the way you want them to pirate. Your idea with trade ships makes no sense how do we define trade ship? a centaur is a ship used for trading and it makes a great pvp tank so should people not get any points for killing centaurs anymore? IF the trader is not going to loose their cargo to a pirate they will simply not pay and no one is going to take cargo that looses them faction standing if they get blown up in grey atleast not alone