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Antz: The answer is Spice (and Sweets)!
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/19695
I may take a more comprehensive look at how to make it work if a workable bounty system gets instituted.
P.S. Hallucinogens and uppers? Both would be highly sought after to break the monotony of space travel.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/19695
I may take a more comprehensive look at how to make it work if a workable bounty system gets instituted.
P.S. Hallucinogens and uppers? Both would be highly sought after to break the monotony of space travel.
I must say that I like the direction that all the recent changes at VO are taking us in and none quite so much as the new trading opportunities in Gray Space. I have an idea for a new cargo type that I think may help take us even farther along the path that these great new chances are leading. How about small, extremely valuable cargoes that cannot be stock piled, or even replaced until the first cargo is sold?
It would work like this. An isotope or other item that is extremely dangerous as the quantity approaches “critical mass” is cheap in some nation space stations but highly sought after in gray space.
Because of the danger of concentrating too much of this item in any one place very strict laws, as well as safety regulations, prevent stations from selling any trader more than say 16 cu of the isotope and forbids the merchant from storing it at all once purchased. No station is willing to take the risk. The trader must therefore get it to the customer and get it sold before he can pick up another such cargo.
If any more than 16 cu of the isotope is ever brought together in the same place it will reach “critical mass” and the ship carrying it will explode.
The isotope should sell for a price similar to a the price an entire Behemoth XC load of one of the new cargos fetches but take up far less room in a ship.
This would make small fast and combat worthy ships the ideal carrier of the cargo thereby allowing lower level characters who lack the licenses to get Moths to take part in this lucrative but dangerous trade. It would also give missions to many of the sorts of ships the more advanced players stop using once they can get larger cargo haulers.
These cargos would also allow the warrior merchant to fight his way through the pirates and would also allow the pirates to pick up the cargo in their own, smaller, craft as well, meaning that they have a great incentive to go after such targets.
As I see it this is a win for all concerned. New players can jump into the dangerous and exciting trade high value cargo hauling, and be lured into Gray Space, combat oriented players can trade and fight at the same time and pirates can salvage cargoes without having to go back to base to fetch a moth.
We might even be able to lower the outrageous payments for “escorting” convoys and still allow the combat enthusiasts to make the money they need for new ships and weapons.
One final idea. Perhaps the cargo could be time critical and need to be delivered within a few hours of being purchased or it would---lose its value—explode—cause the pilot to develop hair loss and bad breath or stink up the ship’s cargo bay---whatever.
It would work like this. An isotope or other item that is extremely dangerous as the quantity approaches “critical mass” is cheap in some nation space stations but highly sought after in gray space.
Because of the danger of concentrating too much of this item in any one place very strict laws, as well as safety regulations, prevent stations from selling any trader more than say 16 cu of the isotope and forbids the merchant from storing it at all once purchased. No station is willing to take the risk. The trader must therefore get it to the customer and get it sold before he can pick up another such cargo.
If any more than 16 cu of the isotope is ever brought together in the same place it will reach “critical mass” and the ship carrying it will explode.
The isotope should sell for a price similar to a the price an entire Behemoth XC load of one of the new cargos fetches but take up far less room in a ship.
This would make small fast and combat worthy ships the ideal carrier of the cargo thereby allowing lower level characters who lack the licenses to get Moths to take part in this lucrative but dangerous trade. It would also give missions to many of the sorts of ships the more advanced players stop using once they can get larger cargo haulers.
These cargos would also allow the warrior merchant to fight his way through the pirates and would also allow the pirates to pick up the cargo in their own, smaller, craft as well, meaning that they have a great incentive to go after such targets.
As I see it this is a win for all concerned. New players can jump into the dangerous and exciting trade high value cargo hauling, and be lured into Gray Space, combat oriented players can trade and fight at the same time and pirates can salvage cargoes without having to go back to base to fetch a moth.
We might even be able to lower the outrageous payments for “escorting” convoys and still allow the combat enthusiasts to make the money they need for new ships and weapons.
One final idea. Perhaps the cargo could be time critical and need to be delivered within a few hours of being purchased or it would---lose its value—explode—cause the pilot to develop hair loss and bad breath or stink up the ship’s cargo bay---whatever.
This would make small fast and combat worthy ships the ideal carrier of the cargo thereby allowing lower level characters who lack the licenses to get Moths to take part in this lucrative but dangerous trade.
Brilliant idea: make ships too fast to catch into viable trade ships! Your idea is utter fail unless this "isotope" weighs about ten times as much as samoflange.
Brilliant idea: make ships too fast to catch into viable trade ships! Your idea is utter fail unless this "isotope" weighs about ten times as much as samoflange.
Is that a problem? So make it heavy. Either that or have the pirates develop new tactics. Perhaps they can work out ways to use the new fog banks that are still in the development stages to lay ambushes.
The point is that the pirates could pick up the loot after the fight without having to leave it floating in space until they return with a Moth.
The other thing is that it would allow those who do not normally trade, perhaps even the pirates themselves, to have cargoes that they could carry in their fighters and thereby eliminate the need for those boring and pointless "escort missions" whose chief function seems to be providing money for the combat types to buy ships and weapons.
There are some traders who will not go into Gray Space now even with the new cargos so this at least helps lure more players into that area. What the pirates do with this increased traffic is up to them. They can’t have things their way all the time. These cargoes would not replace the larger ones, only add more things to haul to the list. If too many people hauled them then the price would go down just like any other cargo.
The point is that the pirates could pick up the loot after the fight without having to leave it floating in space until they return with a Moth.
The other thing is that it would allow those who do not normally trade, perhaps even the pirates themselves, to have cargoes that they could carry in their fighters and thereby eliminate the need for those boring and pointless "escort missions" whose chief function seems to be providing money for the combat types to buy ships and weapons.
There are some traders who will not go into Gray Space now even with the new cargos so this at least helps lure more players into that area. What the pirates do with this increased traffic is up to them. They can’t have things their way all the time. These cargoes would not replace the larger ones, only add more things to haul to the list. If too many people hauled them then the price would go down just like any other cargo.
Dr. Lecter: lensman67 might be right here. Pirates do need to change their tactics. Maybe having something like ctc cargo thats very valuable but in grey not nation space in small quantities would help bring more trade to grey. I know its hard to reach my top speed on a hog mk ii with 8 cu of pure xith let alone 16cu.
lensman67: post in the suggestions forum Read the ctc/xith tread first that might be part of your answer.
lensman67: post in the suggestions forum Read the ctc/xith tread first that might be part of your answer.
Really? He is? Well . . . shoot! Oh, wait: you and he claim "pirates need to change their tactics," a false statement aside from some new items that encourage team piracy. Traders won't go to Grey because the new routes (predictably) suck and they can make an excellent living in Nation space. One or both of those facts--not the pirates--need to change. The Devs will get around to it "Soon."
And pirates using storms/the fog is such an old fucking joke that I laugh every time I see it suggested as a serious tactic. Does. Not. Work. Largely because nobody spends much time in such places. Fog the Grey WHs, and shrink their jump sphere diameter, and then we'll see fog getting used.
And pirates using storms/the fog is such an old fucking joke that I laugh every time I see it suggested as a serious tactic. Does. Not. Work. Largely because nobody spends much time in such places. Fog the Grey WHs, and shrink their jump sphere diameter, and then we'll see fog getting used.
I hate to be the one to break it to you but there are more people playing this game besides the pirates. Merchants are not simply targets for the rats, they have their own goals and objectives that do not include the pirates.
This cargo, and the other high value ones as well, have as one of their goals the increase in traffic in to and out of Gray. What the pirates do with that increased traffic is up to them but we can not base each and every new development in the game on whether or not it makes the hearts of the pirates go pitty-pat.
Besides, many of the combat types who will not trade themselves complain that they need ways to make enough money to keep them in ships and weapons. Small cargos that they can carry in their fighters is one possible solution. Hopefully small, high value, cargoes, will reduce the need for the absurdly high pay levels of the so called “escorts missions” while, at the same time, channeling more traffic into Gray.
This cargo, and the other high value ones as well, have as one of their goals the increase in traffic in to and out of Gray. What the pirates do with that increased traffic is up to them but we can not base each and every new development in the game on whether or not it makes the hearts of the pirates go pitty-pat.
Besides, many of the combat types who will not trade themselves complain that they need ways to make enough money to keep them in ships and weapons. Small cargos that they can carry in their fighters is one possible solution. Hopefully small, high value, cargoes, will reduce the need for the absurdly high pay levels of the so called “escorts missions” while, at the same time, channeling more traffic into Gray.
Fogging the Gray WH and shrinking their size are both excellent suggestions and would increase the chances that someone flying a small ship with this sort of cargo would "meet up" with someone interested in carrying the cargo the rest of the way.
Then the cat would be among the pigeons and the pirate and warrior merchant could have a high old time debating the matter. At least the pirates would now be “picking on someone their own size.”
Then the cat would be among the pigeons and the pirate and warrior merchant could have a high old time debating the matter. At least the pirates would now be “picking on someone their own size.”
Now that the licensing levels for ships and weapons have been introduced in Gray Space the prize that lured many new players into Gray Space in the first place is gone.
Small, high value cargoes, would provide a new lure for the beginning player, the ones that are not as adept at out running or out fighting pirates while, at the same time, providing a very high payoff for the pirate who is able to relieve the neophyte of their burdens.
With small, high value cargoes, a pirate attacking a noob in an EC-89 will have a chance at a golden payoff for their efforts in educating the next generation of VO players.
Small, high value cargoes, would provide a new lure for the beginning player, the ones that are not as adept at out running or out fighting pirates while, at the same time, providing a very high payoff for the pirate who is able to relieve the neophyte of their burdens.
With small, high value cargoes, a pirate attacking a noob in an EC-89 will have a chance at a golden payoff for their efforts in educating the next generation of VO players.
Since your remarks reveal you to be a bit slow on the uptake and a tad narrow in your thinking, I'll spell it out in small words for you, lensman67.
Your idea is brutally stupid because trade, which is very much its own thing and a much larger part of the game than is piracy, is balanced largely by the need for larger, slower, TRADE SPECIFIC ships to conduct larger profit trading operations.
Your idea proposes to make any ship an equally viable trade ship for a substantially profitable trading operation. This is, of course, completely idiotic. Even worse is the fact that, by capping carrying capacity at artifically low levels for any cargo hold, there is no profit upside for the more advanced trade ships.
I proposed a massive weight per cu in an attempt to counteract your idea's shortcomings, thereby rendering smaller, faster ships just as balanced as a laden Moth or Taur. However, upon further reflection, your idea's other failings are even worse than its potential to make a Hog Mk II into a viable trade vessel.
(1) Making Trade Money for Combat Pilots: of the combat types who will not trade themselves complain that they need ways to make enough money to keep them in ships and weapons Yeah, it's called combat missions. You know, those things that fighters--not traders--do? They can get paid for them! Border skirmish, hive hunting, botting missions, and escort duty are all ways for these players to make money. The whole point of them is that they don't profit from trade. Making their fighter ships into trade ships "because they need credits, too" is about the dumbest idea I've heard.
(2) We Need More Noobs In Grey: Small, high value cargoes, would provide a new lure for the beginning player, the ones that are not as adept at out running or out fighting pirates while, at the same time, providing a very high payoff for the pirate who is able to relieve the neophyte of their burdens. No, we don't. We kill them, they get pissy, then they quit--it's a bad cycle for VO, even if it's sorta fun for us. To the extent that your idea encourages these clueless babies to invest their hard earned credits in a small but valuable cargo and run it through Grey . . . it's terrible.
(3) Warrior-Merchants: At least the pirates would now be “picking on someone their own size.” Great! You can make equal profit with a SCP partially loaded with isotope or a Moth loaded with Helio . . . that doesn't gut the role of trade ships or anything. No, today's merchant can have it all! Safety! High profits! Low risk! No need to either be fast/well armed and make smaller profits per run, or be weak/slow and make big returns. Now, thanks to lensman67, traders can avoid ever flying trade ships!
Next up, lensman67 will reveal his new concept: 100,000 credits for successfully docking any ship with a station.
P.S. Now that the licensing levels for ships and weapons have been introduced in Gray Space the prize that lured many new players into Gray Space in the first place is gone.
While I never liked the fact that there were license levels for ships/weapons at Corvus--rather than standing and cash only--this isn't new. Maybe if you'd shut the hell up for a few months after starting and actually pay attention to what has been/is being said, you'd have figured that out.
Your idea is brutally stupid because trade, which is very much its own thing and a much larger part of the game than is piracy, is balanced largely by the need for larger, slower, TRADE SPECIFIC ships to conduct larger profit trading operations.
Your idea proposes to make any ship an equally viable trade ship for a substantially profitable trading operation. This is, of course, completely idiotic. Even worse is the fact that, by capping carrying capacity at artifically low levels for any cargo hold, there is no profit upside for the more advanced trade ships.
I proposed a massive weight per cu in an attempt to counteract your idea's shortcomings, thereby rendering smaller, faster ships just as balanced as a laden Moth or Taur. However, upon further reflection, your idea's other failings are even worse than its potential to make a Hog Mk II into a viable trade vessel.
(1) Making Trade Money for Combat Pilots: of the combat types who will not trade themselves complain that they need ways to make enough money to keep them in ships and weapons Yeah, it's called combat missions. You know, those things that fighters--not traders--do? They can get paid for them! Border skirmish, hive hunting, botting missions, and escort duty are all ways for these players to make money. The whole point of them is that they don't profit from trade. Making their fighter ships into trade ships "because they need credits, too" is about the dumbest idea I've heard.
(2) We Need More Noobs In Grey: Small, high value cargoes, would provide a new lure for the beginning player, the ones that are not as adept at out running or out fighting pirates while, at the same time, providing a very high payoff for the pirate who is able to relieve the neophyte of their burdens. No, we don't. We kill them, they get pissy, then they quit--it's a bad cycle for VO, even if it's sorta fun for us. To the extent that your idea encourages these clueless babies to invest their hard earned credits in a small but valuable cargo and run it through Grey . . . it's terrible.
(3) Warrior-Merchants: At least the pirates would now be “picking on someone their own size.” Great! You can make equal profit with a SCP partially loaded with isotope or a Moth loaded with Helio . . . that doesn't gut the role of trade ships or anything. No, today's merchant can have it all! Safety! High profits! Low risk! No need to either be fast/well armed and make smaller profits per run, or be weak/slow and make big returns. Now, thanks to lensman67, traders can avoid ever flying trade ships!
Next up, lensman67 will reveal his new concept: 100,000 credits for successfully docking any ship with a station.
P.S. Now that the licensing levels for ships and weapons have been introduced in Gray Space the prize that lured many new players into Gray Space in the first place is gone.
While I never liked the fact that there were license levels for ships/weapons at Corvus--rather than standing and cash only--this isn't new. Maybe if you'd shut the hell up for a few months after starting and actually pay attention to what has been/is being said, you'd have figured that out.
Thank you for your opinion. If you can't be civil however I see no point in discussing the matter with you. Besides this idea will stand or fall or whether it appeals to the other players and not on whether or not you like it.
This discussion is drawing out the pros and cons of the idea (ok, just the cons) for the larger player base. If you fail to respond to my points, despite your distaste for my tone, you effectively concede those points.
Of course, your "you're mean and I don't have to reply" approach is typically the last bastion of someone without a rational reply. Ta.
Of course, your "you're mean and I don't have to reply" approach is typically the last bastion of someone without a rational reply. Ta.
Life is too short to waste time debating trolls.
Lecter's not a troll, he just has no reservations about holding back his inner asshole. but either way he's right, once you've been playing a bit longer you'll see that too.
I have been playing for a long time and I don't see it at all.
It is not as though all the cargoes are going to be small and high value, only one, or perhaps a few. They will only have a very limited market, all of which would be in Gray Space, and if there was too much supply then demand, and therefore price, would go down just like any other cargo.
If combat missions paied enough to keep the PK crowd happy then there would be no need for the absurd pay for the so called "escort missions." Besides, it is not as though this would replace any of the combat missions, it would simply be one more way to make money, and then only under certain conditions. If too many people trade in this cargo then the price will go down.
Another approach would to make the cargo rare and seldom available even in Nation Space so that a merchant could not trade in the isotope and nothing else. Perhaps stations would ration how much they sold to any given merchant per day. Whatever technique that is decided on there would still be just as many missions for regular cargo ships, this cargo simply adds more variety and texture to the game.
That is the trouble with simplistic thinkers. To them everything is all or nothing, they have a great deal of trouble comprehending nuance.
It is not as though all the cargoes are going to be small and high value, only one, or perhaps a few. They will only have a very limited market, all of which would be in Gray Space, and if there was too much supply then demand, and therefore price, would go down just like any other cargo.
If combat missions paied enough to keep the PK crowd happy then there would be no need for the absurd pay for the so called "escort missions." Besides, it is not as though this would replace any of the combat missions, it would simply be one more way to make money, and then only under certain conditions. If too many people trade in this cargo then the price will go down.
Another approach would to make the cargo rare and seldom available even in Nation Space so that a merchant could not trade in the isotope and nothing else. Perhaps stations would ration how much they sold to any given merchant per day. Whatever technique that is decided on there would still be just as many missions for regular cargo ships, this cargo simply adds more variety and texture to the game.
That is the trouble with simplistic thinkers. To them everything is all or nothing, they have a great deal of trouble comprehending nuance.
facepalm.jpg
Without getting into the specifics of this debate, I would like to point out the one shortcoming in your philosophy (perceived anyway): that pirates aren't absolutely integral to the balancing of trade. Pirates are the antithesis of traders, and much like the Serco/Itani conflict, neither would be anything without the other. While I understand there are certain types of traders who enjoy the unfettered gathering of wealth, there exists also certain Itanis who want nothing to do at all with the conflict.
Aside from bots (who are a challenge to only the newbs), there are no other entities in the game that offer traders any sort of risk to survival. And vice versa. Any changes made to empower pirates absolutely must be weighed against the inherent imbalances they might create for traders.
Anyway, yes, I guess you could call me biased as the majority of my playing days were (and will be) spent pirating the trade lanes of greyspace, but I seriously believe that were pirates to become anymore inherently ineffectual than they already are, trading would be much less exciting than it is currently.
Aside from bots (who are a challenge to only the newbs), there are no other entities in the game that offer traders any sort of risk to survival. And vice versa. Any changes made to empower pirates absolutely must be weighed against the inherent imbalances they might create for traders.
Anyway, yes, I guess you could call me biased as the majority of my playing days were (and will be) spent pirating the trade lanes of greyspace, but I seriously believe that were pirates to become anymore inherently ineffectual than they already are, trading would be much less exciting than it is currently.
I, in no way, doubt the role of pirates in the game which is why I feel this cargo would be a benefit to them. Finally loot that they can carry off in their fighters instead of leaving it floating in space until they can return with a Moth to scoop up what’s left after any passer byes have taken their share.
It would also give those, like many of the pirate clan, a cargo that they could trade in without having to “lower” themselves to flying cargo ships which, judging by some of the conversations I have heard on VO, is something many are loath to do.
My comment is that not every change at VO had to be geared to them and them alone. There is much to be said to catering to other players as well. However I hope that my cargo idea does both.
Other ways of helping the pirates, such as fogging some of the Worm Holes and shrinking their size, would also add excitement to the encounters between small cargo haulers and the freebooter fraternity.
Perhaps winding pathways between fog banks would produce natural ambush points where merchant ships drop out of hyperspace before making the next jump. These points should be filled with roids so that the merchant can not simply pop in and then pop out again without having to fly to a jump point.
VO should be like onions, it should have layers. Any new idea to add depth and texture to the game should be debated, and perhaps given a short trial, instead of being dismissed out of hand without examining ways to improve on the idea.
It would also give those, like many of the pirate clan, a cargo that they could trade in without having to “lower” themselves to flying cargo ships which, judging by some of the conversations I have heard on VO, is something many are loath to do.
My comment is that not every change at VO had to be geared to them and them alone. There is much to be said to catering to other players as well. However I hope that my cargo idea does both.
Other ways of helping the pirates, such as fogging some of the Worm Holes and shrinking their size, would also add excitement to the encounters between small cargo haulers and the freebooter fraternity.
Perhaps winding pathways between fog banks would produce natural ambush points where merchant ships drop out of hyperspace before making the next jump. These points should be filled with roids so that the merchant can not simply pop in and then pop out again without having to fly to a jump point.
VO should be like onions, it should have layers. Any new idea to add depth and texture to the game should be debated, and perhaps given a short trial, instead of being dismissed out of hand without examining ways to improve on the idea.
One thing that makes pirating ineffectual, and rather boring to those on the receiving end, it the whole concept of rewarding them for blowing up ships. What sort of logic is it to give out prizes, like rails, simply for racking up a large number of kills with no attempt to rob or even inter act with the merchants?
If we are going to award “PK points” then it should be for combat against worthy opponents, not picking off noobs in EC-89s or unarmed mining moths.
I have no problem with them shooting at me if I try to run or if I refuse to pay but to shoot first, shoot last and shoot any time in between, without even the pretext of “pirating” simply makes “pirates” into slightly smarter “mindless bots.” Both are going to try to kill you for no reason but at least the bots don’t talk smack afterwards.
If we are going to award “PK points” then it should be for combat against worthy opponents, not picking off noobs in EC-89s or unarmed mining moths.
I have no problem with them shooting at me if I try to run or if I refuse to pay but to shoot first, shoot last and shoot any time in between, without even the pretext of “pirating” simply makes “pirates” into slightly smarter “mindless bots.” Both are going to try to kill you for no reason but at least the bots don’t talk smack afterwards.
The problem with your proposed scheme is that pirates will not be ABLE to carry off in their fighters, because they will not be able to catch/kill their prey. If you can make a massive profit off less than 10 cu, then piracy becomes meaningless, because nobody can catch you. Thus, being able to carry off what people drop in your combat ship means nothing, because you'd never get your hands on it. As you say, you aren't intending this change to be geared towards them. However, this change would make piracy impossible. All traders would switch to fast combat ships, and pirates would never be able to catch them, so the only people left would be random griefers. Which is not a good thing.
And I have a lot of PKs, but I'm not a pirate. All of my PKs are from consensual fights with duelers or from furballs with pirates. Believe me, the reward for blowing up ships isn't nearly big enough to make you want to kill someone instead of getting a reasonable payout from them. Money is more important than PKs, especially these days.
And there's a reason lots of pirates don't ask for money first these days: nobody pays. Because there's no point, people flying through grey space aren't trading, they're most likely doing faction runs, and they don't care. They don't pay, they log off or explode to keep pirates from getting kills, so what do you expect? Grey space has become a shitshow, on all sides, which is somewhat good. If you're in greyspace and you don't expect to get attacked at any time, you're in the wrong. Maybe once people learn that more, and once more real trade routes are profitable in grey (not your unpirateable routes), piracy will become reasonable again. I look forward to that day.
And I have a lot of PKs, but I'm not a pirate. All of my PKs are from consensual fights with duelers or from furballs with pirates. Believe me, the reward for blowing up ships isn't nearly big enough to make you want to kill someone instead of getting a reasonable payout from them. Money is more important than PKs, especially these days.
And there's a reason lots of pirates don't ask for money first these days: nobody pays. Because there's no point, people flying through grey space aren't trading, they're most likely doing faction runs, and they don't care. They don't pay, they log off or explode to keep pirates from getting kills, so what do you expect? Grey space has become a shitshow, on all sides, which is somewhat good. If you're in greyspace and you don't expect to get attacked at any time, you're in the wrong. Maybe once people learn that more, and once more real trade routes are profitable in grey (not your unpirateable routes), piracy will become reasonable again. I look forward to that day.