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Sweet. Quoted out of context in a thread I've been avoiding like the plague. Whistler's right, I am very much pleased with myself!
In the immortal words of the great mr_spuck, I love you.
In the immortal words of the great mr_spuck, I love you.
Everything in our game is subject to polish, revision and enhancement. That's why we're releasing updates every week.
We are a bit more careful about our flight model, because it's one of the core aspects of the game, and also one of the most beloved by our existing player base. But that doesn't put it above revision either, there are several active threads on Suggestions, discussing options for exactly that.
"Latency concerns" are not very hard to explain. If we speed up combat in certain ways, such as higher speed ships or weapons, the only people who can really compete are those in North America on broadband connections. We do not have the ability to launch special shards of the game in other locales at present, and would rather not eliminate the market of the entire rest of the world.
We are a bit more careful about our flight model, because it's one of the core aspects of the game, and also one of the most beloved by our existing player base. But that doesn't put it above revision either, there are several active threads on Suggestions, discussing options for exactly that.
"Latency concerns" are not very hard to explain. If we speed up combat in certain ways, such as higher speed ships or weapons, the only people who can really compete are those in North America on broadband connections. We do not have the ability to launch special shards of the game in other locales at present, and would rather not eliminate the market of the entire rest of the world.
I'm a bit busy right now, so sorry I have not shot you already. I believe the combat system could use some work too, but it is still pretty fine as it is, there is a large weapon selection, that sure, you cannot use right now - but there is not that much of a grind to be able to use that equipment either - that you should look into in the future.
Gauss cannons and the l port plasma guns can make for fun fights, they have a larger impact area, without having prox discharge, you really cannot judge this game in like 29.88 mins.
Gauss cannons and the l port plasma guns can make for fun fights, they have a larger impact area, without having prox discharge, you really cannot judge this game in like 29.88 mins.
Thanks for the reply incarnate, I stand corrected (again).
Re: Genka, apologies for misusing your quote.
...Plague?
You disagree that there's a problem with the way the combat system is misrepresented during the first stages of someone trying the game? That to find some instruction and watch the few available videos one has to scour the forums instead of clicking a direct link on the site? (and the same process to find key plugins, like the wireframe hitbox show in the combat training videos?)
It's not an issue of "Grind" but an issue of failing to grab at people who try out the game.
You do not see a link between that and the low population of the game? (Even compared to other niche simulators and MMOs)
Re: Genka, apologies for misusing your quote.
...Plague?
You disagree that there's a problem with the way the combat system is misrepresented during the first stages of someone trying the game? That to find some instruction and watch the few available videos one has to scour the forums instead of clicking a direct link on the site? (and the same process to find key plugins, like the wireframe hitbox show in the combat training videos?)
It's not an issue of "Grind" but an issue of failing to grab at people who try out the game.
You do not see a link between that and the low population of the game? (Even compared to other niche simulators and MMOs)
"You disagree that there's a problem with the way the combat system is misrepresented during the first stages of someone trying the game? That to find some instruction and watch the few available videos one has to scour the forums instead of clicking a direct link on the site? (and the same process to find key plugins, like the wireframe hitbox show in the combat training videos?)
It's not an issue of "Grind" but an issue of failing to grab at people who try out the game"
I hate WoW references usually, but in this case, I figure it's the most relevant, seeing as there's over 10 million subscribers.
in World of Warcraft, you start out with not even a handful of special abilities. You don't gain several of any classes' core abilities until the twenties. (mage for example: cone of cold, blink, and spec related abilities).
Hell, your spec is enough to restrict play style relevant abilities til the 30s, 40s, and even 50 dead on. The grind is what's in between you and all your abilities; and it's design such to allow you to learn the basics, then get more customized abilities as you learn. Personally, I think the grind is way too much of a pain in the ass and I learned everything I needed by the 30s. It just turned into a rinse and repeat leveling (I have a level 70).
Gov equipment vs. collectors and other first few hour type bots would seem to be the equivalent. If an MMO offers everything to any random first hour player, no achievement seekers will stick, and it greatly removes the drive to continue playing and learn more.
Though offering some degree of customization in free gov weapons could be good. So long as they remain over all inferior to more advanced addons.
It's not an issue of "Grind" but an issue of failing to grab at people who try out the game"
I hate WoW references usually, but in this case, I figure it's the most relevant, seeing as there's over 10 million subscribers.
in World of Warcraft, you start out with not even a handful of special abilities. You don't gain several of any classes' core abilities until the twenties. (mage for example: cone of cold, blink, and spec related abilities).
Hell, your spec is enough to restrict play style relevant abilities til the 30s, 40s, and even 50 dead on. The grind is what's in between you and all your abilities; and it's design such to allow you to learn the basics, then get more customized abilities as you learn. Personally, I think the grind is way too much of a pain in the ass and I learned everything I needed by the 30s. It just turned into a rinse and repeat leveling (I have a level 70).
Gov equipment vs. collectors and other first few hour type bots would seem to be the equivalent. If an MMO offers everything to any random first hour player, no achievement seekers will stick, and it greatly removes the drive to continue playing and learn more.
Though offering some degree of customization in free gov weapons could be good. So long as they remain over all inferior to more advanced addons.
The 'f1' key used in space will bring up a list of hotkeys. It is an incomplete list, but helpful.
I never play with flight assist. I always use mouselook. My "Roda Slane" character is one of the top killers in the game, so I do have some impression of the combat system. I am also an old QuakeWorld player.
The autoaim can be intentionally defeated past a certain range, so that it will always exactly and precisely miss. The range of "precision miss" is determined by the weapon velocity, the dodging ship, and the type of dodge used. Inside this range, the autoaim works well, but this is often so close, that it can be a challenge to line your ship up to within the limited arc of the autoaim. I have rebound the autoaim toggle to be more reachable to adjust to the often changing range of engagement. Some ships dodge so fast, that you are best to leave autoaim off. There are possible improvements that could be made to autoaim, but I suspect that at the end of the arms race, we would end up in much the same position.
The starting weapons are very slow, in a game of slow weapons. 170 is considered subpar. 190 might be considered serviceable. 195 - 205 is high end, which is to say, typical. 215 is max for energy. rails 400 to 480. rockets and missles in the range of 75 to 95. This in a game where ship combat speed is typical at 65, and turbo speed 200+. I can fire a rocket, and then outrun it.
The weapon velocity has no relation or bearing in and of itself, being only of consequence when considered in relation to ship speed. If you double the ship speed, weapon speed, and ship size, you have changed nothing. This begs a question of balance: do you want to have to be so far from your opponent to dodge, that you can't see him?
Energy to energy is typically either a challenge of if both parties are brave enough to get inside serious combat range, or a practice in spray and pray. Spray and pray is boring, and nose to nose is hairy, and against experienced pilots, often short.
This is not Quake. In many ways I like Quake better. But quake was not a mmorpg.
The starting weapons are good for hunting bots. You sound like you are good at these type of games, and completing the beginner combat mission will give you combat 3. At level 3/3/-/-/-, you can purchase neutron blasters, vulture MKIII, and heavy power cell, and this is a pvp class setup. The vulture is very flat, and so can be hard to hit, but this is the setup that I recommend you do your testing in. P.S. just because a ship has more than one port, doesn't mean you have to fill them all up!
I never play with flight assist. I always use mouselook. My "Roda Slane" character is one of the top killers in the game, so I do have some impression of the combat system. I am also an old QuakeWorld player.
The autoaim can be intentionally defeated past a certain range, so that it will always exactly and precisely miss. The range of "precision miss" is determined by the weapon velocity, the dodging ship, and the type of dodge used. Inside this range, the autoaim works well, but this is often so close, that it can be a challenge to line your ship up to within the limited arc of the autoaim. I have rebound the autoaim toggle to be more reachable to adjust to the often changing range of engagement. Some ships dodge so fast, that you are best to leave autoaim off. There are possible improvements that could be made to autoaim, but I suspect that at the end of the arms race, we would end up in much the same position.
The starting weapons are very slow, in a game of slow weapons. 170 is considered subpar. 190 might be considered serviceable. 195 - 205 is high end, which is to say, typical. 215 is max for energy. rails 400 to 480. rockets and missles in the range of 75 to 95. This in a game where ship combat speed is typical at 65, and turbo speed 200+. I can fire a rocket, and then outrun it.
The weapon velocity has no relation or bearing in and of itself, being only of consequence when considered in relation to ship speed. If you double the ship speed, weapon speed, and ship size, you have changed nothing. This begs a question of balance: do you want to have to be so far from your opponent to dodge, that you can't see him?
Energy to energy is typically either a challenge of if both parties are brave enough to get inside serious combat range, or a practice in spray and pray. Spray and pray is boring, and nose to nose is hairy, and against experienced pilots, often short.
This is not Quake. In many ways I like Quake better. But quake was not a mmorpg.
The starting weapons are good for hunting bots. You sound like you are good at these type of games, and completing the beginner combat mission will give you combat 3. At level 3/3/-/-/-, you can purchase neutron blasters, vulture MKIII, and heavy power cell, and this is a pvp class setup. The vulture is very flat, and so can be hard to hit, but this is the setup that I recommend you do your testing in. P.S. just because a ship has more than one port, doesn't mean you have to fill them all up!
First of all, the WoW reference is out of place - ignored. (*must resist flaming*) You can't compare a mindless grind for the plebs (WoW) to a niche game with a high learning curve (like the games mentioned in this thread).
My (current) argument is that combat is misrepresented, and the solution doesn't have to be boosting the starting weapons.
Everyone claims that PvP weaponry is easy to obtain in the game, FINE. Give every new 8-hour account at least one PvP preset with 5-10 "lives" (copies of equipment). Point at it during the tutorial and extend it to cover the training required to reach the necessary qualification levels. Also, introduce an optional off-site download (Filefront?) of a plugin pack with the most important UI mods, and link it in the download section. Put the combat training videos on the same page (Filefront, so they won't go down to load). Problem solved?
P.S. Please rename thread to "Question on Combat Mechanics".
My (current) argument is that combat is misrepresented, and the solution doesn't have to be boosting the starting weapons.
Everyone claims that PvP weaponry is easy to obtain in the game, FINE. Give every new 8-hour account at least one PvP preset with 5-10 "lives" (copies of equipment). Point at it during the tutorial and extend it to cover the training required to reach the necessary qualification levels. Also, introduce an optional off-site download (Filefront?) of a plugin pack with the most important UI mods, and link it in the download section. Put the combat training videos on the same page (Filefront, so they won't go down to load). Problem solved?
P.S. Please rename thread to "Question on Combat Mechanics".
the point is relevant in that you ask for immediate access to everything you'll see to grab at new players and saying that it's obviously responsible for low playerbase. In this case, there's less grind between you and your full array of options in VO than in a massive game like WoW. WoW is still a massively successful game by mindless pleb mmo standards, and we have a low population by niche standards.
"Problem solved?"
it was your problem to begin with.
edit: and by 'less grind' I mean a fuckload less of a grind. Hardly can consider reaching most weapons and ships a grind in VO.
"Problem solved?"
it was your problem to begin with.
edit: and by 'less grind' I mean a fuckload less of a grind. Hardly can consider reaching most weapons and ships a grind in VO.
You've completely missed the point KoooZ. The mindset required to play WoW and this game is entirely different (if not conflicting!). WoW is in a different league, has a different kind of playerbase, and thus beyond comparison or analogy or realm of discussion.
Try to understand what I am writing:
If you give the trial accounts a taste of the actual combat system, both as a Video Tutorial, a set of PvP Ready ships to fly out with and required plugins, you will not impact the game economy much, but you WILL have a higher chance of capturing someone who IS ready for the difficulty setting but DOES NOT SEE the REAL game in the current setup!
Try to understand what I am writing:
If you give the trial accounts a taste of the actual combat system, both as a Video Tutorial, a set of PvP Ready ships to fly out with and required plugins, you will not impact the game economy much, but you WILL have a higher chance of capturing someone who IS ready for the difficulty setting but DOES NOT SEE the REAL game in the current setup!
I'm here, I played WoW. I actually use to be into WoW, now I'm into this. niche vs. mainstream = unable to have the slightest relevance? space vs. magic? you still have barely anything starting out in WoW. less than here.
"Try to understand what I am writing:"
I'm not taking kindly to your condescending attitude towards people trying to discuss this with you. I'm not incomprehensive.
"Try to understand what I am writing:"
I'm not taking kindly to your condescending attitude towards people trying to discuss this with you. I'm not incomprehensive.
"Plague" because as much as I like telling idiot newbs all sorts of useless information they're sure to have already heard from hundreds of different sources, I hate it when they return the favor.
Here is a good post to look at. Conveniently titled, as well. It gives general information and links to thinks like the wiki, where you find a list of plugins, PvP explanations and videos, etc. Perhaps it should be more prevalent, but it is there, and a good read (though it will probably have to be overhauled soon, as more changes go into the game).
The only other thing I'll add is that this game is all about its community. If you're in-game and experiencing something about the game that seems wrong to you, ask about it. It could be that you've gotten off on the wrong foot. Or it could be something inherent to the game. But asking the more experienced players will let you know which quickly and easily.
The only other thing I'll add is that this game is all about its community. If you're in-game and experiencing something about the game that seems wrong to you, ask about it. It could be that you've gotten off on the wrong foot. Or it could be something inherent to the game. But asking the more experienced players will let you know which quickly and easily.
Having come to VO from a Wing Commander/Tie Fighter/Falcon 2.0/3.0 type flight/space sims, I have to say I was overwhelmed by the complexity of pvp in space.
..
At first.. PvP requires -lots- of practice.. Even when you feel you can handle yourself fairly well, you still need practice.
When I first started, I sucked.. royally.. I got better, until I could hold my own, I'd usually lose, occassionally win, but it'd -always- be close.. Then, real life happened, and I quit playing for a while.
When I came back, I felt like a complete noob again, even tho I still had access to basically all equipment, I was getting SLAUGHTERED in PvP. Why? Simply put, I'd stopped playing. Everyone one else was getting better and better while I was offline, dealing with things.
The higher end PvPers didn't really notice themselves getting better, because not only were they getting better, BUT their prey was, too..
Just keep pluggin away.
As an aside, Don't lock yourself into a "favorite" load-out.
-ALWAYS- take into consideration the types of vessels you intend to hunt.
..
At first.. PvP requires -lots- of practice.. Even when you feel you can handle yourself fairly well, you still need practice.
When I first started, I sucked.. royally.. I got better, until I could hold my own, I'd usually lose, occassionally win, but it'd -always- be close.. Then, real life happened, and I quit playing for a while.
When I came back, I felt like a complete noob again, even tho I still had access to basically all equipment, I was getting SLAUGHTERED in PvP. Why? Simply put, I'd stopped playing. Everyone one else was getting better and better while I was offline, dealing with things.
The higher end PvPers didn't really notice themselves getting better, because not only were they getting better, BUT their prey was, too..
Just keep pluggin away.
As an aside, Don't lock yourself into a "favorite" load-out.
-ALWAYS- take into consideration the types of vessels you intend to hunt.
Tenet said:
Re: Genka, apologies for misusing your quote.
Don't APOLOGIZE to Genka for chrissake. Hells bells, that'll only encourage him to make more lucid posts.
Re: Genka, apologies for misusing your quote.
Don't APOLOGIZE to Genka for chrissake. Hells bells, that'll only encourage him to make more lucid posts.
genka's funny again...at least to me.
Tenet, the plugins are nothing. I never use them. The real game is totally accessible to you right now. You have only to leave this thread and go play with real players.
Tenet, the plugins are nothing. I never use them. The real game is totally accessible to you right now. You have only to leave this thread and go play with real players.
I'm currently in the midst of a new-user-experience redux, after which new players will be placed in a specialized "training" sector (defended against non-newbies), equipped with weapons that will only harm bots, and sent out to learn the basics in an interesting and safe environment.
During this period, there is no reason why we couldn't introduce specialized "training" variants of higher-level weapons, such as rockets, neutrons, AGTs, and the like. These training variants would do zero or minimal damage to other players, but be usable on the target drones present for training purposes. This might mitigate the scenario that seems to be central to the complaint.. that the "initial picture" of our combat is not descriptive of the "eventual picture", and causes new people to be dissuaded as a result.
This in no way is any kind of replacement for the PvP learning curve, which is both significant and also regarded as one of our core strengths (or weaknesses, depending on who you talk to; but our combat complexity is certainly cited as a strength amongst our subscriber base). But it does at least give people an "intro" to other weapons that will be available "down the road".. perhaps giving additional motivation to character progression.
During this period, there is no reason why we couldn't introduce specialized "training" variants of higher-level weapons, such as rockets, neutrons, AGTs, and the like. These training variants would do zero or minimal damage to other players, but be usable on the target drones present for training purposes. This might mitigate the scenario that seems to be central to the complaint.. that the "initial picture" of our combat is not descriptive of the "eventual picture", and causes new people to be dissuaded as a result.
This in no way is any kind of replacement for the PvP learning curve, which is both significant and also regarded as one of our core strengths (or weaknesses, depending on who you talk to; but our combat complexity is certainly cited as a strength amongst our subscriber base). But it does at least give people an "intro" to other weapons that will be available "down the road".. perhaps giving additional motivation to character progression.
VO is not just a big deathmatch arena where you can undock and start racking up kills from the outset - even though the grind to competitive equipment is relatively shallow it is still required. Nor is it a traditional MMO where the grind is the game whether that grind be for experience, stats, or gear - once your licenses hit around 5 there is really no need to focus on grinding unless you have your eye on a particular piece of gear. Nor is it really an RPG since any roleplaying in VO is mostly self-imposed - the roles players choose are only limited by the activities available (e.g., nationalist, trader/miner, pirate, jerk).
The best way I've come up with to describe Vendetta Online is as a persistent online PvP sandbox game in space. I've seen MMOFPS mentioned in the forums here and there but believe that VO is more nuanced than that acronym suggests since the developers seem intent on making the VO 'verse self-sustaining as a dynamic system but with the ability for players to insert themselves into that system and affect it directly when desired. In this kind of interactive environment, PvP expands beyond pew pew for the sake of pew pew to pew pew for the sake of some tactical/strategic objective. (This doesn't mean that mindless mayhem in B-8 is no longer viable, just that there are (or will be) other opportunities and reasons for engaging in PvP.)
An important question, and one that bears on Tenet's concerns, is VO's place on the scale of casual/hardcore games. Casual gamers may get confused and frustrated by the open-ended nature of VO while hardcore gamers may get confused and frustrated by the same immediate freedom to go and do what they want before they are adequately prepared. Reading the manual and faq beforehand helps in this regard but it seems reading the manual is no longer considered part of learning how to play a game. More missions will help the more casual player learn their way around but hardcore gamers in their quest for more immediate satisfaction will be harder to cater to. My impression has been that it's the VO community and GS's openness to working with that community via the PCC and such that keep the hardcore player around long enough to get to where they want to be within VO.
In any case, I don't think there is a practicable way to give a player new to VO, whatever prior experience they may have, a true impression of what the entire game is about (nor with any game). The best that can be done, in my opinion, is to give new players enough of a taste of what is possible within VO that they want to continue playing to see and do more. There is an unavoidable learning curve (as with any game) and the goal during the trial period should be to give the prospective subscriber a reason to want to bother however intangible that reason may be: community (not to be discounted as VO is part chat room like many other MMOs), sense of achievement (more an RPG issue but still present in VO), pride (the major motivator for the SpaceQuake side of VO), or just the freedom to fly around in space and do stuff including blowing shit up (just like you've wanted since watching your favorite space opera as a kid). We all come and stay with VO for our own reasons: Tenet, I hope you stay and give VO a chance. Cheers!
Incarnate: There's an interesting article in the October 2008 issue of Game Developer ("Shoot to Thrill") which concerns player engagement. One of its conclusions is that tutorials are more engaging when the player is placed in actual combat or a situation with real consequences. I don't know how you are structuring the new tutorials but providing a backdrop of combat during them might be interesting - something like a battle around a station with a cap ship in the distance being attacked (station under construction when the hive runs amuck) with the occasional bot or two peeling off to attack the player when needed for the tutorial. Intersperse combat tutorials with station/interface tutorials to provide for highs and lows in engagement. Could end tutorials with the player destroying that weakened cap ship (which the hive have finally taken over) for a big finish.
The best way I've come up with to describe Vendetta Online is as a persistent online PvP sandbox game in space. I've seen MMOFPS mentioned in the forums here and there but believe that VO is more nuanced than that acronym suggests since the developers seem intent on making the VO 'verse self-sustaining as a dynamic system but with the ability for players to insert themselves into that system and affect it directly when desired. In this kind of interactive environment, PvP expands beyond pew pew for the sake of pew pew to pew pew for the sake of some tactical/strategic objective. (This doesn't mean that mindless mayhem in B-8 is no longer viable, just that there are (or will be) other opportunities and reasons for engaging in PvP.)
An important question, and one that bears on Tenet's concerns, is VO's place on the scale of casual/hardcore games. Casual gamers may get confused and frustrated by the open-ended nature of VO while hardcore gamers may get confused and frustrated by the same immediate freedom to go and do what they want before they are adequately prepared. Reading the manual and faq beforehand helps in this regard but it seems reading the manual is no longer considered part of learning how to play a game. More missions will help the more casual player learn their way around but hardcore gamers in their quest for more immediate satisfaction will be harder to cater to. My impression has been that it's the VO community and GS's openness to working with that community via the PCC and such that keep the hardcore player around long enough to get to where they want to be within VO.
In any case, I don't think there is a practicable way to give a player new to VO, whatever prior experience they may have, a true impression of what the entire game is about (nor with any game). The best that can be done, in my opinion, is to give new players enough of a taste of what is possible within VO that they want to continue playing to see and do more. There is an unavoidable learning curve (as with any game) and the goal during the trial period should be to give the prospective subscriber a reason to want to bother however intangible that reason may be: community (not to be discounted as VO is part chat room like many other MMOs), sense of achievement (more an RPG issue but still present in VO), pride (the major motivator for the SpaceQuake side of VO), or just the freedom to fly around in space and do stuff including blowing shit up (just like you've wanted since watching your favorite space opera as a kid). We all come and stay with VO for our own reasons: Tenet, I hope you stay and give VO a chance. Cheers!
Incarnate: There's an interesting article in the October 2008 issue of Game Developer ("Shoot to Thrill") which concerns player engagement. One of its conclusions is that tutorials are more engaging when the player is placed in actual combat or a situation with real consequences. I don't know how you are structuring the new tutorials but providing a backdrop of combat during them might be interesting - something like a battle around a station with a cap ship in the distance being attacked (station under construction when the hive runs amuck) with the occasional bot or two peeling off to attack the player when needed for the tutorial. Intersperse combat tutorials with station/interface tutorials to provide for highs and lows in engagement. Could end tutorials with the player destroying that weakened cap ship (which the hive have finally taken over) for a big finish.
Interesting posts.
I would like to repeat the suggestion, as I see it significant in importance, to present your "high-end" combat system in videos availiable for download or viewing either directly from this site, or, to save bandwidth, from resources like Filefront / Vimeo and others. In both cases - these should be the the main advertising material, prominently displayed on the site.
Playing the tutorials is important, but to draw people in, a good video, or a series of them explaining different aspects, will go a LONG way.
I'm of the open minded kind, and eventually dig out the information regardless of original assumptions - but I know many friends for whom first impression is everything. They won't even watch a "high-end" video if they built up some kind of prejudice. They aren't a lost cause, just need to be grabbed hard from the start to become devoted.
I would like to repeat the suggestion, as I see it significant in importance, to present your "high-end" combat system in videos availiable for download or viewing either directly from this site, or, to save bandwidth, from resources like Filefront / Vimeo and others. In both cases - these should be the the main advertising material, prominently displayed on the site.
Playing the tutorials is important, but to draw people in, a good video, or a series of them explaining different aspects, will go a LONG way.
I'm of the open minded kind, and eventually dig out the information regardless of original assumptions - but I know many friends for whom first impression is everything. They won't even watch a "high-end" video if they built up some kind of prejudice. They aren't a lost cause, just need to be grabbed hard from the start to become devoted.
search youtube for VO theres videos there...
low resolution videos that don't show the finer details that you need to see to learn something? Youtube is insufficient.