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Pointsman: So do I. And I can certify that you fly very well with it!
/me fails to see any value to changing the game dynamics for someone who admittedly isn't playing.
Eliminate a players ability to evade rockets or a barrage of agt or neuts and you reduce pvp to a slug fest of who can score the most damage the fastest. It eliminates the need for skill and the ability to aim (which I admit I don't have). It reduces lights to simply doing brief attack runs before turboing out range. Much like (for lack of a better example) the tactics marcuse uses to decent effect. I'll be the first to complement his skill at this. And since his purpose is to grief, it works well. What is being suggested would be ideal for this tactic as a players ability to evade the flares would be reduced.
Oh, and pvp would suck.
Eliminate a players ability to evade rockets or a barrage of agt or neuts and you reduce pvp to a slug fest of who can score the most damage the fastest. It eliminates the need for skill and the ability to aim (which I admit I don't have). It reduces lights to simply doing brief attack runs before turboing out range. Much like (for lack of a better example) the tactics marcuse uses to decent effect. I'll be the first to complement his skill at this. And since his purpose is to grief, it works well. What is being suggested would be ideal for this tactic as a players ability to evade the flares would be reduced.
Oh, and pvp would suck.
I'm not convinced that he's trolling, and would appreciate people being cordial, or at least not-rude.
It's been some time since I was a good combat pilot in VO (mostly in alpha), I don't play as much as I should anymore. But back when I did fight a lot, the ability to move backwards at normal speed was crucial to gameplay.. especially in sunflare battles where "nets" of rockets were tossed across probable enemy trajectories.
Whether reducing "backwards" thrust is the right solution or not.. I am still interested in hearing about the problem. VO's flight model is not something I'm inclined to change, unless I'm really certain of a necessity (it is the least-changed aspect of the game, overall). But, bringing attention to weaknesses and discussing them is still worthwhile. If there are other possible fixes (like weapon buffs, or whatever), let's hear some specific cases.
Forboding_Angel is also quite correct that the concept of "banning" backrolling via some gentleman's agreement is pretty silly, as long-term solution. I thought backrolling was pretty ineffective anyway, these days, the better pilots just disengaging autoaim and shooting you manually.
Anyway, let's try not to be so unreceptive to criticism that is framed constructively.
(NOTE: I'm not going to "change" the game for any particular player, or would-be player. That's not the point. The value is in discussing problems if they do exist, for the sake of the problems themselves).
It's been some time since I was a good combat pilot in VO (mostly in alpha), I don't play as much as I should anymore. But back when I did fight a lot, the ability to move backwards at normal speed was crucial to gameplay.. especially in sunflare battles where "nets" of rockets were tossed across probable enemy trajectories.
Whether reducing "backwards" thrust is the right solution or not.. I am still interested in hearing about the problem. VO's flight model is not something I'm inclined to change, unless I'm really certain of a necessity (it is the least-changed aspect of the game, overall). But, bringing attention to weaknesses and discussing them is still worthwhile. If there are other possible fixes (like weapon buffs, or whatever), let's hear some specific cases.
Forboding_Angel is also quite correct that the concept of "banning" backrolling via some gentleman's agreement is pretty silly, as long-term solution. I thought backrolling was pretty ineffective anyway, these days, the better pilots just disengaging autoaim and shooting you manually.
Anyway, let's try not to be so unreceptive to criticism that is framed constructively.
(NOTE: I'm not going to "change" the game for any particular player, or would-be player. That's not the point. The value is in discussing problems if they do exist, for the sake of the problems themselves).
Backrolling full on is pretty useless if you actually want to win. But the ability to back up is crucial for distance control! And there is a difference!
Actually I left and wasn't planning to return, but I decided I may as well check and see if the devs here had any input, and which point is see pointsman frothing at the mouth.
Ya know, if you think someone is a troll, why don't you google their username? You're sure to find plenty about me, and maybe even my game (To save you some trouble, http://evolutionrts.info ), as well as my extensive l3dt work and my extensive involvement with the development of the spring community... Yeah, I'm just a big bad troll. GTFO noob and lern2interwebs.
There are a lot of people here stating the obvious, for example rockets and such... Of course you would have to rework them, otherwise you'd end up with spacequake rocket sector. No one wants that.
Incarnate: Backrolling as a tactic to win is not effective at all, I'm surprised to hear there was a time when it was effective. However, it is a way to definitively suspend the fight indefinitely.
Let me lay it on the line for you. In regards to newbies, they are gonna see this crap and not like it one bit. Some will, some will definitely like it, and some will stick around just because they think the pve is cool (That's why I hung around for the third month), but the vast majority will be irritated by the 10 minute long dogfights where you score 1 or 2 hits per minute, amid lengthy bursts of hitting nothingness.
Concerning "Would-Be player" I WAS a player. I spent 40 bucks on this game total. Maybe that's not much to you guys, and tbh it's not like I am hurting for cash, but 40 bucks is 40 bucks. I invested some time in the game as well as everyone else around here and I am entitled to give my opinion whether pointsman wants to hear it or not.
You know, you could accomplish for the most part what I am talking about by simply slowing the acceleration rate of backwards thrusting.
A bandaid solution would be to majorly up the velocity of the weapons.
Invariably anything I say is going to be twisted around by the jackasses that permeate web forums, so I guess I may as well stay out of detail.
Suffice it to say, that shooting at a dot on the viewscreen isn't particularly JAWSOME, and "gentleman's rules" concerning missiles and backstrafing/rolling in a pvp space sim/shooter is laughable, but watch. If someone went into sedina b8 and started dueling using missles and every "Dirty Tactic" in vo and was being fairly successful with it, all of a sudden people would come out of the woodwork to make his life miserable.
Meh I'm out of gas on this. Tbh the only reason I replied was because of incarnate. @incarnate, thanks for taking a look/reading/understanding.
Ya know, if you think someone is a troll, why don't you google their username? You're sure to find plenty about me, and maybe even my game (To save you some trouble, http://evolutionrts.info ), as well as my extensive l3dt work and my extensive involvement with the development of the spring community... Yeah, I'm just a big bad troll. GTFO noob and lern2interwebs.
There are a lot of people here stating the obvious, for example rockets and such... Of course you would have to rework them, otherwise you'd end up with spacequake rocket sector. No one wants that.
Incarnate: Backrolling as a tactic to win is not effective at all, I'm surprised to hear there was a time when it was effective. However, it is a way to definitively suspend the fight indefinitely.
Let me lay it on the line for you. In regards to newbies, they are gonna see this crap and not like it one bit. Some will, some will definitely like it, and some will stick around just because they think the pve is cool (That's why I hung around for the third month), but the vast majority will be irritated by the 10 minute long dogfights where you score 1 or 2 hits per minute, amid lengthy bursts of hitting nothingness.
Concerning "Would-Be player" I WAS a player. I spent 40 bucks on this game total. Maybe that's not much to you guys, and tbh it's not like I am hurting for cash, but 40 bucks is 40 bucks. I invested some time in the game as well as everyone else around here and I am entitled to give my opinion whether pointsman wants to hear it or not.
You know, you could accomplish for the most part what I am talking about by simply slowing the acceleration rate of backwards thrusting.
A bandaid solution would be to majorly up the velocity of the weapons.
Invariably anything I say is going to be twisted around by the jackasses that permeate web forums, so I guess I may as well stay out of detail.
Suffice it to say, that shooting at a dot on the viewscreen isn't particularly JAWSOME, and "gentleman's rules" concerning missiles and backstrafing/rolling in a pvp space sim/shooter is laughable, but watch. If someone went into sedina b8 and started dueling using missles and every "Dirty Tactic" in vo and was being fairly successful with it, all of a sudden people would come out of the woodwork to make his life miserable.
Meh I'm out of gas on this. Tbh the only reason I replied was because of incarnate. @incarnate, thanks for taking a look/reading/understanding.
Back rolling is for wusses and lesser wimps!
I've been flying FA mode for 5 years!
Mainly because the reverse hasn't worked in my Chevy hog since 1987
I've been flying FA mode for 5 years!
Mainly because the reverse hasn't worked in my Chevy hog since 1987
I see many of his points, and feel they are valid, however, I disagree with the main assumption that reducing reverse max speed would solve said problems.
I myself also like to use heavier, harder-hitting weapons, such as duel guass on an svg.
While I lose a bit of manueverability, which is to be expected, thats not the only tradeoff, the other is, they don't move as fast as, say, n2s or n3s, giving me -two major- drawbacks to using them. Do I think it's a problem? Somewhat. Do I think the heavier-hitting weapons need to be the same speed as the lighter ones? No way, they're supposed to be harder to use.. Do I think I should be able to dodge as easily as a fighter with the lighter ones? No way.
However, I do think the heavier energy weapons -do- need just a little bit of tweaking, if only to make them a little more 'attractive'.
EZR
PS. Yea, I'm not active right now either, too much stuff on my plate at the moment.. But I do love VO, and will return once my life settles down somewhat.
I myself also like to use heavier, harder-hitting weapons, such as duel guass on an svg.
While I lose a bit of manueverability, which is to be expected, thats not the only tradeoff, the other is, they don't move as fast as, say, n2s or n3s, giving me -two major- drawbacks to using them. Do I think it's a problem? Somewhat. Do I think the heavier-hitting weapons need to be the same speed as the lighter ones? No way, they're supposed to be harder to use.. Do I think I should be able to dodge as easily as a fighter with the lighter ones? No way.
However, I do think the heavier energy weapons -do- need just a little bit of tweaking, if only to make them a little more 'attractive'.
EZR
PS. Yea, I'm not active right now either, too much stuff on my plate at the moment.. But I do love VO, and will return once my life settles down somewhat.
Spring rocks! I love you even more now!
"Let me lay it on the line for you. In regards to newbies, they are gonna see this crap and not like it one bit. Some will, some will definitely like it, and some will stick around just because they think the pve is cool (That's why I hung around for the third month), but the vast majority will be irritated by the 10 minute long dogfights where you score 1 or 2 hits per minute, amid lengthy bursts of hitting nothingness."
This has rarely been my experience. What I am getting from this thread, is that it is simply whining against backrolling and a faint promise that if things were done their way that they'd be willing to pay. Can the game be improved? Absolutely. Would eliminating the ability to backroll improve the game? When you factor in everything else that would need to be changed to re balance pvp, I seriously doubt it.
Plain and simply, if you don't like the way someone fights, don't bother with them. There are several players in VO that I simply ignore. One uses swarms very intelligently, but is posed to jump the moment they time out. I won't bother with him to this day, even though he fly's a different ship. Or another who should know better since he's in a respected guild, but will sit in B8, waiting till I've finished a fight and won for a change, and then come kill me while I'm offering my respects to my opponent. I choose not to give him the courtesy of a real fight. If he scores a kill on me when I'm after a newbie or behemoth, so be it.
I fight a range of opponents, from players so new that its their first pvp on vo, to players so good that I feel I've done well if I've scored a hit or two. And yes, fighting someone who backrolls is a drag. Get over it and find someone else to dance with.
Uncle.
This has rarely been my experience. What I am getting from this thread, is that it is simply whining against backrolling and a faint promise that if things were done their way that they'd be willing to pay. Can the game be improved? Absolutely. Would eliminating the ability to backroll improve the game? When you factor in everything else that would need to be changed to re balance pvp, I seriously doubt it.
Plain and simply, if you don't like the way someone fights, don't bother with them. There are several players in VO that I simply ignore. One uses swarms very intelligently, but is posed to jump the moment they time out. I won't bother with him to this day, even though he fly's a different ship. Or another who should know better since he's in a respected guild, but will sit in B8, waiting till I've finished a fight and won for a change, and then come kill me while I'm offering my respects to my opponent. I choose not to give him the courtesy of a real fight. If he scores a kill on me when I'm after a newbie or behemoth, so be it.
I fight a range of opponents, from players so new that its their first pvp on vo, to players so good that I feel I've done well if I've scored a hit or two. And yes, fighting someone who backrolls is a drag. Get over it and find someone else to dance with.
Uncle.
I'd say I've had extensive involvement with the development of this community, but people call me a troll all the time anyway.
Life just ain't easy for us people who have had extencive involvement with the development of communities.
:(
Life just ain't easy for us people who have had extencive involvement with the development of communities.
:(
I would like to address a couple of the points Forboding_Angel has brought up, and I'll try to do it in as inoffensive a manner as I can. To address the first point first, I used to fight 3, 4, even 5v1 fairly frequently, as part of a furball. The rest of my side would be reloading, dead, or whatever, and I would have to hold down the fort until they could come back. Sure, I could have run away, but I don't run from fights I started with very few exceptions, because there's no point. If I die I'll get back to the fight more quickly, and I don't care about the money spent on the ship. In general, people who run from fights are *extremely* annoying, as you've put in the effort to do some pvp with them and then you're winning so they just leave. It's impolite, and while you might think that caring about politeness in an MMORPG is silly, that's one of the things that I think really makes this game special, the fact that its community agrees to be polite (in general).
On the subject of politeness, "gentleman's rules," as you or someone else put it, I've never seen them as something that is actually banned in combat. Backrolling and swarm use are acceptable tactics, even in B8. (granted, if you backroll the entire fight people probably won't want to fight you again cos it's really boring) But the point is not that they're banned but that they're often ineffective against experienced players. (swarms work pretty well against heavies, and I've seen some good tactics involving swarms and rails) I expect newish players to backroll or use swarms, and I don't mind that, I just point out the weaknesses in those tactics and hope they get better. Do I like fighting against people who use them? Not really. (well, I do like fighting swarmers in my Vulture, they tend to die pretty quickly) But I certainly don't think they're violating "rules" or anything like that. However, I can't speak for everyone, and some people might get on you for using them, which I can't really agree with in general.
On the subject of really long, boring fights: I haven't had a fight like that in many months, and I pvp almost every day. I have fights that are extremely long, with hits coming few and far between, but those are the most interesting and stressful fights I have, against some of the best fighters in VO. When I was first starting pvping, a little more than a year ago, it wasn't really much like you're describing. It was fast, furious, and fun, even though we didn't have much of an idea what we were doing. However, I do see new players backrolling all the time. If you're fighting someone who's backrolling, that can absolutely be a drag, especially when you're learning to fight. I would suggest asking them to stop, and if they don't, find another partner. There are usually many people online willing to fight you, even teach you a bit. In fact, if you' come back and are ever online when my main (Denji Royhu) is on, give me a yell and I'll give you some tips.
Bottom line, it seems like you and your friends experienced a difficulty that not many other people I've talked to experienced. I have never thought about pvp the way you do, 10 minute fights with slow hits, but that's a good thing. That probably means that the fix is easier than changing a game dynamic and everything that's associated with it, and more likely to be figuring out what exactly caused your experience and how to counteract it. There are a lot of fighters in the game who fight very much in-your-face, quick fights, tons of hits coming at once. If you decide to give VO another shot I, and I'm sure others, would be willing to help show you how fun pvp can be. (and I don't mean just killing you immediately and running away laughing, I mean actually putting in some time to help you enjoy yourself) If not, then I'm sorry you didn't have as much fun with that aspect of the game, because it's what keeps me coming back for more.
On the subject of politeness, "gentleman's rules," as you or someone else put it, I've never seen them as something that is actually banned in combat. Backrolling and swarm use are acceptable tactics, even in B8. (granted, if you backroll the entire fight people probably won't want to fight you again cos it's really boring) But the point is not that they're banned but that they're often ineffective against experienced players. (swarms work pretty well against heavies, and I've seen some good tactics involving swarms and rails) I expect newish players to backroll or use swarms, and I don't mind that, I just point out the weaknesses in those tactics and hope they get better. Do I like fighting against people who use them? Not really. (well, I do like fighting swarmers in my Vulture, they tend to die pretty quickly) But I certainly don't think they're violating "rules" or anything like that. However, I can't speak for everyone, and some people might get on you for using them, which I can't really agree with in general.
On the subject of really long, boring fights: I haven't had a fight like that in many months, and I pvp almost every day. I have fights that are extremely long, with hits coming few and far between, but those are the most interesting and stressful fights I have, against some of the best fighters in VO. When I was first starting pvping, a little more than a year ago, it wasn't really much like you're describing. It was fast, furious, and fun, even though we didn't have much of an idea what we were doing. However, I do see new players backrolling all the time. If you're fighting someone who's backrolling, that can absolutely be a drag, especially when you're learning to fight. I would suggest asking them to stop, and if they don't, find another partner. There are usually many people online willing to fight you, even teach you a bit. In fact, if you' come back and are ever online when my main (Denji Royhu) is on, give me a yell and I'll give you some tips.
Bottom line, it seems like you and your friends experienced a difficulty that not many other people I've talked to experienced. I have never thought about pvp the way you do, 10 minute fights with slow hits, but that's a good thing. That probably means that the fix is easier than changing a game dynamic and everything that's associated with it, and more likely to be figuring out what exactly caused your experience and how to counteract it. There are a lot of fighters in the game who fight very much in-your-face, quick fights, tons of hits coming at once. If you decide to give VO another shot I, and I'm sure others, would be willing to help show you how fun pvp can be. (and I don't mean just killing you immediately and running away laughing, I mean actually putting in some time to help you enjoy yourself) If not, then I'm sorry you didn't have as much fun with that aspect of the game, because it's what keeps me coming back for more.
I'd have to agree with spuck on this.
I haven't done much in the way of PVP yet personally so my opinion on the subject certainly doesn't carry much weight as far as how it actually works. That said, if "back-rolling" makes a fight mostly a standoff then it needs to be addressed. If its extremely difficult even for a seasoned, excellent player to overcome the tactic then as far as I see it's truly detrimental. If its just something that requires practice and some effort to overcome then I fail to see the issue.
I don't really like the argument that goes "if you don't like it then find someone else to fight" because fights are not always consensual. If it truly is a cheeseball tactic then it needs to be addressed somehow. Otherwise, leave it alone and let the folks that know how to play, play. ;) Anyway, thats my 2 cents. I could be wrong. :)
I don't really like the argument that goes "if you don't like it then find someone else to fight" because fights are not always consensual. If it truly is a cheeseball tactic then it needs to be addressed somehow. Otherwise, leave it alone and let the folks that know how to play, play. ;) Anyway, thats my 2 cents. I could be wrong. :)
It is pretty rare that someone will attack you nonconsensually and then backroll. After all, if they're backrolling it's dead easy for you to get away, because they're off at 500m and you can turn and run. That's the problem with it, it's a tactic that displays a great unwillingness to fight. If someone attacks you and you don't want to fight them but think they'll kill you if you run, do some backrolling and they'll probably either run away or at least get pretty frustrated while they kill you. Let me reiterate this: backrolling can be a viable and valid tactic. Just not for consensual 1 on 1 pvp. And it's not that it's difficult to overcome, it's just that it's damn boring to overcome. Which, depending on how patient you are, could also turn into a certain amount of difficulty. :)
Yes but if someone attacks you non-consensually and then is suddenly losing...
Like some pirates I might or might not be familiar with. ;)
Like some pirates I might or might not be familiar with. ;)
I appreciate the well thought out replies guys, I really do.
As Scottso said, fights are not always consensual, as a result the elite at backwards flying+strafing/backrolling have a nearly insurmountable advantage in terms of skill. I understand that pvp is supposed to be the main focus, but many people play space games like this because of older games (e.g. Privateer, Jumpgate(which sucked), etc).
Unfortunately I have yet to see one mmo that even holds a candle to it, however, imo VO comes oh so goshdarn close and I would really like to see it succeed.
Backwards flying is a damn nice feature, I don't think anyone could argue that. WHat I am saying though is that atm it plays too much of a role in dogfighting to the point that people like myself simply avoid fights because we think that the flight model is great, until you see people do that.
Way back when I was active for that short time, I was doing a lot of mining/trading with one of my 3 moths, and I got some pretty nice hardware. I also was doing border skirmish a lot, but the thing that really really kills me (lolpuns?) is the fact that I would be in a fighter (the serco guardian one thingy, damn near impossible to hit, this as hell... can't remember the name) flying towards greyspace (sedina I think... iirc I had a bit of a stash there at one point) or a hog mk4 iirc, and once I was carrying swarms (whatever those things are that shoot like 50 bajillion missiles when you fire it), got accosted by another player and in the course of fighting him realized that I was on the verge of losing, threw a bunch of swarms at him and got lucky.
For the next 2 days I was podded mercilessly for using missiles in combat. I took it pretty well and kinda treated it as a joke. I didn't figure it was a big deal, but tbh now I look back on it in disgust.
I got to the point to where I was pretty damn good in a hog or the guardian thingy, but I hated dogfighting because the moment I landed a few hits, my opponent would always start backpedaling, and if you burn to chase him you get all shot up.
That sort of pvp style isn't my cup o tea, and imo it strikes me as a gameplay flaw. I can't imagine anyone will like me saying that, but it's the truth from my point of view.
I play a lot of guildwars, and people in pvp will use run skills to run all over the map when they are the only people left just to grief the other team, I can draw a direct correlation (regardless of the fact that generally the backpedeller is just trying to stay alive), but come on.
Meh, I'm completely out of ways to say what I mean.
Suffice it to say that I am of the belief that if backpedeling was slower to accelerate than moving forward, it would be a positive for the pvp. I'm not talking about killing the max speed of a backpedal, jsut slowing down the acceleration which from an abstract viewpoint, kinda makes sense anyways. Atm I can't really enjoy pvp because of the way it is currently. Sure it may not be a big deal, hell I'm just one guy (My friends that played agreed with this, but meh), but I highly doubt I am alone in this.
I'm not sitting here trying to threaten with money... I posted a suggestion that would cause me to come back if implemented (but... like I said, I'm just one guy, however in my experience, the backwards stuff and money being pointless were the two main complaints from my friends and people I know who gave it a show). The devs may not see it my way, and that is their right. It's their game, and as such, their developmental playground... not mine :-). But at least I said my piece, hopefully in a not too confrontational manner. I try not to be a jackass, but sometimes it comes out :-/
@diqrtvpe: Did you mean to use the word "Stressful"? Stress is not something I need more of in my life :-) However I assume that you mean it as the good kind of stress that makes you happy once it's done. However, I'm kinda more concerned with the "during" part of it.
It was said somewhere and I can't remember where... Maybe the wiki? That nearly any ship within reason could possibly manage to gun down a stronger ship. THis is extremely attractive to newbies, it means that they'll have a chance to not get beated down for 2 months while they learn. Yes, maybe that is possible if you're really good, but in a practical sense it is not true. I'd love to see a bus beat a rag or a prom, now that would be entertainment. Make it happen guys! *Cracks Whip* :-)
Scott Jennings put it best imo: "All decisions will upset someone. It's just about having a realistic, well-defined goal for PvP in your game and going from there -- and accepting that there will always be an awful lot of criticism, rage, and Fury."
As Scottso said, fights are not always consensual, as a result the elite at backwards flying+strafing/backrolling have a nearly insurmountable advantage in terms of skill. I understand that pvp is supposed to be the main focus, but many people play space games like this because of older games (e.g. Privateer, Jumpgate(which sucked), etc).
Unfortunately I have yet to see one mmo that even holds a candle to it, however, imo VO comes oh so goshdarn close and I would really like to see it succeed.
Backwards flying is a damn nice feature, I don't think anyone could argue that. WHat I am saying though is that atm it plays too much of a role in dogfighting to the point that people like myself simply avoid fights because we think that the flight model is great, until you see people do that.
Way back when I was active for that short time, I was doing a lot of mining/trading with one of my 3 moths, and I got some pretty nice hardware. I also was doing border skirmish a lot, but the thing that really really kills me (lolpuns?) is the fact that I would be in a fighter (the serco guardian one thingy, damn near impossible to hit, this as hell... can't remember the name) flying towards greyspace (sedina I think... iirc I had a bit of a stash there at one point) or a hog mk4 iirc, and once I was carrying swarms (whatever those things are that shoot like 50 bajillion missiles when you fire it), got accosted by another player and in the course of fighting him realized that I was on the verge of losing, threw a bunch of swarms at him and got lucky.
For the next 2 days I was podded mercilessly for using missiles in combat. I took it pretty well and kinda treated it as a joke. I didn't figure it was a big deal, but tbh now I look back on it in disgust.
I got to the point to where I was pretty damn good in a hog or the guardian thingy, but I hated dogfighting because the moment I landed a few hits, my opponent would always start backpedaling, and if you burn to chase him you get all shot up.
That sort of pvp style isn't my cup o tea, and imo it strikes me as a gameplay flaw. I can't imagine anyone will like me saying that, but it's the truth from my point of view.
I play a lot of guildwars, and people in pvp will use run skills to run all over the map when they are the only people left just to grief the other team, I can draw a direct correlation (regardless of the fact that generally the backpedeller is just trying to stay alive), but come on.
Meh, I'm completely out of ways to say what I mean.
Suffice it to say that I am of the belief that if backpedeling was slower to accelerate than moving forward, it would be a positive for the pvp. I'm not talking about killing the max speed of a backpedal, jsut slowing down the acceleration which from an abstract viewpoint, kinda makes sense anyways. Atm I can't really enjoy pvp because of the way it is currently. Sure it may not be a big deal, hell I'm just one guy (My friends that played agreed with this, but meh), but I highly doubt I am alone in this.
I'm not sitting here trying to threaten with money... I posted a suggestion that would cause me to come back if implemented (but... like I said, I'm just one guy, however in my experience, the backwards stuff and money being pointless were the two main complaints from my friends and people I know who gave it a show). The devs may not see it my way, and that is their right. It's their game, and as such, their developmental playground... not mine :-). But at least I said my piece, hopefully in a not too confrontational manner. I try not to be a jackass, but sometimes it comes out :-/
@diqrtvpe: Did you mean to use the word "Stressful"? Stress is not something I need more of in my life :-) However I assume that you mean it as the good kind of stress that makes you happy once it's done. However, I'm kinda more concerned with the "during" part of it.
It was said somewhere and I can't remember where... Maybe the wiki? That nearly any ship within reason could possibly manage to gun down a stronger ship. THis is extremely attractive to newbies, it means that they'll have a chance to not get beated down for 2 months while they learn. Yes, maybe that is possible if you're really good, but in a practical sense it is not true. I'd love to see a bus beat a rag or a prom, now that would be entertainment. Make it happen guys! *Cracks Whip* :-)
Scott Jennings put it best imo: "All decisions will upset someone. It's just about having a realistic, well-defined goal for PvP in your game and going from there -- and accepting that there will always be an awful lot of criticism, rage, and Fury."
F_A: My note about not changing the game for specific "would-be" players was only in response to Death Fluffy's first comment above it. I was not trying to imply that your investment in the game (money, time, etc) did not merit your comment / opinion. I was simply noting that responders to the thread should focus on addressing the issue, rather than just saying "Well, he doesn't play anyway, who cares what he thinks?"
Heheheh, yeah, I meant stressful. But it's fun during, too. The stress comes from needing to stay completely focused on one set of things, not letting anything from outside intrude, which is hard. But that's only a small fraction of the fights I fight, fights against a few individuals in very specific ships. Most of the time it's just wheeee things go boom!
I have a couple more comments in response to your latest post. First of all, if the other player who accosted you attacked you unprovoked and non-consensually, he had no leg to stand on prodding you about missiles in combat. Even if he asked and you said yes, while the mores of the game is to warn that you have swarms on board, it's certainly not required to do so, and when you take on a ship with an L-port you should be willing to face swarms if they come. Obviously, not everyone agrees, but that's their lookout.
From your most recent description of what dogfighting was like, I get a much better picture of the situation. I've always had a sort of "charge!" mentality, so at first I wasn't visualizing what was going on properly. I would have to agree that if, as soon as I hit my opponent, he or she started retreating incessantly, I'd enjoy pvp a lot less. However, that sort of thing on the small scale is pretty common. Two pilots circle each other, close to exchange some fire, and back out to a safer distance for a few seconds. Then they close again, etc., etc. You should be able to wait for your opponent to come back into a good range within a reasonably short period of time after they backpedal, and if they don't then yeah, nobody likes that kind of fighting. You shouldn't have to boost to catch your opponent, whenever I'm in a situation like that I just let them back out to a kilometer or so and ask them over sector if they're having a nice tea party, or whatever. But I almost never see those types of fighters, so it's probably mostly a lower-level tactic, employed by those who don't know any better yet and haven't realized that the penalties for dying are so small that ruining the fun of pvp like that is silly. And while that doesn't necessarily help you in your situation, at least there's the knowledge that not all pvp is like that.
I have a couple more comments in response to your latest post. First of all, if the other player who accosted you attacked you unprovoked and non-consensually, he had no leg to stand on prodding you about missiles in combat. Even if he asked and you said yes, while the mores of the game is to warn that you have swarms on board, it's certainly not required to do so, and when you take on a ship with an L-port you should be willing to face swarms if they come. Obviously, not everyone agrees, but that's their lookout.
From your most recent description of what dogfighting was like, I get a much better picture of the situation. I've always had a sort of "charge!" mentality, so at first I wasn't visualizing what was going on properly. I would have to agree that if, as soon as I hit my opponent, he or she started retreating incessantly, I'd enjoy pvp a lot less. However, that sort of thing on the small scale is pretty common. Two pilots circle each other, close to exchange some fire, and back out to a safer distance for a few seconds. Then they close again, etc., etc. You should be able to wait for your opponent to come back into a good range within a reasonably short period of time after they backpedal, and if they don't then yeah, nobody likes that kind of fighting. You shouldn't have to boost to catch your opponent, whenever I'm in a situation like that I just let them back out to a kilometer or so and ask them over sector if they're having a nice tea party, or whatever. But I almost never see those types of fighters, so it's probably mostly a lower-level tactic, employed by those who don't know any better yet and haven't realized that the penalties for dying are so small that ruining the fun of pvp like that is silly. And while that doesn't necessarily help you in your situation, at least there's the knowledge that not all pvp is like that.
Thing is, the object recently is to make staying alive more important isn't it? In that light, I would think that crap like this would happen fairly frequently. I had maybe 2 or 3 pvp people fights (agreed upon or otherwise) where my opponent stood up and took it like a man, but if my opponent is backpedaling and it is an advantage, then it is a disservice to myself to not do it as well, in the interest of staying alive.
Circlestrafe+up/downstrafe+boost+roll= fun maneuvering
Trying to hit something half a sector away (I'm exaggerating) with lawguns or the super damage ones (Are they called posi's?, sorry I have a lot of trouble remembering) = not awesome. Auto Gatling turrets, neato as hell, but in a real fight vs a halfway decent opponent, how often do they actually hit? In my experience, once in a blue moon.
What is the point of all these guns if only a few are suitable for real combat? I never understood that. Yeah, save money on low level guns, but if you don't have a prayer of actually killing anything besides bots with them, what is the point of having them?
BTW if it makes any difference, my favorite ships in the game are hog and rag followed by hornet (which really sucks for combat, the thing is massive. Kinda like shooting at a barn door with a cannon). Dunno if that makes any difference, but yeh.
If you use the heavy damage weapons that fire slowly, use a lot of energy, and travel slowly (My favored weapons), it is nearly impossible to hit another fighter if that fighter is backstrafing. Sure, you can line em up once in a while, but it is pretty much ridiculous.
Ahh that's what it's called... Found the weapons table in the wiki, "Plasma Devastator", fun to use with positrons if you can manage to aim em well :-) But good lord the projectile is slow. Great for bots, not so great for anything else.
@incarnate: that's what I figured, but thanks for clearing that up. Sorry if I came off as being rude.
Circlestrafe+up/downstrafe+boost+roll= fun maneuvering
Trying to hit something half a sector away (I'm exaggerating) with lawguns or the super damage ones (Are they called posi's?, sorry I have a lot of trouble remembering) = not awesome. Auto Gatling turrets, neato as hell, but in a real fight vs a halfway decent opponent, how often do they actually hit? In my experience, once in a blue moon.
What is the point of all these guns if only a few are suitable for real combat? I never understood that. Yeah, save money on low level guns, but if you don't have a prayer of actually killing anything besides bots with them, what is the point of having them?
BTW if it makes any difference, my favorite ships in the game are hog and rag followed by hornet (which really sucks for combat, the thing is massive. Kinda like shooting at a barn door with a cannon). Dunno if that makes any difference, but yeh.
If you use the heavy damage weapons that fire slowly, use a lot of energy, and travel slowly (My favored weapons), it is nearly impossible to hit another fighter if that fighter is backstrafing. Sure, you can line em up once in a while, but it is pretty much ridiculous.
Ahh that's what it's called... Found the weapons table in the wiki, "Plasma Devastator", fun to use with positrons if you can manage to aim em well :-) But good lord the projectile is slow. Great for bots, not so great for anything else.
@incarnate: that's what I figured, but thanks for clearing that up. Sorry if I came off as being rude.
You know the only thing I can possibly add to this is that if anyone is basing all their judgments on what people post as opposed to what people are doing "right now" in the game, they are just basing they're judgment on what the current trends are and not what people are capable of or actually doing given the current game mechanics. Considering the extremely small player base in this game (and absolutely no offense meant there), and that the vast majority of that small base that read these forums and respond are most likely veterans, it's pretty safe to say these forums represent a very skewed view of the game as far as the average player.
The point is that folks like Forboding_Angel probably have a much more objective viewpoint because they have far less invested. Not that I'm saying that the long time supporters opinion is any less important, but I am suggesting that the people who have been playing for a long, long time are perhaps not quite as objective anymore or even able to commiserate with folks who are new to the game.
So take what I say with a grain of salt. But if you want to attract new players its just as important to really pay attention to what the new players are saying and somehow jive that with the what the veterans are saying. This is, perhaps, the purgatory of the game developers. ;)
The point is that folks like Forboding_Angel probably have a much more objective viewpoint because they have far less invested. Not that I'm saying that the long time supporters opinion is any less important, but I am suggesting that the people who have been playing for a long, long time are perhaps not quite as objective anymore or even able to commiserate with folks who are new to the game.
So take what I say with a grain of salt. But if you want to attract new players its just as important to really pay attention to what the new players are saying and somehow jive that with the what the veterans are saying. This is, perhaps, the purgatory of the game developers. ;)