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"And I agree that the "change it or I will quit" argument is not valid. Nor should it ever be!"
Actually it is very valid.
Losing customers is always bad, however it is not possible to please evey all of the time, so some losses are inevitable.
Somewhere between one person threatening to quit and all people threatening to quit lies a figure where developers suddenly start to pay even more attention than normal to losses and cancelations.
Seems online players at least went up since the turrets though.
No, it is not valid. It is presumptuous. Just because people make the argument does not make it valid.
Like I posted to the other thread, I have every intention of adding paid "military track" mechanics into the game, as well as giving free ships for certain uses (like BS), and so on, which I think will mitigate the losses for military-oriented players. I've advocated a paying military track since.. well, since before *any* of you ever played this game, but it's kind of a ridiculous thing to add when our economic situation was already hilariously inflated. Anything that paid out in "money" was essentially useless. I would like to give this sort of new gameplay a purpose. And I cannot give it (or any other monetary-gain activity) a purpose without creating a fundamental need for funds.
At the same time, I've also said that I'm going to be pushing more trade through grayspace, which I think will make for more interesting piracy targets, as well as more combative "escort" work for fighters, and so on.
I also agree with those who say that, for the most part, it's possible to maintain much of the same playing style, by simply taking Escort missions when roving from place to place.
For years, I've heard complaints about the unbalanced economy and the uselessness of money in VO. We have lost many players over this issue, some of whom have written at length about the essential pointlessness of large portions of the game.
I do make a strong effort to keep the game accessible to a wide variety of play-styles. The miners, the traders, the PvP'ers, the PvE'ers, and hopefully someday the crafters. I even support the casual blowing-stuff-up "space quake" people as much as I can.. if we had the time, I'd create a "dueling simulator" that was without financial repercussion. But I don't have a lot of development resources to go around, so I'm trying to spend them as wisely as I can. Opinions on my choices may vary, but these aren't easy, friendly, "dropping in popular new gameplay" choices I'm having to make. They're ugly, controversial changes that I know are going to upset a lot of people, but that I believe I have to do to keep this game from dying. I am essentially performing major surgery on VO, and I think my goals are basically in-line with what most of you would like to see (in the long-term).
Unfortunately, change and upheaval are always going to result in a certain amount of transitional chaos. People who have been with us for a long time know that this passes; that we mitigate problems that come up through major changes, that people settle down, and gameplay styles adapt a little to compensate (and usually for the better). The only real solution is to have a little patience when the changes come, and see how things shake out over a period of weeks or a couple of months. Newer people don't know this, because honestly we haven't done any major changes in several years.
If some people can't muster this patience, well, sorry to hear that. I have to do this. Someone mentioned in this thread about how change in the game is necessary to keep it from dying, even to keep the developers from burning out. This is very true. Due to a variety of exciting issues, ranging from funding problems to employee drama to less-than-ethical publishers (not a reference to Strategy First) to people getting run over by trucks, VO is still not what I set out to create back in 1998. I've been at this for ten freakin' years, running a company that hangs on by its fingernails; and allow me to say that it has not been a comfortable or easy road. I would really like to make this game better, and I mean a lot better. And, I personally believe, better for everyone, from the space-quakers to the "I just want to sit and mine in an asteroid field and never do combat" crowd. But it's going to require some patience. I have neither the money, nor the development staff, to do this in a way that isn't going to be a somewhat bumpy ride. But I think the destination is worthwhile.
At the same time, I've also said that I'm going to be pushing more trade through grayspace, which I think will make for more interesting piracy targets, as well as more combative "escort" work for fighters, and so on.
I also agree with those who say that, for the most part, it's possible to maintain much of the same playing style, by simply taking Escort missions when roving from place to place.
For years, I've heard complaints about the unbalanced economy and the uselessness of money in VO. We have lost many players over this issue, some of whom have written at length about the essential pointlessness of large portions of the game.
I do make a strong effort to keep the game accessible to a wide variety of play-styles. The miners, the traders, the PvP'ers, the PvE'ers, and hopefully someday the crafters. I even support the casual blowing-stuff-up "space quake" people as much as I can.. if we had the time, I'd create a "dueling simulator" that was without financial repercussion. But I don't have a lot of development resources to go around, so I'm trying to spend them as wisely as I can. Opinions on my choices may vary, but these aren't easy, friendly, "dropping in popular new gameplay" choices I'm having to make. They're ugly, controversial changes that I know are going to upset a lot of people, but that I believe I have to do to keep this game from dying. I am essentially performing major surgery on VO, and I think my goals are basically in-line with what most of you would like to see (in the long-term).
Unfortunately, change and upheaval are always going to result in a certain amount of transitional chaos. People who have been with us for a long time know that this passes; that we mitigate problems that come up through major changes, that people settle down, and gameplay styles adapt a little to compensate (and usually for the better). The only real solution is to have a little patience when the changes come, and see how things shake out over a period of weeks or a couple of months. Newer people don't know this, because honestly we haven't done any major changes in several years.
If some people can't muster this patience, well, sorry to hear that. I have to do this. Someone mentioned in this thread about how change in the game is necessary to keep it from dying, even to keep the developers from burning out. This is very true. Due to a variety of exciting issues, ranging from funding problems to employee drama to less-than-ethical publishers (not a reference to Strategy First) to people getting run over by trucks, VO is still not what I set out to create back in 1998. I've been at this for ten freakin' years, running a company that hangs on by its fingernails; and allow me to say that it has not been a comfortable or easy road. I would really like to make this game better, and I mean a lot better. And, I personally believe, better for everyone, from the space-quakers to the "I just want to sit and mine in an asteroid field and never do combat" crowd. But it's going to require some patience. I have neither the money, nor the development staff, to do this in a way that isn't going to be a somewhat bumpy ride. But I think the destination is worthwhile.
Hear hear!
He's right, the game needs change to survive. An economy needs growth, and so does VO. Quite frankly, I don't see much of a change in prices of the ships. Okay, so you have to do a bit more work right now. Thats no big deal. Money means much more now. Piracy is actually a threat, rather than a pasttime.
My point is to realize EVERY aspect of this change, not just the stuff that affects you!
He's right, the game needs change to survive. An economy needs growth, and so does VO. Quite frankly, I don't see much of a change in prices of the ships. Okay, so you have to do a bit more work right now. Thats no big deal. Money means much more now. Piracy is actually a threat, rather than a pasttime.
My point is to realize EVERY aspect of this change, not just the stuff that affects you!
I agree that it's worthwhile.
However, I'll also state that you'll never get where you're going with 4 developers and the limited budget that I know you stretch to make everything work as it is.
I'd love to have some connection to hook you up with to tap a funding source that would make this thing take off, I've been waiting for 4 of those 10 years to see something extraordinary happen. It seems like that "something amazing" is always just right around the corner, but frustratingly just out of reach. If I feel that way as a player, I can't imagine what the four of you must feel.
All I can say is "keep plugging away" and if I come across some angel investor with a gaming penchant, I'll steer him your way.
However, I'll also state that you'll never get where you're going with 4 developers and the limited budget that I know you stretch to make everything work as it is.
I'd love to have some connection to hook you up with to tap a funding source that would make this thing take off, I've been waiting for 4 of those 10 years to see something extraordinary happen. It seems like that "something amazing" is always just right around the corner, but frustratingly just out of reach. If I feel that way as a player, I can't imagine what the four of you must feel.
All I can say is "keep plugging away" and if I come across some angel investor with a gaming penchant, I'll steer him your way.
A big part of what keeps me doing this, is a desire to live up to the expectations of our long-term players, who have been waiting so long to see the dream-game evolve.
I know we need outside funding, but "chasing down money" and "keeping the business running" would each take up about the same amount of my time. So, my focus this year has been getting us to a bit higher, better point. Pushing up our subscribership a bit and enabling us to keep players a bit longer. Everything we've been doing has been working towards that. Once that happens, it will be easier for me to look for another round of funding, and also have the company look a lot better on paper.
Oddly, "Something Amazing" always has been Just Around The Corner. But there have also been a long string of semi-truck-esque events waiting around the corner with it. Anyway, the only useful focus now is on the future, and trying to make stuff happen as quickly/elegantly as possible, which is what I'm doing. In the meantime, some chaotic construction-related shocks will take place, and we'll do our best to sort them out and mitigate them quickly.
I know we need outside funding, but "chasing down money" and "keeping the business running" would each take up about the same amount of my time. So, my focus this year has been getting us to a bit higher, better point. Pushing up our subscribership a bit and enabling us to keep players a bit longer. Everything we've been doing has been working towards that. Once that happens, it will be easier for me to look for another round of funding, and also have the company look a lot better on paper.
Oddly, "Something Amazing" always has been Just Around The Corner. But there have also been a long string of semi-truck-esque events waiting around the corner with it. Anyway, the only useful focus now is on the future, and trying to make stuff happen as quickly/elegantly as possible, which is what I'm doing. In the meantime, some chaotic construction-related shocks will take place, and we'll do our best to sort them out and mitigate them quickly.
Incarnate: Just to let you know, you're efforts are appreciated. I, for one, approve the direction VO is growing and am willing to bear with the inevitable ensuing chaos of such efforts. (If I make the occasional suggestion it is simply my brain leading my enthusiasm for the game.)
It would've been much better if this change had been made while simultaneously releasing the new and more entertaining ways of making money that the devs have been discussing.
Lots of things 'Would Have Been Better'. For the moment, you have Escort missions, which work perfectly well. Some of the "Newer and More Entertaining" stuff is going to take time. Not doing this re-pricing change would block other economic work, until we had a more stable idea of what worked. This would have slowed overall development. There is a big, multi-pipeline flow chart of stuff to get through, with cross-dependencies.
If I had infinite resources, I would do it all on a test server and release only every few months, and have professional testers and QA services and all that (like WoW, etc). But, I don't. So, like I said, things are bumpy, but not unworkable.
If I had infinite resources, I would do it all on a test server and release only every few months, and have professional testers and QA services and all that (like WoW, etc). But, I don't. So, like I said, things are bumpy, but not unworkable.
Jeez, a few people are just hammering away at one of the most significant signs of change in quite some time. Honestly,this was a necessary change that Incarnate has very patiently discussed. You won't get this kind dev / player dialogue in most other games. It must be draining for them to work so hard only to have people make uninformed and snarky comments.
"Progress is nice. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies." Robert F. Kennedy
"Progress is nice. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies." Robert F. Kennedy
I like the new changes. PVP is now longer "Buy best boat, Fight, Die, Buy New Best Boat, Fight, Die, Repeat". I have to think.
I like it.
I like it.
Whistler
Hey, I know it's a necessary change for the game and I do agree with it, but that doesnt mean I have to like it :-P
And I do appreciate the devs continued attention and response to our comments.
Also...
"The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country." Robert F. Kennedy
Hey, I know it's a necessary change for the game and I do agree with it, but that doesnt mean I have to like it :-P
And I do appreciate the devs continued attention and response to our comments.
Also...
"The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country." Robert F. Kennedy
Great feedback all. Good work Devs! I was inspired to re-subscribe tonight.
I regret the socialist tones of my post heading. I am a diehard free market capitalist - though I prefer to do work in real life and play in VO. The title does, however, accurately illustrate the fact that a pilot with 100 million credits is less worried about higher ship prices than a pilot with a million credits.
I earn my credits from escort missions. This only works when I'm fighting 1 v 1. In groups (furballs) you cannot run escort missions. Thus a player like me who lives for excellent furballs will soon run out of credits. Some say "fly a vulture." Sure, sometimes groups will agree to a buswar, but I doubt that the next time I pirate a TGFT pilot he will agree do downgrade his ride. Escorts also don't help during BS & BP.
For me, combat is the excellent part of this game. The new economic changes do not improve the quality (or quantity) of this combat. I think Dev time would be better spent creating a strategic value to the outcome of combat. That suggests players have a way to own property that exists in the persistent VO universe. This property could then be fought over. This property could be made expensive instead of increasing ship prices to give credits more value.
I have no plans to leave VO over this change, but I will certainly advocate a different path.
I regret the socialist tones of my post heading. I am a diehard free market capitalist - though I prefer to do work in real life and play in VO. The title does, however, accurately illustrate the fact that a pilot with 100 million credits is less worried about higher ship prices than a pilot with a million credits.
I earn my credits from escort missions. This only works when I'm fighting 1 v 1. In groups (furballs) you cannot run escort missions. Thus a player like me who lives for excellent furballs will soon run out of credits. Some say "fly a vulture." Sure, sometimes groups will agree to a buswar, but I doubt that the next time I pirate a TGFT pilot he will agree do downgrade his ride. Escorts also don't help during BS & BP.
For me, combat is the excellent part of this game. The new economic changes do not improve the quality (or quantity) of this combat. I think Dev time would be better spent creating a strategic value to the outcome of combat. That suggests players have a way to own property that exists in the persistent VO universe. This property could then be fought over. This property could be made expensive instead of increasing ship prices to give credits more value.
I have no plans to leave VO over this change, but I will certainly advocate a different path.
I'm just going to echo this paragraph of Incarnate's since I don't think it'll sink in well enough otherwise.
That, or I could just like being redundant.
Unfortunately, change and upheaval are always going to result in a certain amount of transitional chaos. People who have been with us for a long time know that this passes; that we mitigate problems that come up through major changes, that people settle down, and gameplay styles adapt a little to compensate (and usually for the better). The only real solution is to have a little patience when the changes come, and see how things shake out over a period of weeks or a couple of months. Newer people don't know this, because honestly we haven't done any major changes in several years.
That, or I could just like being redundant.
Unfortunately, change and upheaval are always going to result in a certain amount of transitional chaos. People who have been with us for a long time know that this passes; that we mitigate problems that come up through major changes, that people settle down, and gameplay styles adapt a little to compensate (and usually for the better). The only real solution is to have a little patience when the changes come, and see how things shake out over a period of weeks or a couple of months. Newer people don't know this, because honestly we haven't done any major changes in several years.
Pirates for example, will probably not like the price increase much. They are poor as it is. This gives traders new hope to be able to survive on lucrative trade routes through gray space, like incarnate is saying.
Second, It will have people come down from the high horse of flying the ueber ships and thinking they are any good at pvp. Try pvp in a revenant mkIII or in a wraith for example (any "lesser" and heavier ship), win and then come back and you can say you learned something.
All in all this should provide a change in dynamic of people's action. New challenges. All in all a good thing.
Second, It will have people come down from the high horse of flying the ueber ships and thinking they are any good at pvp. Try pvp in a revenant mkIII or in a wraith for example (any "lesser" and heavier ship), win and then come back and you can say you learned something.
All in all this should provide a change in dynamic of people's action. New challenges. All in all a good thing.
That is not entirely true to reality. No-one is forced to use a wraith for PvP. The standard light fighters still offer a considerable advantage over ships not really intended for ship-to-ship encounters.
I don't mind the price increase. I gives the traders an incentive to cough up when we find them instead of asking why they should pay 100.000 for a ship that is worth 15..... Now they pay!
If only they were more in grey... :)
And a poor pirate is a poor pirate. Those that will now be poor are the ones that have been hiding in B-8. I guess the snakes of VPR will be poor as well unless you trader types pay them "protection" money.
If only they were more in grey... :)
And a poor pirate is a poor pirate. Those that will now be poor are the ones that have been hiding in B-8. I guess the snakes of VPR will be poor as well unless you trader types pay them "protection" money.
Let's end the surfdom of noble Pirates! We need paying missions for Pirates and those who oppose them:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/19814
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/19814
Hey guys, I'm a noob. One of the slashdot crowd who joined yesterday ;)
I would just like to say that to call the pricing issues I see discussed here "over-reaction" is being very kind. When a noob can afford (from what I am reading) one of the best ships around and yet can not (legally?) use it for what looks like days of skilling (licensing?) up. I really think your blowing the non-existent economy issues way out of proportion.
Once upon a time I played another space-mmo/twitch game. I was a mining slave for 3 months, I had the skill to run mining barges and fly battle ships but I still could not afford even one of my own. Hyperinflation? LOL you got a ways to go for that boys.
Hey dev's A+ for effort - you got my gold, err $.
I would just like to say that to call the pricing issues I see discussed here "over-reaction" is being very kind. When a noob can afford (from what I am reading) one of the best ships around and yet can not (legally?) use it for what looks like days of skilling (licensing?) up. I really think your blowing the non-existent economy issues way out of proportion.
Once upon a time I played another space-mmo/twitch game. I was a mining slave for 3 months, I had the skill to run mining barges and fly battle ships but I still could not afford even one of my own. Hyperinflation? LOL you got a ways to go for that boys.
Hey dev's A+ for effort - you got my gold, err $.