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Welcome to the third installment of the DOo topics, this time one that is kind of a continuation of the first.
So in that one we went over Inc's plan on the FUTURE of policing VO, but one issue came up that I don't think we really debated, argued over, and then got a thread locked over, so here is the place for that!
In that thread, it came up that Inc, you agreed with (sorry for bringing him back into discussion) and defended Arolte's actions on the grounds that they were possible in the game, and part of the whole non-consentual PvP thing that makes VO, VO. However you also mentioned that at the point that he was taking advantage of the system to harass other players it became a No-No. So where is this line?
Also mentioned was that backrolling/running and stuff since they are just a "different style of fighting" were okay. However, I disagree. When you're fighting, and the only opponent is someone who spams, runs, or backrolls, or any combination of those, VO loses it's fun. Yes you can get the glorious feeling when you finally DO grab a kill on this person (I'll never forget pegging SH with rails :D), but that only lasts so long, and then it's just really ****ing annoying again.
"But Smittens!" you might cry. "If that's how they're fighting, then just go somewhere else, and fight somewhere else!"
Right? WRONG! When VO becomes as big and popular as it surely will someday, that'll be fine! But right now when I'm forking over $10 a month (No, don't worry devs, as long as it's POSSIBLE for me to pay you, I will, just to support you), the game ISN'T at that point yet, so it's a debatable issue. For a lot of the population, PvP is the main point of interrest. So let's say I'm in Deneb, and I come across one or more enemies. Awesome, a step closer to 1000 (Note: As a player, I have far more than 1000 pks. Other Note: This is not an excuse for you Blaks to step in and remind me how many more PKs you have than I do)! So I fly forward, start shooting, and oh noes! They're backrolling! And one's got spams! But he's done in his little rag, right? WRONG AGAIN (I bet I really had you going that time)! So I'm turboing and turboing, and dodging swarms, and blasting him, but then all of a sudden, loser #2 comes up in his stupid Tard-Box that he wouldn't dare fight me with until I had my back turned! So of course I turn to unload some N3 on him, just to show who's boss, and once he scampers away I turn to finish off the rag! Wait, but where is that rag? Oh right, he's jumping out of the sector like a little wuss. Damn!
So now that I've outlined this all-to classic situation, as mentioned before your response might be "So don't fight them!" well that's fine, what exactly SHOULD I do? Perhaps I should fly to Cantus or whatever the next system over is, so I can wait and wait and wait and not see ANY players? Or maybe I should waste a bunch of time flying down to Sedina on the off chance that something's happening there?
None of those options particularly appeal to me, so I just log off.
OVERALL POINTS OF THIS THREAD
- There aren't enough people ingame for "Just go somewhere else"
- People who do things like run/spam/backroll, while of course are playing within the limits of the game and within the limits of their own rules (and "just because it's not how you play doesn't mean they can't play that way," even though I'm sure 90% of the community agrees that this is really annoying and lame) make it so that even when there are players to play with, you still won't always have a good time
SOLUTIONS
- (Temporary) PLEASE give us a wormhole or something from Deneb to Sedina and vice versa, so that it doesn't feel like a giant empty universe, where if you aren't EXACTLY where everything's happening you're in trouble
- Officially declare running/spamming/backrolling/any combination of those or any degrees of those as "Not Okay Even If It's Possible" Nearly all of the community would agree that this is really not fun to fight against, so why must it remain as part of the game?
So in that one we went over Inc's plan on the FUTURE of policing VO, but one issue came up that I don't think we really debated, argued over, and then got a thread locked over, so here is the place for that!
In that thread, it came up that Inc, you agreed with (sorry for bringing him back into discussion) and defended Arolte's actions on the grounds that they were possible in the game, and part of the whole non-consentual PvP thing that makes VO, VO. However you also mentioned that at the point that he was taking advantage of the system to harass other players it became a No-No. So where is this line?
Also mentioned was that backrolling/running and stuff since they are just a "different style of fighting" were okay. However, I disagree. When you're fighting, and the only opponent is someone who spams, runs, or backrolls, or any combination of those, VO loses it's fun. Yes you can get the glorious feeling when you finally DO grab a kill on this person (I'll never forget pegging SH with rails :D), but that only lasts so long, and then it's just really ****ing annoying again.
"But Smittens!" you might cry. "If that's how they're fighting, then just go somewhere else, and fight somewhere else!"
Right? WRONG! When VO becomes as big and popular as it surely will someday, that'll be fine! But right now when I'm forking over $10 a month (No, don't worry devs, as long as it's POSSIBLE for me to pay you, I will, just to support you), the game ISN'T at that point yet, so it's a debatable issue. For a lot of the population, PvP is the main point of interrest. So let's say I'm in Deneb, and I come across one or more enemies. Awesome, a step closer to 1000 (Note: As a player, I have far more than 1000 pks. Other Note: This is not an excuse for you Blaks to step in and remind me how many more PKs you have than I do)! So I fly forward, start shooting, and oh noes! They're backrolling! And one's got spams! But he's done in his little rag, right? WRONG AGAIN (I bet I really had you going that time)! So I'm turboing and turboing, and dodging swarms, and blasting him, but then all of a sudden, loser #2 comes up in his stupid Tard-Box that he wouldn't dare fight me with until I had my back turned! So of course I turn to unload some N3 on him, just to show who's boss, and once he scampers away I turn to finish off the rag! Wait, but where is that rag? Oh right, he's jumping out of the sector like a little wuss. Damn!
So now that I've outlined this all-to classic situation, as mentioned before your response might be "So don't fight them!" well that's fine, what exactly SHOULD I do? Perhaps I should fly to Cantus or whatever the next system over is, so I can wait and wait and wait and not see ANY players? Or maybe I should waste a bunch of time flying down to Sedina on the off chance that something's happening there?
None of those options particularly appeal to me, so I just log off.
OVERALL POINTS OF THIS THREAD
- There aren't enough people ingame for "Just go somewhere else"
- People who do things like run/spam/backroll, while of course are playing within the limits of the game and within the limits of their own rules (and "just because it's not how you play doesn't mean they can't play that way," even though I'm sure 90% of the community agrees that this is really annoying and lame) make it so that even when there are players to play with, you still won't always have a good time
SOLUTIONS
- (Temporary) PLEASE give us a wormhole or something from Deneb to Sedina and vice versa, so that it doesn't feel like a giant empty universe, where if you aren't EXACTLY where everything's happening you're in trouble
- Officially declare running/spamming/backrolling/any combination of those or any degrees of those as "Not Okay Even If It's Possible" Nearly all of the community would agree that this is really not fun to fight against, so why must it remain as part of the game?
What are running/spamming/backrolling ???
Running
When, in battle that turns to your disadvantage, you turn away and flee. Particularly bad if you initiated combat yourself.
If your ship is a missile/Rocket -only platform and that it was obvious, then running for ammo (and coming back!) can't be considered running. The contrary would be pointless suicide.
Spamming
The overuse of rockets and missiles in a battle in "spray-painting" tactics. Like using a cut-barrel 12 shotgun in hope to get that bee that stung you!
Somewhat excusable IF your ship is a rocket/missile -only platform, but only if done with style and purpose.
Eg: OK: you fly into a sector in order to take out turrets of a cap ship and some defenders turn on you. Well, chap, you can only run away or send out a volley of Chaos Swarms (and hope for the best), then continue your job on the cap ship.
Eg: NOT OK: You fly into a notorious PvP combat and look for an unsuspecting soul. Close enough, you unload your missiles and rocket all around your target in order to get an easy, mostly-assured player kill.
Backrolling
With Flight Assist turned off, the act of strafing backward using a rolling pattern (most of the time a fixed dodge roll bind of a manually-issued /roll command), in order to make it difficult for your opponent to get you.
Particularly bad if you have missiles or rockets or Gattling Turrets (usually referred to as AGT, from their old name). Most particularly annoying when done in a Vulture, given their very flat surface and rapid strafing abilities, often forcing you to turbo intermittently just to keep up.
Although often mistaken for back-rolling, simply keeping at a fixed distance (say, 150m away) by back-straffing is, in essence, just a tactic to keep out of effective range of certain weapon or to keep at a comfy dodge distance. Still considered lame, most of the time.
When, in battle that turns to your disadvantage, you turn away and flee. Particularly bad if you initiated combat yourself.
If your ship is a missile/Rocket -only platform and that it was obvious, then running for ammo (and coming back!) can't be considered running. The contrary would be pointless suicide.
Spamming
The overuse of rockets and missiles in a battle in "spray-painting" tactics. Like using a cut-barrel 12 shotgun in hope to get that bee that stung you!
Somewhat excusable IF your ship is a rocket/missile -only platform, but only if done with style and purpose.
Eg: OK: you fly into a sector in order to take out turrets of a cap ship and some defenders turn on you. Well, chap, you can only run away or send out a volley of Chaos Swarms (and hope for the best), then continue your job on the cap ship.
Eg: NOT OK: You fly into a notorious PvP combat and look for an unsuspecting soul. Close enough, you unload your missiles and rocket all around your target in order to get an easy, mostly-assured player kill.
Backrolling
With Flight Assist turned off, the act of strafing backward using a rolling pattern (most of the time a fixed dodge roll bind of a manually-issued /roll command), in order to make it difficult for your opponent to get you.
Particularly bad if you have missiles or rockets or Gattling Turrets (usually referred to as AGT, from their old name). Most particularly annoying when done in a Vulture, given their very flat surface and rapid strafing abilities, often forcing you to turbo intermittently just to keep up.
Although often mistaken for back-rolling, simply keeping at a fixed distance (say, 150m away) by back-straffing is, in essence, just a tactic to keep out of effective range of certain weapon or to keep at a comfy dodge distance. Still considered lame, most of the time.
What if I suck at PvP, and get jumped?
I'd backroll, missile spam and, if possible, run away.
If this was a real universe, anything that lets you fly away is a legitimate tactic.
We can't make some things possible-but-illegal in a game, either.
Ofcourse, exploiting (like the mad BP exploits a time back) is not supposed to be possible, and this are illegal.
Backrolling is within the inteded boundries of the game and, as such, is supposed to be legal.
Dealing with Running:
- Follow! Keep within the range needed to see where the player jumps to, and give chase. Form a posse and go looking for the mrotheffukecr!
- Rejoice. The idiot left you in peace. Get on with the game.
Dealing with backrolling:
- Are you kidding? All predictable movement is spottable. TURN OFF AUTOAIM and heat your cannon!
- Get better guns
- Carry swarms, just in case
Dealing with spamming:
- Dodge, run and backroll?
- Respawn and get back as fast as possible. (S)he is out of rockets now, and should be an easy target.
As for going elsewhere, the game will go Mass Marketing soon(tm) enough, and when it does, there's plenty of stuff to do elsewhere.
Judging from your post, smittens, you seem to allways be alone ingame? If two people jump me, I inform the convoy leader and (s)he dispatches the appropriate ammount of escorts.
Dude, join a guild.
I'd backroll, missile spam and, if possible, run away.
If this was a real universe, anything that lets you fly away is a legitimate tactic.
We can't make some things possible-but-illegal in a game, either.
Ofcourse, exploiting (like the mad BP exploits a time back) is not supposed to be possible, and this are illegal.
Backrolling is within the inteded boundries of the game and, as such, is supposed to be legal.
Dealing with Running:
- Follow! Keep within the range needed to see where the player jumps to, and give chase. Form a posse and go looking for the mrotheffukecr!
- Rejoice. The idiot left you in peace. Get on with the game.
Dealing with backrolling:
- Are you kidding? All predictable movement is spottable. TURN OFF AUTOAIM and heat your cannon!
- Get better guns
- Carry swarms, just in case
Dealing with spamming:
- Dodge, run and backroll?
- Respawn and get back as fast as possible. (S)he is out of rockets now, and should be an easy target.
As for going elsewhere, the game will go Mass Marketing soon(tm) enough, and when it does, there's plenty of stuff to do elsewhere.
Judging from your post, smittens, you seem to allways be alone ingame? If two people jump me, I inform the convoy leader and (s)he dispatches the appropriate ammount of escorts.
Dude, join a guild.
They sound like perfectly legimate tactics in war? The geneva convention doesnt state that soldiers must not run away when fighting "because its not fair" for the opposing side. These problems should be dealt with by the game itself, such as bigger manuverability disadvantages for carrying missles or having missle launches overheat as you fire multiple missles. I dont believe reliance on a "code of honour" is the way forward, in game restrictions to limit the effect of these problems is a much better reflection of actual combat and makes it more interesting.
The problem is player-based, so the solution should be player-based.
Form gangs and guilds, and go kick in some teeth.
Form gangs and guilds, and go kick in some teeth.
"Somewhat excusable IF your ship is a rocket/missile -only platform, but only if done with style and purpose."
Ahah, no. If anything, that would be a point that makes it INexcusable, since it demonstrates the intention to spam by the virtue that it's essentially the only thing one can do with such a layout. Mind you, that's missiles; the only way one can 'spam' rockets is with either jackhammers or chainfired flares, and it's ineffectual enough that it shouldn't matter as an acceptable tactic.
Spamming:
With the exception of noob-toobing (something tumblemonster is known for...) spam is by no means unavoidable. If it's rocket spam, throw your ship in reverse and weave your way out of it, or get inside the arming radius and eat them alive. If it's missile spam, break off and turbo away to get the missiles behind you and then return fire, or wait for them to exhaust their missiles.
Backrolling:
1) Turn off auto-aim. Watch them eat plasma.
2) Stop advancing and make them come to you, or just turn tail and leave to do something else - they can't kill you by backrolling unless you're following them, and they sure as hell can't shoot you in the back as you leave if they've backrolled to over 800m away.
3) flush them out of it with a volley of swarms (turn off auto-aim before you fire them)
Running:
Life's a bitch, and so are they - deal with it. Let them go, count it as a victory, and come back to claim your PK later at an opportune time, or just follow them to their station and blast them to oblivion, your choice.
Ahah, no. If anything, that would be a point that makes it INexcusable, since it demonstrates the intention to spam by the virtue that it's essentially the only thing one can do with such a layout. Mind you, that's missiles; the only way one can 'spam' rockets is with either jackhammers or chainfired flares, and it's ineffectual enough that it shouldn't matter as an acceptable tactic.
Spamming:
With the exception of noob-toobing (something tumblemonster is known for...) spam is by no means unavoidable. If it's rocket spam, throw your ship in reverse and weave your way out of it, or get inside the arming radius and eat them alive. If it's missile spam, break off and turbo away to get the missiles behind you and then return fire, or wait for them to exhaust their missiles.
Backrolling:
1) Turn off auto-aim. Watch them eat plasma.
2) Stop advancing and make them come to you, or just turn tail and leave to do something else - they can't kill you by backrolling unless you're following them, and they sure as hell can't shoot you in the back as you leave if they've backrolled to over 800m away.
3) flush them out of it with a volley of swarms (turn off auto-aim before you fire them)
Running:
Life's a bitch, and so are they - deal with it. Let them go, count it as a victory, and come back to claim your PK later at an opportune time, or just follow them to their station and blast them to oblivion, your choice.
Did you forget to mention the Prom or is it the next topic of those fascinating threads?
I'm not even getting into this.
-Calder
-Calder
If im not mistaken.....this thread was asking for a DEV opinion....
Can I get a dev opinion on "Lame" Threads, started by "Lame" people to complain about not being able to kill enough newbies?
almost all of these problems are solved by working in a team. I can rememeber way back Pirates used every dirty trick in the book to kill people so at the time guilds like INM started squads where you go after people in groups.
Now not everybody wants to fight group fights, and if you don't then deal with the problem singly. Warping is no longer a viable means of escape since you can die in warps. Backrolling is easy to counter with energy if you take the time to learn it.
And as for spamming.... I really don't see a problem with it :P I never have. If people cannot defend themselves any other way, I think its a valid tactic. If you don't like it leave them alone :P
Now not everybody wants to fight group fights, and if you don't then deal with the problem singly. Warping is no longer a viable means of escape since you can die in warps. Backrolling is easy to counter with energy if you take the time to learn it.
And as for spamming.... I really don't see a problem with it :P I never have. If people cannot defend themselves any other way, I think its a valid tactic. If you don't like it leave them alone :P
I would note that I at least sometimes attempt to roleplay my character, and almost no reasonable character chooses to fight to the death rather than retreat to fight another day. I am also generally in the camp of "of course it's fair, so live with it". However, I can certainly see your point about at least some people's lack of fun when not getting PKs in PvP... ...
So, I would suggest making dueling more lucrative (or whatever) and thus more common (since leaving a sector forfeits the duel) or perhaps one can recieve a kill-count/pseudo-kill-count for dealing over 60% damage to an enemy who leaves the sector as long as you are still in it? Any other SIMPLE ideas which would reward people for simply holding the territory without requiring kills?
So, I would suggest making dueling more lucrative (or whatever) and thus more common (since leaving a sector forfeits the duel) or perhaps one can recieve a kill-count/pseudo-kill-count for dealing over 60% damage to an enemy who leaves the sector as long as you are still in it? Any other SIMPLE ideas which would reward people for simply holding the territory without requiring kills?
The particular actions of Arolte's that were egregious to Incarnate were his hassling other players and then CHASING THEM ALL OVER THE UNIVERSE just to get the kill.
It is rude, boorish and downright stupid to expect that certain methods of fighting become examples of Dev-intervenable behavior. Smit, get a grip. People fight the way they do and don't change just because YOU WANT THEM TO.
Roguelazer said: Can I get a dev opinion on "Lame" Threads, started by "Lame" people to complain about not being able to kill enough newbies?
Motion seconded. Smit, you won't win this one.
It is rude, boorish and downright stupid to expect that certain methods of fighting become examples of Dev-intervenable behavior. Smit, get a grip. People fight the way they do and don't change just because YOU WANT THEM TO.
Roguelazer said: Can I get a dev opinion on "Lame" Threads, started by "Lame" people to complain about not being able to kill enough newbies?
Motion seconded. Smit, you won't win this one.
Yet another "oh noes! teh backrollzorz!" thread...
It's all been said before.
It's all been said before.
seems more like an ego problem to me.
Backrolling ? Most of the time I don't even know which way is up never mind what direction I'm travelling in......
When I am trading I reserve the right to use whatever methods are available to protect my cargo. If that involves swarming a challenger then running away so be it. It's often the only way to deal with unbots, particularly the hogs. As a trader I will not initiate a fight but might well end one....
If I choose to go looking for combat then I will fight to the death, and would not use swarms . Usually my death...
ecka
When I am trading I reserve the right to use whatever methods are available to protect my cargo. If that involves swarming a challenger then running away so be it. It's often the only way to deal with unbots, particularly the hogs. As a trader I will not initiate a fight but might well end one....
If I choose to go looking for combat then I will fight to the death, and would not use swarms . Usually my death...
ecka
/me sense boredom creeping in.
Only way to explain the sudden increase in rehash topics....
Only way to explain the sudden increase in rehash topics....
There's a difference if its used in defense of oneself.
If you initiate the combat then run away its dishonorable.
If you initiate the combat then backroll infinitely its dishonorable.
If used as a defensive tactic then yea sure anything goes.
Once you start a fight though you'd better stick around and finish it. Otherwise your just like Aroltemort.
He used to continually harass players using lame tactics.
Wouldn't ever want to actually fight though.
Just disrupt gameplay.
Heh, on a side note.
Maybe if you spent less time backrolling early on smitti, you would know how to counter it.
I welcome all backrolling, and encourage it as a legitimate tactic.
Just keep holdin down spin and strafe baby :)
If you initiate the combat then run away its dishonorable.
If you initiate the combat then backroll infinitely its dishonorable.
If used as a defensive tactic then yea sure anything goes.
Once you start a fight though you'd better stick around and finish it. Otherwise your just like Aroltemort.
He used to continually harass players using lame tactics.
Wouldn't ever want to actually fight though.
Just disrupt gameplay.
Heh, on a side note.
Maybe if you spent less time backrolling early on smitti, you would know how to counter it.
I welcome all backrolling, and encourage it as a legitimate tactic.
Just keep holdin down spin and strafe baby :)
I pretty much agree with the "all is fair in love/war" crowd... cheap tactics or no, it's up to you what strategy you choose.
Of course there has to be an understanding that the community views certain tactics as dishonorable. If you want to build a reputation for yourself as an honorable fighter, don't start a fight you can't finish, don't backroll, and don't spam.
If you could care less about what is honorable or not... by all means spam and backroll away. It's an expensive habit anyway and doesn't teach you much in the way of real combat skills. Worse, you will build a negative rep with PvPers very quickly. That should be enough of a deterrent in and of itself.
He who fights dishonorably will find he has many enemies...
Of course, every society has its rogues and outlaws.
Of course there has to be an understanding that the community views certain tactics as dishonorable. If you want to build a reputation for yourself as an honorable fighter, don't start a fight you can't finish, don't backroll, and don't spam.
If you could care less about what is honorable or not... by all means spam and backroll away. It's an expensive habit anyway and doesn't teach you much in the way of real combat skills. Worse, you will build a negative rep with PvPers very quickly. That should be enough of a deterrent in and of itself.
He who fights dishonorably will find he has many enemies...
Of course, every society has its rogues and outlaws.