I don't agree with whistler (he big surprise there).

We are playing a compettetive game, if you are'nt willing to let your ship be blown up in a fight or run out of your major ammosupply then sorry but you should not survive the hussle.

Just swooshing in and shooting rockets or swarms in the hope of getting a kill is not 'fun' play. Then you can just as well ask the devs to make getting hit dependent on dierolls.

And what is more if everybody is going to exert that behaviour where is the fun in pvp going to be? Oooh yeah everybody jumps in shoots his swarms at a random x foe and then jumps back out to the nearest station to resupply. If everybody prefers that as gameplay then I'll just don't bother playing anymore since whats the use anyway you'll just be pissing each other off anyway. Please get over the behaviour of a death meaning something... since it means nothing, nada, zilch, riente, niks, etc and get in the mindset that since this is a game both sides need to have fun... and if you just blew all your ammo on your first 10 shots and didn't pick up a sidearm just in case your uberrockets or uberswarms didn't succeed in hitting then your opponent deserves that kill... you should have waited on abetter chance to hit him or...

If you are not capable of upholding to thatn then please don't bother acting like a dickhead since all you are is a pure waste of time to the people that have fun in this way. And if you don't wanna join in our way of having fun then DONT JOIN, since your only taking away our fun.

And yes I am one of the people that routinely lets himself be blasted if I ran out of ammo and didn't pick a sidearm... since its my lack of skill, my error that made me unable to take out the opposite party and becaue of that I and many others believe and agree that therefore this person should earn that kill.

However the only exceptions are when your in a bomber bombing the frigate or in a tradeship running, I don't think and many probably agree that in here running is cowardly or not normal.

Besides all this behaviour does is making sure that we will create more dickheads that will stationcamp to get easy kills. And this is stil possible, it ain't even hard... But I am however even more disgusted (not correct word...) that i see this behaviour getting exerted by some of the prime skilled people that don't even need this behaviour to get a kill... It just reminds me why I was happy to not see a lot of those oldtimers (not naming names) online since all they do is wrech a perfectly entertaining game just by their behaviour of willing to pwn somebody. Please get over your ego... and have fun not spoil someone elses. If you want to do that just get a boxingbag and frustrate yourselve out on that or go and play some other childish game like counterstrike or any of those other MUahahaha I pwnzer your bxrs.

PS: yes this rant felt good, and i excuse myself for it, but I'm not going to take it out since it has to be reitterated...

/me gets some tequila for Rene.
I'll drink to THAT!

Well I completely disagree with YOU Rene. I find it extremely disapointing when someone I'm fighting goes: "Oh well, I'm out of ammo. Here, I'll stop and you can shoot me." It absolutely ruins any roleplaying aspect of the game. We're not playing golf. Learn to chase people. Ask Whistler or Lin, both of whom I've Chased down and killed before they could jump back to Guiera R. (Actually, maybe don't ask Lin, she was sort of bitter.)

I agree that in a duel this should be done. But not in a roleplaying mission.

>>And if you don't wanna join in our way of having fun then DONT JOIN, since your only taking away our fun.<<

/me again wonders WTF these people think they are. Weeelll sheeet, I suppose there IS only one acceptable way of playing VO! /me kicks himself for not realizing that **YOUR FUN** is the one we should ALL be worried about!!

Last I checked what interferes with **your fun** might be someone else's FUN, and your fun may well interfere with that, too. You're each imposing on the other, so don't try and take some sort of high ground here, Rene: what you claim has no moral or other intrinsic merit over Whistler's position. Let's try to actually debate WHY people "should" play any given style, huh?

Thanks Bryce.

I actually had our run-ins from last night in mind, but I couldn't recall your name. *I* didn't mind being killed a bit - it was fun. I felt we were playing the game as it was intended to be played. I showed up rigged to kill BP bots and maybe a few less-skilled pilots, but was no match for your skill along with your ship's superior speed and agility. I fought back while I had something to fight with, and then took off running. I even tried to run you through some old mines I had dropped earlier. I'm not going to just squat there and await certain death. I don't see a problem with that unless it's a duel (in which case it was foolish to go in with only ammo-based weapons and dying graciously is the only honorable thing to do). You gave chase and gunned me down - nothing wrong with that either. Well done! We repeated it a few times and it really brought the thrill and danger back for me each time. We'll have to do it again sometime.

Rene: I was not aware that we had a history of disagreeing. In fact, we don't even disagree here. Your rant has little to do with me or what I posted about.

O.o something i agree with, swarms are not the uber weapon they are made out to be. Increase their destruction radius and then maybe they would be.

heh we don't, but it is no novelty for me disagreeing with pretty much anybody :D, for that was my addenda meant.

And actually it was your post that kinda lead to this, mostly this little paragraph, although small it was loaden with a subliminal tone that denounced everyhting that I put in my post above

(snip) Does it really make sense to expect a pilot to hang around until they finally are killed if their reason for being in BP was to complete the BP mission? (/snip)

---------------

Bryce, I find that honourable and galant, since it means that you appreciate each other and are willing to give each other a kill. That is exactly what a great community is all about. I really don't care about getting another kill, but if everybody uses that behaviour there will not be much fun left over, or even much collegiallity with the exception of the jerks loving that behaviour. But hey just go on with your little fun and see how fast vo will bleed to death. Or heck, a better idea would be to create 2 instances of the game, one which is totally FPS related and in which this behaviour is normal(le tthem blow their heads off, see if I care), and the other in which people can have fun in their so called carebear fashion (since sorry to break this to you, for an rpg this behaviour is not acceptable).

For you lecter, I don't even know how to answer to it diplomatically, except by saying I prefer to have a community that rocks and that have fun together then to get a community in which each person annoys another person every time and in which we get nothing else then hate and distrust. Hell I had the most fun in my entire game career when people stated that they were hostile or not, I loved it that people stayed to fight till their last breath in stead of running away as soon as they ran out of ammo or even got a scratch just because they can't stand the (in hteir eyes) humiliation of getting killed by another person (who isn't as "skilled") just because they made an error of judgement.

And to you nya, It are people with an FPS mentallity that come here to get everyhting handed in their lap and want it all now that poison any good game (and I won't name any names in contradiction to some other person). It are also these people that feel hurt in their pride if they ever get 1 death on their slew... ooh noooooo it broke my perfect record... I'm no longer the elitists for which I presumed myself to be... Look at counterstrike and what it was at the beginning, and compare with what it is now... lets just say if you don't type like this 1337 you aren't part of the ubercool bunch. I have nowhere stated that I don't like swarms or rockets, I stated that I don't like the mentallity in which people are using them. A mentallity of get in shoot everyhting and get back out... what in th ehell has this got to do with any 'twitch' skill... you can just as well give these people an autobind to fire weapongroup1 every second as soon as they clik the activationfirebutton. And as soon as they see their ammo at zero, jump back out. And balancing running from not running is very difficult to do, reason why i would prefer the community to just not accept running as a viable tactic, it makes in my eyes the game much more enjoyable for all in stea dof having to ask the devs to try to balance it for running.

And pleae everybody else, don't bother reading this, its nothing special, purely directed towars nya:

Et nya si tu prefere parler en francais, je n'ai aucun probleme avec ca. mais je prefere, si tu veus, que tu fais un autre 'thread' dans off topic et on va faire une discussion dans tous ce que to pense que c'est pas ok avec mes idées et pensées.

I like Bryce Coulson's post. In fact I think any ship who is in a BP mission should be fair game, even after it leaves C10. Make it so that any ships who is in a BP mnission AND has jumped to C10, will count as a BP kill, so people are encouraged to chase.

Now, this will lead to some imbalance (since it is easier to chase Serco than the Itani who has their stations nearby), but I think we can all live with it for the moment. It is the Serco who are invading after all (think Battle of Britain : German pilots who bailed out over England would be captured, while the British pilots who bailed step right back into a new Spitfire).

This game needs more RP-ing, C10 is not a location for people to play Space Quake, it is a warzone and we should all treat it as such.

But Rene, why do you care so much that they do that (fire swarms and run)?

Can't you just ignore them, dodge the swarms and fight the people who don't do that?

>but if everybody uses that behaviour there will not be much fun left over

You often use this argument, but is it worth it? What is the likelyhood of everyone using swarm rags?

I don't do it, nor do most any of the people I reagularly interact with. Why not just let them have at it and do your own thing.

You're starting to confuse me because you lambast FPS mentality but then say things like death doesn't mean anything. You also malign game play that isn't twitch based. That also seems a little contrary to your point.

Can you post your view in less words maybe, for us simple minded folk?

hoax, if that seems to be the winning tactics, then everybody will use it eventually, just to stay competetive or not get plasterred all the time. And no, I can't dodge swarms that get shot at me from behind while im fighting other people, unless I boost a couple rounds for a little while.

I should probably put more time in my posts sigh, to make them more interpuntually correct. I say a death doesn't mean a thing in the game, contrary to the mentallity that many of these fps people have and for which 1 more death hurts their pride etc.

My point about twitch based gameplay was that even an autofirebind lets you shoot rockets/swarms in the way these people use them. So why bother even calling it twitch based gameplay where you try to shoot the rocket on the time you presume it to hit... not just blindly into space hoping it will hit. My point was that if people prefer the swarm/rocket spamming style of shooting then why do we need twitch based gameplay. Just incorperate a diebased hitscheme and let the die roll and hope on a hit and hit the button as quickly as you can to restart the dieroll.

I did my best to answer on your questions, it is pretty hard to make it even shorter without sacrificing any of my reasons :(.

I actually have to agree with everyone, i hate being shot in the ass by swarms, and I will moan about it at the time, but its usually my fault, ie, i have my music on too loud and dont hear the beeps, or just dont hit turbo fast enough.

If someone fires swarms at you and you die? heh, genka can dodge swarms in his bus, how do you feel now?

But hating increases the trashtalk even more, increasing the number of heated arguments, hurt feelings and just plain old grievances.

Which in fact make a lot of people shew channel 100. Heck I know people that turned off that channel because they got bored of it all and miss the times of having just a good talk or a fun conversation.

Yes, I could maybe also turn it off, but I'm sure that anybody has already noticed that if I'm online I have severe problems with not having people to talk to. Although i try to do my best to stay friendly the entire time, even if this person ticks me off.

PS: FM I don't know if this post has any meaning at all... so if it hasn't just delete it.

yeah! i can *almost* dodge swarms in teh bus, they dont turn THAT fast, and i mean come on, turn, turbo, resume fighting.

or if you like a bit of a challenge, do all your dodging as strafes...

Thanks Rene, I think I understand you better now.

I guess I'm just not as worried about it as you are. I would hate to see everyone flying swarm rags too, but it's not really useful for getting a lot of pk's (even if you can't dodge them Rene) so I don't see it taking over the whole game. I guess it could/has take/n over BP.

On the other hand I remember tri-flare griefing just as well as anyone here. It's hard to say that wasn't popular.

I think the root of the problem is running away though and not the rags or swarms. But many people argued that traders need to be able to run because some may not like to fight. Either it's easy to run or not.

I tend to side with Nya13 on this one. The game got a little to nerfed with the too much infini-boost too easy to jump action. Without the stress some of the fun goes missing.

IMO it was pretty great when you had to run to a wh to get out of a sector.

As to trash talking, I happen to like it. Feel free to call me lame if I just killed you. If you just killed me, it's not trash talking it's gloating, you shouldn't do that unless it was revenge. If I trash talk you and you don't like it then don't kill me next time and it won't happen ;)

if the traders dont want to fight then they need to stay in the safe areas claimed by thier nation, or hire escorts.

I am of the opinion that running away is far to easy at the moment also. my opinion, light fast ships should max out turbo speed quickly, burn through a lot of energy to maintain it over any distance, heavy ships should have significantly lower max turbo but be able to maintain it pretty much forever.

if there were a 50m/s turbo speed difference between a rag and a vulture (for example) the rag would be a lot less able to run away, and anyone using it for all homer setup would have to be working in a group.

I think I'll just hug Spellcast.

Spell even in the so called safe areas, traders are not perfectly safe. Not to mention the usefullness of escorts is highly overrated, you can easilly ignore most of them without a problem. Unless you are severely outgunned.

Fighting with a cargoload is suicide if your fighting anybody who is even remotely on the same level as you (being this good or bad). Therefore running still has to be a viable tactic, although I wouldn't mind seeing it getting made a bit harder. Even a lot harder in case they incorperate ways to make me able to get a decent moneylevel without having to do traderoutes. PVP can cost a lot of money. Especially for newbies needing to learn everything from scratch. Its not like we have these ships that are able for an investment of 30k to get a pure profit of 500k in 1 traderoute that takes 15 mins as we had during the special sector area. Although we could introduce cargoships that offer only runningoptions but no fightingcapabilities, although the ones with fightingcapabilities will be hard to balance and will prolly always need to be inferior to pure fighters that can carry no cargo.

Hoax, I can actually dodge them, but I'm mostly flying crappy combinations like rags or hornets or flare vults, heck even mauds :D. And then turning away from the person fighting you to dodge the swarms will kill you quite easilly if your fighting somebody who is decent. On the other side, I hav enever been a good fighter anyway, so it might also be somewhat my lack of skill or luck but ooh well...

And no it will not take over the entire game, but it has taken over in a loooooooooottt of groupfights. In one on ones they die easilly, but in groupfights they are annoying as hell and very common and its annoying as hell that they engage you always when you aren't paying attention (due to focussing on the people in front of you... can we please pretty please have a backview mirror) and are gone just when you dodged some of the swarms ready to take them out.

I think everyone who isn't being totally all-or-nothing has good points. I think some of the proposed solutions would help in the short term, but its a hard problem.

Its *hard* to make a game that has the exploring-the-vast-universe, escapist feel of an MMORPG, but includes skill-based combat and (hardest of all) keeps most people happy. Thats probably why I don't know of any other games like this. Its also why I love working here; I want to do something new and better. We actually have lots of ideas for how to satisfy everyone.

Seriously... we have some ideas I've never heard expressed anywhere. Both for how to manage people's differences of opinion about what the game "should" be and many more for how to keep each group interested overall. I'm not going to go into them, but I hope that I can convince a few upset people to stick around for the changes (or at least come back Soon(tm)). Some people who aren't playing regularly keep paying us because they see the potential; they will be rewarded, and between now and Soon(tm) won't have paid more than they would for another (crappy) game or two.

Ay it is, thats why i iterated the point that a quick fix would be based on the community to not accept or condone that behaviour. Or at least look down upon it.

And again I wanna take the time to highlight the tri-flare valks from the past(heh blast from the past :D), they were great at running, they were deadly as hell and where only done because of people accepting running as a plausible and good tactic (and because they were easy to use at what they did and were very hard to counter unless you knew exactly what you were doing all the time). That and because as I said a certain menthality played a roll.

Although I know that many people (not naming names) look back with regret to those days since for them they were their bread and butter. But that was an FPS era, not an RPG one. Or at least in my mind.

WOW-
/me agrees w/ whistler
/me disagrees w/ renegade
/me agrees with bryce
/me agres with ME!
ok- ive been in VO for 2 months- this is a role playing game- and you can take ANY aspect or ANY amount of seriousness that you want to. if you are upset that someone ran away from you --chase them-- if someone spams you and you cry, then learn to get better at defending yourself---rene says that dieing means nothing---well, /me disagrees I DONT LIKE DIEING - and i will run from you if i can- and if you are so high on yourself as being good- THEN CHASE ME!- and stop whining--if you chase me (and im a darn good runner) and blast me- /then thats my problem- not yours
- some of you guys whine so much--and its just because someone got the better of you-
-- you knwo what i could whine about pirates- i hate you guys :) so does that mean that i should quit the game or be upset?- NO- i figure out a way to get better and avoid them--
---it seems that more of the newer players have a better attitude about things-
--and alot of peeps act like BP or PVP is the only thing in VO--heck--i RARELY do pvp or BP and have been addicted to VO - there are do many things to do- and levelling isnt the only thing--
---summary----
stop whining about the way other players play--we get to do what we want--YOu figure out how to overcome that--that makes YOU better
---TO THE DEVS----great game- i am looking forward to what you have around the corner